Fire Lions in Book One?

[matrixman]

Very interesting quip from SRD, Wayfriend. Thanks!

However, I never pictured the Fire-Lions as rock-like, but as, um, fire and lava. I guess I took the name at face value. Sigh. Did I have it wrong all these years? Darn you, Mr. D.

But this bring about a new question. It was Bannor who made Covenant's ring touch the Staff of Law. This started the lava flow. The Bloodguard seem to have more knowledge than they let on to. Plus the ability for memories to be past on generation to generations they may know (or feel that they know) all there is what Earthpower is.

Has anybody else come to that conclusion?

Yes, I think most of us suspect that the Bloodguard harboured more than a few secrets about various things, which they kept from the new Lords. But in Bannor's case regarding the fire-lions, he had overheard Mhoram talking to Covenant about how the white gold could unlock the power of the Staff, so he was merely following through by hauling Covenant's sorry ass over to the Staff. Whether or not Bannor had any foreknowledge of the firelion-Staff-white gold relationship is something we'll just never know, as it was rendered moot anyway.

[Avatar]

Then of course I havn't read anywhere on the world where the land exists any real lions being around.

Well, there is mention of an Eland stew in Runes, and I'm willing to accept that if they have Eland, they have Lions.

For them as care and don't know, this is an Eland. Pity there's nothing to give scale, adult males weigh up to a metric ton. This is the biggest antelope in Africa.

--A

[Relayer]

Then of course I havn't read anywhere on the world where the land exists any real lions being around.

Well, there is mention of an Eland stew in Runes, and I'm willing to accept that if they have Eland, they have Lions.

They certainly have griffins...

[Marv]

Remember the flood that Elrond started to scare the black riders off in TLOTR? The water manifested itself into a load of charging stalions. That's how I saw the lava and the fire lions. Suppose I got it wrong, though.

[wayfriend]

However, I never pictured the Fire-Lions as rock-like, but as, um, fire and lava. I guess I took the name at face value. Sigh. Did I have it wrong all these years? Darn you, Mr. D.

I'm in the same boat. I always imagined them pure fire (no lava), just big and red-orange fireballs, leaping from rock to rock. A logical relation to the Wraiths of Andelain, as gorillas to capuchin.

But, you have to give credit: whatever SRD imagined, he described them with just the right amount of specificity. We all can enjoy our own idea of them. Perfectly done. The lack of a detailed description enforces the idea that no one on that mountainside had time to look closely, and no one was familiar enough with them to have preconceptions.

- - - - -

BTW, I'm not suspicious of Banner here.

"We are the Bloodguard." Bannor's voice was almost inaudible through the loud lust of the Cavewights. "We cannot permit this end."

Firmly, he took Covenant's hand and placed it on the Staff of Law, midway between Prothall's straining knuckles.

I don't think Banner planned any specific result. I don't even think he intended that Covenant do something. I think he ONLY intended that Covenant's power be added to Prothall's, to give the High Lord more power to achieve their salvation. He had seen this happen before.

I don't even think that Covenent "called them" in any specific way. I think that the Fire Lions merely detected the wild magic when it was shouted on that mountainside. Perhaps they even sensed desperation in it's weilder. Respecting the wild magic, they chose to come forth and led aid.

[drew]

I pictured them; simalar to the part in the Fellowship of the Ring (By JRR Tolkien) when Frodo sees the river flowing at the Nazgul, and it looks like charging horses..only with fire lava...and lions.

Then

Remember the flood that Elrond started to scare the black riders off in TLOTR? The water manifested itself into a load of charging stalions. That's how I saw the lava and the fire lions. Suppose I got it wrong, though.

Heh---great minds think alike.

[Marv]

I pictured them; simalar to the part in the Fellowship of the Ring (By JRR Tolkien) when Frodo sees the river flowing at the Nazgul, and it looks like charging horses..only with fire lava...and lions.

Then

Remember the flood that Elrond started to scare the black riders off in TLOTR? The water manifested itself into a load of charging stalions. That's how I saw the lava and the fire lions. Suppose I got it wrong, though.

Heh---great minds think alike.

Haha! So true!

[rusmeister]

I've always felt that the Fire-Lions are somehow a less natural part of the Covenant mythos, more of an artificial creation to serve one purpose - as a deus ex machina at the end of the first book. Kind of like creatures (a computer) waiting for a magic spell (a program launch) that lets them run down a mountain (and presumably jump back into the fiery pit when they're finished, unless they really are just a form of lava eruption that cools and dries).

Creations that grow into something larger are at first not so big, and the creators (authors, directors...) don't know that this story that they are creating will be successful, just as George Lucas didn't know that Star Wars would take off, so you ultimately have 2 Death Stars, whereas if he had known that it would be so popular and had the funding guaranteed to make six movies, the original film would probably have been done a little differently.

I just feel that LFB was seen initially as a stand-alone creation, in which the Fire-Lions could go without much explanation, be simply a mystery, because so much else would, too. That has become more difficult as the Land has become more clearly defined.

Does anyone have solid knowledge that Donaldson had definite plans (and guarantees of payment) to write at least the first series as we have it now?

"The doom of any rationalization is upon the heads of the fans. Our work is not enough for us. We need to weary ourselves with the burden of gods."

Maybe one of our burdens is the rationalization of stuff that isn't explained and doesn't quite fit?

[wayfriend]

Yes, it's fairly well known that SRD envisioned the first Chronicles as a trilogy before he started writing it, and that he wrote all three books before any of them were published.

[rusmeister]

Thanks, Wayfriend. I'll concede that without a struggle. But the F-Ls still seem to be one thing that does not quite naturally fit into SRD's work, (I'll withhold comment on the 3rd series) when everything else, even the Forestals and Colossus, do.

[Relayer]

I know what you mean, in some ways they do seem like a deus ex machina, but it had been set up when we heard about them earlier in the story of Berek. And since TC is a "reborn Berek" it makes some sense for the Fire Lions to reappear.

In fact, there's an interesting parallel I just thought of...

-- the Earthpower spoke to Berek, who vowed to fight for the Earth -- and then the Fire Lions were released by the Earthpower to defeat his enemies.

-- in LFB Bannor, whose Vow was sealed by the Earthpower, acted on behalf of the Unbeliever. The Earthpower again released the Fire Lions.

When you consider the plot lines created in LFB, it's pretty clear that the next two books had to happen. LFB could stand alone (unlike ending with, for example, the Illearth War) but whether we realized it or not, there were so many issues -- TC's answer to unbelief, Lena/family/Ranyhyn, the fate of the Giants, the outcome of Foul's original prophecy - that SRD couldn't have envisioned it as only LFB.

[wayfriend]

The Fire Lions are singular, but the don't fit any less (to me) than Earthblood, or the One Tree, or the Illearth Stone, etc.

[matrixman]

I know what you mean, in some ways they do seem like a deus ex machina, but it had been set up when we heard about them earlier in the story of Berek. And since TC is a "reborn Berek" it makes some sense for the Fire Lions to reappear.

In fact, there's an interesting parallel I just thought of...

-- the Earthpower spoke to Berek, who vowed to fight for the Earth -- and then the Fire Lions were released by the Earthpower to defeat his enemies.

-- in LFB Bannor, whose Vow was sealed by the Earthpower, acted on behalf of the Unbeliever. The Earthpower again released the Fire Lions.

Neat!

I didn't have a problem with the Fire-Lions myself. They didn't seem out of place to me. As Relayer said, they had been set up earlier in the story. SRD didn't pull some unknown thing out of the hat at the last minute. The Fire-Lions form a kind of poetic book-end to the Berek myth - the Fire-Lions are this great legend out of that distant past suddenly come roaring back to life.

[iQuestor]

I just re-read White Gold Wielder, and saw a passage I didnt remember -- it was when Linden was perceiving Mount Thunder after the new staff was formed, it described the fate of the ravers, and the ur-viles witnessing Vain's successful transformation, and upward:

At the peak, Fire-Lions crouched, waiting in eternal immobility for the invocation of life.

[wayfriend]

I remember that - they weren't forgotten. That points somewhat to them not being a kludge. That quote makes me wonder if we will see them again ... maybe SRD had a vivid description handy because he recently wrote about them.