Happy 30th Birthday to Star Wars!

[dlbpharmd]

I watched Legacy last night, and it was good, but really the only thing I got out of it was all the ways that Lucas screwed up with ROTJ.

[Seafoam Understone]

I watched Legacy last night, and it was good, but really the only thing I got out of it was all the ways that Lucas screwed up with ROTJ.

How so?

[dlbpharmd]

I watched Legacy last night, and it was good, but really the only thing I got out of it was all the ways that Lucas screwed up with ROTJ.

How so?

Well, I'm being extremely picky, but:

1. Ewoks

2. We learned in the prequels just how powerful Sidious is; yet in ROTJ he let's a weakened Vader pick him up and throw him into a chasm.

3. If Qui-gon taught Yoda and Obi-wan how to live on as Force ghosts, who taught Anakin? No way that Anakin should appear at the end with them.

[Usivius]

2. We learned in the prequels just how powerful Sidious is; yet in ROTJ he let's a weakened Vader pick him up and throw him into a chasm.

Well, I agree with #1 & 3, and I will bow to your SW knowledge and that your geekyness surpasses mine regarding this, but I'm not sure about #2. Vader was tired from his fight with Luke and had his hand lopped off, sure, but that's not why he died. Sideous threw horrendous amounds of force lightning in to his body while he picked up the Emperor and chucked him. That's why he eventually died. no?....

[aTOMiC]

Well, I'm being extremely picky, but:

1. Ewoks

2. We learned in the prequels just how powerful Sidious is; yet in ROTJ he let's a weakened Vader pick him up and throw him into a chasm.

3. If Qui-gon taught Yoda and Obi-wan how to live on as Force ghosts, who taught Anakin? No way that Anakin should appear at the end with them.

Okay, regarding your three points, dlbpharmd...

1. Couldn't agree more but over time I've come to accept the teddy bears from hell. Somewhat.

2. For all the Emperor's "foresight" he failed to predict that Anakin would turn on him at the last moment. I believe that sudden suprise was all Vader needed to be able to complete his task. Remember that in spite of the apparent beating Anakin took from Luke, he couldn't have been harmed so severely by that alone. I'm certain Palpatine unleashed his full power at Vader while he was being attacked. It just wasn't enough to save him from his just reward.

3. The Anakin thing is kind of a sticky bit. Had the prequels not existed we'd have just accepted that once you rise to a certain level, all Jedi become wraiths, but since the point was raised by Yoda as being some kind of breakthrough by Qui-Gon then things have just gotten confusing.

IMHO of course.

[Seafoam Understone]

3. The Anakin thing is kind of a sticky bit. Had the prequels not existed we'd have just accepted that once you rise to a certain level, all Jedi become wraiths, but since the point was raised by Yoda as being some kind of breakthrough by Qui-Gon then things have just gotten confusing.

IMHO of course.

Well humble opinions are the fodder of discussion boards like these.

It does seem to be a big loophole that Lucas and company have overlooked. But then again Palpatine had hinted at the knowledge in ROtS (ep.3) talking about (his master) but not letting Annie know that the Jedi actually in fact did have access to this knowledge as well as the Sith, or at least that they recently discovered it.
A cop out would be that Palpatine had taught that skill to Vader between episodes. There seems to be a good time period gap between episodes so...

Funny thing though, how Lucas inserted Hayden Christensen at the end of ep. 6 showing the "young Anakin" instead of the old. Oh but of course the young Annie wasn't corrupted and hadn't turned into Vader, regardless of the fact that it was a young Annie that slaughtered the Jedi Academy ... yet Luke asserts that "I feel the good in you Father..." meaning that it never left and thus was with Vader throughout just repressed deeply.

Loopholes, plotholes gaps and blank spaces... all part of the mystery of writing science fiction.

[Cagliostro]

1. I kinda liked the Ewoks. And I was old enough to know better. I do have to admit that I hated the Ewok Adventures and its ilk. But in ROTJ, I could take them.

2. I guess I kinda buy it in hindsight. Hell, if he was in his younger days, ol' Palp could leap out of there, right? But then again, as was said, the surprise. Not to mention that he could have been weakened by using the force power and such. In Ep. 3, didn't he seem tired after using it on Mace Windu? Then again, that also seemed like a ploy, so I dunno.

3. Well, didn't Qui-gon learn it from [spooky voice] BEYOND THE GRAVE [/spooky voice]?

My issues with ROTJ are as follows:

1. As much as I love Jim Henson's work, a little overkill with the Muppets in this one. The Ewoks didn't seem quite as Muppety as, say, the one creature that eats another one, then burps, on Tatooine. And the Gamorrean Guards looked too much of Jim Henson. Dunno...just brought me out of it more than Yoda did. It became a little too...cute, and just didn't belong.
2. Harrison Ford was underutilized and seems like he was just phoning it in. Or maybe he just stopped being a scoundrel, and that's what made him interesting.
3. Boba Fett died "like a bitch," to quote Samuel L. Jackson.
4. The Luke & Leia as twins REALLY struck me as soap opera-like. I guess that's what Lucas was after, but it always felt like a betrayal to me. It never seemed to fit after the first two movies. Maybe it's just the weird incestual thing that never sit well either. I've come to accept it, but it seemed like I never liked Star Wars as much after this movie. Vader was Luke's father...okay, okay, sure...that was a bit of a stretch that I could accept, but Luke and Laura...sorry, Leia twins? Just dumb.
5. There was no tension between Han and Luke about Han making the moves on his woman. That's what I found so interesting in Empire, and I wanted to see how this would play out. Oh, she's your sister....okay, now I can be with her. How convenient.
6. Probably the biggest point that bugged me - the Emperor I found annoying. He was all sneery and evil and stuff, which I dislike in a villian, but the biggest annoyance was him coaching Luke. "Yeah, Luke...get all angry...that leads to the Dark Side. Oh, you aren't going to do it? Okay, well, do this then...that leads to the Dark Side. No...seriously...do this...because it leads to the Dark Side. Oh, I failed by making my intentions obvious? Okay, well, then, I'll have to kill you." Stupid. One of the best bits in the prequels was seeing him all sneaky and underhanded, yet remaining serene and convincing. Then, when he outs himself as a Sith, he becomes annoying and sneery again.

Awright...that's my run down of ROTJ. I can post my list of what is wrong with the prequels as well.

[Seafoam Understone]

Cagliostro... good points.
ROTJ was a bit errr... childish and that's probably due to marketing to children... since the action-figures and other stuff was selling like MAD and Lucas and company were obviously making boo-koos of money they wanted to make sure that kids will be screaming: "I WANT STAR WARS TOYS FOR CHRISTMAS!!!!" Regardless of the fact that they were selling nicely anyway... just call it greed. Thus.... the cutesy Ewoks, and so forth... what the hell do you think Jar-jar was for? Not to mention having a 10 year old kid kick off the series in Phantom Menace? Probably some moron had a push-pedal pod-racer all ready to go so kids can imagine they're winning the race... "it's workiiinnngg it's worrrkiiinnnggg!! " (imo) another stupid line.
Oh and DON'T get me started on that weally really cute scene in TPM where Yoda is teaching all those cute widdle kids how to play with their lightsabers... tell me THAT isn't a marketing ploy.

Definitely the pussification of Han Solo in ROTJ was another let-down. In ANH he was hard-core and just the "I live by my name" scoundrel that a lot of people loved. ESB he kinda softened up but still gave the impression that he'd slap you silly if you looked cross-eyed at him. Maybe being frozen in Carbonite wussed him up... who knows?

Lando could've been harder as well in ROTJ. With ESB every move he made was designed to cover his ass. Go ahead and rescue Chewie and Leia because they'll take him to a place of safety... oh and of course help out Han to keep Chewie from pulling his neck out of his socket as opposed to his arms. With ROTJ he could've shown more vindictiveness towards the Empire for screwing up his cushy operation. I mean man! He had it made there on Bespin.

Palpatine was definitely written as an over-the-top villian in ROTJ then "calmed down" for the prequels until he revealed himself as a Sith Lord which were supposed to be all corrupted and mad with power and pissed at the Jedi's type of guys.

Sigh, soon as I get my word processor fixed (need to re-install it) I think I'm going to take the task of re-writing the prequels. There's not a lot I would change about the coming of the Empire... THAT was done very well, but the whole Anakin/Kenobi/Padame triangle could've been done a hellva lot better, more realistically adult. IMO. I mean think about it. Padame had to been roughly 16-18 yrs. old in TPM and Annie was 10... now jump forward in time AOC and now Anakin is 17-19 yrs. old this would make Padame roughly 25-26... is she really going to be interested in a teen-ager? Especially a whiny teenager who boasts "I will be the most powerful Jedi Ever!" and "I will stop people from dying!"... an older wiser woman would know how unrealistic and vain that is... and he confesses to the slaughter of the Sand-people? She let that go? Innocent young ones? The females? I think she would've sighed at the slaughter of all the males but the whole village? That shows she wasn't as life-loving as she was made out to be. Sorry I can't buy that. Somebody kills my mother then I'd want to kill those responsible and only those responsible... not the whole village... Anakin was probably the Star Wars equivalent of General Custer.

[Usivius]

yah, these boarsd are great for this type of venting...
hehehe

Oh and DON'T get me started on that weally really cute scene in TPM where Yoda is teaching all those cute widdle kids how to play with their lightsabers... tell me THAT isn't a marketing ploy.

I dunno ... it fits... They kept saying in ESB that Luke was too old to begin training... We knew already that the kids started young.
Your gripe that tey are using 'live' lightsabres' so young is valid however...

[dlbpharmd]

Your gripe that tey are using 'live' lightsabres' so young is valid however...

Somewhere, I read that younglings learned saber technique with a "powered-down" lightsaber, thus avoiding serious injury.

[Cagliostro]

About the Ewoks - Lucas did want some undeveloped force to knock down the Empire, but originally he was thinking Wookies. I wish he would have stuck with that, but oh well. Yeah, they were cute, but it does make you wonder if Lucas had the story in mind, or his share of action figure sales in mind. Hard to say.

And I certainly agree about Lando, though it made some sense as he felt bad about Han and wanted to make things right. His change made sense, though he did certainly become bland as well.

As far as the prequels go, here's my list.

1. Jar Jar. I don't think I'm as hard on him as many others, as I found him a bit funny occasionally, but...yeah...didn't fit what was established elsewhere.

2. There was an attempt to explain the magical. Biggest crime in my opinion. Let the mystical remain the mystical, and don't give us that there are things in someone's blood that determine how much power with the force they have. Just rancid bad.

3. The Star Wars universe had always seemed to be a whole other place, with a passing resemblance to our world. This was broken in TPM several times, with probably the most annoying being the race with the announcer that did that head bob dance thingy that was popular at the time for celebration. HATED THAT. Don't bring us back to our world. This is pure escapism, dumbass. Hated those moments more than any Jar Jar scene I could think of. Same with Ep. 2 when someone offers them death sticks or something. Anti-smoking/anti-drug message? Leave it out of Star Wars, I say!

4. I feel bad for the little kid who played Anakin in TPM, as he has taken a lot of crap. But unfortunately, it is completely warranted. I still can't decide if it is his fault, or George's. I blame the director, though the kid definitely stunk up Ep 1.

5. And speaking of the director, why did he have to direct the prequels? Empire was the best movie of the original 3, and it was directed by someone else with Lucas strong on the reins. Which is fine. But Lucas just isn't a director of people, and his dialogue suffers terribly, or rather most of us suffer terribly. But he really should have let someone else direct, suited well to what was going on in the movies. Then tragedies like that flat sounding "yahoo!" wouldn't have happened in TPM, which should have been edited right out of the final film if the kid couldn't hit something that sounded genuine. Or that "Noooooooo!!!" at the end of the Ep. 3 wouldn't make me laugh uncomfortably each time I hear it.

6. Evil = yellow contact lenses.

All in all, the action was good, the story for the most part was good, it just suffered in several significant ways. Mainly, if Lucas had relinquished some control, it would have been better. Shining moments: Darth Maul (who is goofy lookin') lightsabre duel, Yoda kicking ass, the clones, giving Samuel L. Jackson a big role, the final shots of Ep. 3, particularly on Tatooine.

[Usivius]

2. There was an attempt to explain the magical. Biggest crime in my opinion. Let the mystical remain the mystical, and don't give us that there are things in someone's blood that determine how much power with the force they have. Just rancid bad.

Absolutely! My number one complaint about it. (midiclorines ... or whatever ... )
second being your "our world" references. Very astute.

I loved Darth Maul. To bring him in as the first Sith to ever be seen and then have him kick two Jedi butts! That was fantastic. It was probably one fo the best fight (sword-play) sequences shot in history (two others that come to mind are the Errol Flynn's final battle in "Adventures of Robin Hood" and the two chicks in "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon".) I love a fight sequence where you can SEE the action, where the camera pans with the action --- not cutting every 0.3 seconds...
(Great choice on Lucas' part)

[Seafoam Understone]

On Darth Maul (what the hell kind of name is THAT anyway)... yeah the fight scene with the dual lightsaber and two jedi's was very very nicely done. Good choreography and camera work with that... but yeah... he was goofy looking alright but it was a weak attempt to have him look sinister. They could've totally mucked him up by making him a snake-person or something else. So he kinda has to grow on you. But pluzzzeee what's with the chopper bike/speeder thing... oh all bad guys (and potential bad-guys) ride motorcycle type vehicles? SIGH...

Yes far too many parallels with Earth to make it truly Sci-Fi.
The dual headed Pod-race commentator was another reason I wanted to walk out of the theater. It still irks me that a 10 year-old kid has the ability to handle a vehicle going plus 700 mph (or was it kpm?) through narrow twisty canyons and all of that... "he had the force" cop out it still wasn't able to be swallowed.

Boss Nass could've been done much much better, though he was okay considering what they had to work with. The rest of the gungans were good though. Jar-jar obviously was the village idiot of the lot. But then they (LucasFilms) probably knew that and decided to give him more serious roles in the later prequels... SIGH! Should've let him remain as an unhappy memory rather than try to redeem him.

The Fetts. SIGH another sell out to the kids by introducing Boba as a child (never mind that he's a clone of Jango) just the fact that he's a surly mean spirited kid and was directing his senior clone on what to do... "okay...now... FIRE!" Plus giving him a reason to hate Jedi's... what is the point of that? A bounty hunter is a bounty hunter and they don't need to hate anyone in particular to be cold-blooded killers/hunters. Sheesh.
Better to have not given Boba Fett a background and remain a mysterious bounty hunter who gets killed off in ROTJ. Otherwise they'd have to do the same with that lizard guy, IG-88, that ugly towel headed dude and the bug-man from ESB. Oh but of course it was Fett that found Solo and captured him. Big deal.

Seems that LucasFilms was trying to explain everything in the prequels. But with Sci-fi it's not always necessary to do so.... isn't it? Some of the stuff... yeah. But it's always fun to speculate on some of the little stuff rather than have them explained.

[Cagliostro]

Yeah...I forgot one of my biggest gripes, which is entitled, "It's A Small Universe After All." Vader made C3PO and hung with R2D2? Yoda hangin' with Chewie?

Blah..

[Seafoam Understone]

Yeah...I forgot one of my biggest gripes, which is entitled, "It's A Small Universe After All." Vader made C3PO and hung with R2D2? Yoda hangin' with Chewie?

Blah..

Exactly. I mean C'MON!

[Avatar]

I read in awe. Great posts folks and good points. I'll never dislike the prequels like some do, but y'all have thought about this stuff.

--A

[Usivius]

yah. (sigh)

[Seafoam Understone]

I read in awe. Great posts folks and good points. I'll never dislike the prequels like some do, but y'all have thought about this stuff.

--A

Ya, a clear indication that some of us need to get a life...

...after all it IS just a movie... isn't it?

[matrixman]

Tremendous posting, Seafoam and Cagliostro!

My issues with ROTJ are as follows:
2. Harrison Ford was underutilized and seems like he was just phoning it in. Or maybe he just stopped being a scoundrel, and that's what made him interesting.
3. Boba Fett died "like a bitch," to quote Samuel L. Jackson.
5. There was no tension between Han and Luke about Han making the moves on his woman. That's what I found so interesting in Empire, and I wanted to see how this would play out. Oh, she's your sister....okay, now I can be with her. How convenient.

I totally agree on these points. Ford sleepwalked through the film. Spot-on observation about the lack of tension between Han and Luke. I thought the battle at the Pit of Sarlaac was very exciting and well-done overall, but it was a very lame end for such a cool character as Boba Fett. ROTJ was riddled with many weak moments. Imo, the movie did have splendid things like the final space battle and Luke's fight with dear old dad and a few other scattered highlights...but in the end, Jedi fell far short of the greatness achieved in Empire, and that's a pity, because Empire provided so much rich story material to work with.

Definitely the pussification of Han Solo in ROTJ was another let-down. In ANH he was hard-core and just the "I live by my name" scoundrel that a lot of people loved. ESB he kinda softened up but still gave the impression that he'd slap you silly if you looked cross-eyed at him. Maybe being frozen in Carbonite wussed him up... who knows?

pussification? Er, yeah, Han became kind of a wimp in ROTJ. Note to all space smugglers: If you don't want to lose your scoundrel charm, avoid Carbonite at all costs!

Lando could've been harder as well in ROTJ. With ESB every move he made was designed to cover his ass. Go ahead and rescue Chewie and Leia because they'll take him to a place of safety... oh and of course help out Han to keep Chewie from pulling his neck out of his socket as opposed to his arms. With ROTJ he could've shown more vindictiveness towards the Empire for screwing up his cushy operation. I mean man! He had it made there on Bespin.

Well said! I also felt Lando had turned wimpy in ROTJ...maybe he got sprayed unawares by Carbonite back on Cloud City. Heck, maybe everyone got hit by the stuff - I mean, they were all standing around the Carbonite pit, right? Fett turned wimpy, Vader turned wimpy, Leia looks stoned throughout ROTJ...I think we've underestimated the Carbonite Effect.

We learned in the prequels just how powerful Sidious is; yet in ROTJ he let's a weakened Vader pick him up and throw him into a chasm.

Way before the prequels, I always had a problem with how the Emperor was killed with such apparent ease by Anakin/Vader - just pick up the bad guy and throw him down a shaft, never mind that the bad guy in question happens to be a supreme master of the Force, regardless of Dark or Light. I kind of accept the explanation of Usivius and others, but still...come on, did Palpatine suddenly forget that he could just raise himself back up from the chasm? I thought levitation was a basic "trick" that even a weakened Jedi could perform. (It was one of the very first things that Yoda taught Luke back on Dagobah.)

The Star Wars universe had always seemed to be a whole other place, with a passing resemblance to our world. This was broken in TPM several times, with probably the most annoying being the race with the announcer that did that head bob dance thingy that was popular at the time for celebration. HATED THAT. Don't bring us back to our world. This is pure escapism, dumbass. Hated those moments more than any Jar Jar scene I could think of. Same with Ep. 2 when someone offers them death sticks or something. Anti-smoking/anti-drug message? Leave it out of Star Wars, I say!

I could not agree more, the pod race announcer annoyed me as much (if not more) than Jar-Jar himself.

Re: the "kiddie" factor of Jake Lloyd as young Anakin - I actually liked him in Phantom Menace. I more or less accepted that he could pilot a pod race because, well, I guess I buy into the SW mythos that anyone named Skywalker can pretty much pilot anything in his sleep.

But, anyway, today I put on ANH to to celebrate its 30th anniversary. It's been a while since I actually last watched it - er, close to 6 months. Okay, so the experience of watching Star Wars: A New Hope today will never quite match the cosmic euphoria I felt all those years ago, but it remains one of the all-time "feel good" movies.

[aTOMiC]

We learned in the prequels just how powerful Sidious is; yet in ROTJ he let's a weakened Vader pick him up and throw him into a chasm.

Way before the prequels, I always had a problem with how the Emperor was killed with such apparent ease by Anakin/Vader - just pick up the bad guy and throw him down a shaft, never mind that the bad guy in question happens to be a supreme master of the Force, regardless of Dark or Light. I kind of accept the explanation of Usivius and others, but still...come on, did Palpatine suddenly forget that he could just raise himself back up from the chasm? I thought levitation was a basic "trick" that even a weakened Jedi could perform. (It was one of the very first things that Yoda taught Luke back on Dagobah.)

As far as I know (and I'm willing to be wrong about this) I don't believe Jedi/sith can fly or they'd be doing it all the time. Being thrown down a near bottomless chasm, that is filled with powerful, arcing energy, is probably not something anyone could simply "levitate" their way out of. There is also the possiblity that Anakin/Vader was in turn exerting "force" back against Palpatine during his attack. Just because you didn't see tendrils of force coming from Vader doesn't mean he wasn't fighting back in kind.
IMHO.