Virtues & Vices

[Cail]

The difference is that GTA is entertainment. If anyone actually acted in that manner, they'd be hauled away toot sweet (sic).

Prebe's right, we have an unbelievably puritanical culture that has a violence fetish.

[Lord Mhoram]

It is entertainment, but Plissken is saying that it's entertainment that is a reaction against American culture. I think it's a reflection of it. We have aspects of a puritanical culture - the nipple ridiculousness is a good example of that - but we have a cultural fetish for more than just violence. Conservative Muslims, for example, are appalled by the content of our advertising and the sexual content in our films and television.

[Cail]

Have you ever seen European advertising? Our stuff is tame in comparison.

How is GTA a reflection of our culture? That sort of behavior isn't condoned by society, other than the "thug life" proponents, who are not representative of mainstream society and culture.

[Lord Mhoram]

It may be a puritanical culture in comparison to western Europe's, but as you point out, that isn't saying much. As for GTA, would any other culture that didn't have such an intense penchant for violence be able to produce such a thing?

[Cail]

It's certainly possible.

But that doesn't answer the question. How is the behavior which GTA glorifies a reflection of our society?

[Plissken]

Having a penchant for violence isn't the same as acting it out in the real world. Anyway, we aren't violent as a culture, so much as terrified. We're taught to be scared of our children, our neighbors, sex, our neighbor's sex, what we eat, our own basest drives - hell, we're taught to be scared of the words that might come out of our own mouths.

That's what our entertainment is for. Whether through onscreen avatar, or through the flinty eyes of the square-jawed, straight talking, straight-shooting, over-sexed film star, we get to live as the heroes (or villains) we suspect we would be, given the chance.

[Cail]

Exactly.

How many wannabe John McClanes have leaped off of high-rise roofs with a fire hose wrapped around their waist?

[Lord Mhoram]

Plissken,

I have a very hard time conceiving the most militaristic culture in the West as somehow suppressed. I think that the symptoms you are talking about, Plissken, are more the reflections of an overly "sophisticated" society in which animalistic tendencies are not sufficiently realized. This is a universal in the 21st century. Comparatively, in terms of Western society, American culture glorifies violence to a startling degree.

Cail,

How goes GTA reflect American culture? Take a look at American gun laws.

[Cail]

How goes GTA reflect American culture? Take a look at American gun laws.

This does not answer the question. American gun laws have nothing to do with stealing cars and beating people up in a video game.

[Lord Mhoram]

You're being too specific about it. Those other things are just what makes GTA so crazily extreme. The gun laws have a lot to do with why American kids want to play the part of an armed criminal.

[emotional leper]

Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security. -- Bene Gesserit Coda

[Lord Mhoram]

Emotional Leper,

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html

Of these, which do you think has the laxest gun control laws?

[Cail]

Care to explain that, in light that the gun laws are more restrictive now than they were 50 years ago, yet this sort of violence didn't play then?

BTW, I'm not being specific at all. You're trying to draw some nebulous comparison between gun laws and video games. I'm trying to figure out where the Hell you're coming from. You say that GTA is a reflection of society (our gun laws), but you don't address the obvious inconsistency with my above point. Furthermore, you accuse me of being too specific when I mention stealing cars (the game is called Grand Theft Auto, you know).

Again, point me to something in society that says it's OK to beat people up, steal their car, and shoot up stuff, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Lord Mhoram]

Cail,

Care to explain that, in light that the gun laws are more restrictive now than they were 50 years ago, yet this sort of violence didn't play then?

That's a good question. But looking at that list, I see England/Wales very near to the bottom, and the UK has fairly strict gun control laws (in comparison to ours. I only mention them because besides the US they're the only country's gun laws I know anything in detail about). I think it would be fallacious to suggest that suppressing gun use will not lead to lower gun-related deaths. I think it would.

You say that GTA is a reflection of society (our gun laws), but you don't address the obvious inconsistency with my above point.

But you aren't addressing my point, which is that a society that has lax gun laws and values the gung-ho attitude (which America undoubtedly does) will invariably produce GTA-esque material.

Again, point me to something in society that says it's OK to beat people up, steal their car, and shoot up stuff, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly.

I'm not saying it's okay to do it in America. We just shoot people a lot more often here than they do in other industrialized countries. They have stricter gun laws. We have violence in our entertainment. There's no correlation there?

[emotional leper]

I was brought up with guns around the house. So were my parents and my grandparents. From an early age, I was introduced to guns, how to care for and handle them, and how to use them. And when to use them. I fully appreciate and know exactly what a small metal slug and grains of black powder do to the Human Body.

The problem is not gun control. The problem is society. If you do not ingrain a respect for human life, and the belief that violence, not only being a last resort, but a shameful failing, then of course you have gun related violence. Look at the 'Gangster' culture, which glorifies violence, drug use, degredation of women, and lack of respect for the authorities. Is it any suprise there is a corelation between persons of all ethnicities who embrace this culture and the behaviours it espouses?

If you condition a group of people, whether it is a sub-culture or a nation, to not respect 'the sanctity of human life,' and to regard violence as anything but a last resort to problems, of course you have an increase in people killing each other.

[Lord Mhoram]

I agree. And what better way to ingrain respect for life than to make weaponry that takes life away as difficult to acquire as possible?

[Avatar]

Shifted to the Close, obviously.

Interesting posts. Yes, America is puritanical. At least in so far as public trends seem to lean. What do you expect from a nation founded by a bunch of puritans?

Are things like GTA a symptom of an expression of the culture? Maybe. I'm not exactly sure what argument is being made there to be honest. Are you saying that things like that exist because of the glorified nature of violence? But then, perhaps the fact that agression is a vice (because I agree with Pliss that it is), which makes necessary this sort of catharsis?

As for reducing gun deaths by limiting gun use...well...you can't limit gun use, you can only limit ownership. Of course, the people who want to use guns to kill other people are unlikely to respect laws saying that they can't own guns.

Switzerland. Nearly 3 times less gun deaths per 100,000. And a gun in virtually every house.

As EL says, it's not about gun control, it's about society. Or social eduication if you prefer.

--A

[balon!]

From the perspective of a member of the generation that GTA and other games like it are marketed to, I'll try to give my perspective.

I think that America is BOTH puritanical AND reflected in the swarm of hugely violent media. It's just that they're involved in different areas of our country.

The puritanical side is easily portrayed by most of the adults who were raised by my grandparents generation. Work hard, be serious and stoic, etc...

Whereas the reflection of violence is coming from MY generation; the ones who think such things are funny. I can't tell you how many times I've had to cut ties with some people I used to respect because I am disgusted by the way they think that blowing someones head off with a rifle to steal their car or watching in a movie some person being abducted and then tortured to death is humorous.

I've thought for a long time, and I STILL haven't been able to pin this uprising of violent humor on any one thing. Mostly, because I ALSO remember that WE were the ones who grew up on the Smurfs and David the Gnome. How did we move so far from one end of the spectrum to the other? I don't know, and to be quite honest, I'm beginning to think that I'm not sure if I want to.

[Cail]

Again LM, I think you're making untenable leaps in logic. Like EL said, there are plenty of people in this country who were raised around firearms who would never, ever think of shooting anyone unless they or a loved one were threatened with grave bodily harm.

Rather the issue is a casual disregard for human life. Do whatever you want with the gun laws, that's not going to change, nor would it have anything to do with the genesis of games like GTA.

[Avatar]

Yeah, I pretty much agree. (And you guys think you have a casual disregard for the value of life? Should try it in Africa. )

--A