Elohim's opposition to vain

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Post by Xar »

burgs, I suspect that the ur-Viles knew about the Elohim through their own lore... given that their lore is not the same as Earthpower, we cannot know its limitations. In fact, we don't know much about their lore at all, except that part of it is the spawning of more creatures (ur-Viles and Waynhim, mostly, but also Vain) and the spewing of vitriolic acid when concentrated into a wedge. But then again,
Spoiler
we've seen something more about their lore in Runes.
In any case, I suspect that even if they knew of the Elohim, they might not necessarily have counted on them. Perhaps they thought that in the worst case scenario (in which TC and the others wouldn't reach Elemesnedene) wild magic could somehow supply to the absence of Earthpower.

There is also, of course, another possibility. Foamfollower was "given" Vain so that he could pass him on to Covenant. He clearly says this when he meets Covenant in Andelain. This suggests that the ur-Viles actually communicated with him, at least, so they could present Vain to him (in particular, explain about the command word and so on). I seriously doubt that Foamfollower counted as one of the ur-Viles's Dead, so this must mean that: either the Dead could manifest in Andelain without need for their "caller" to be there, or the ur-Viles could somehow summon the dead and/or communicate with them through their lore. If this is true, it isn't a stretch to imagine that the ur-Viles learned something from the Dead in the same way as Covenant was cryptically warned about his voyage: it is even possible that the ur-Viles consulted with the Dead and learned from them that Covenant would leave the Land in search of a new Staff of Law, and that he would do it in the company of giants. Remember also that the ur-Viles were not overtly hostile during the time of the Old Lords, so they might have had contact with Giants back then (in fact, they didn't become hostile until Lord Foul betrayed the Council, at which point they became his tools). Then it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to use logic to reach the following conclusions:

1) No one in the Land knows how to make a Staff of Law or where the One Tree is;
2) The only way for TC to leave the Land is with Giantish help;
3) The Giants dealt with the Elohim in the past, and knew of their capabilities and knowledge;

therefore

5) The Giants would lead TC to the Elohim to find out where the One Tree was, or how the Staff of Law could be forged.

Since we don't know exactly the depths of the ur-Viles' lore, it is possible that they might have deduced the whole thing out of the same kind of cryptic remarks the Dead gave to Covenant.

Ok, so that might explain why Vain was created and how the ur-Viles could know about the Elohim. But why did the Elohim attempt to destroy Vain when he was escaping from Elemesnedene? And why did Findail try to do the same when the party started approaching Mount Thunder?

Well, as to the first, I believe at least a partial answer can be found stemming from the theory Wayfriend proposed, that the Elohim created their plan in haste as a response to the unforeseen dychotomy of Sun-Sage and Ring-Wielder. We know that despite the apparent remoteness of the Elohim, they are creatures of passions: we see that during the test they give to the group who enters Elemesnedene, in Findail's despair, in the story of Kastenessen. It makes sense: Earthpower is not an emotionless power, but is driven by powerful passions, as Mhoram discovered in TPTP. So it is possible that:

1) The Elohim imprisoned Vain in hopes of making his purpose inaccessible and increasing the pressure for Linden to take the ring from Covenant (or, in better words, for Covenant to give his ring to Linden);

(Their original plan didn't call for Vain's destruction; as said before, they simply would have imprisoned him to increase pressure, but they would have released him if the worst-case scenario would have come to pass. This also explains Findail's presence and Appointment: he was there in a dual role - to try and keep pushing Covenant into giving his ring to Linden (witness how Findail always keeps from the party anything they might find of use to escape their various predicaments), and as a "safety valve" in case Vain needs to be used.)

2) Vain's escape was not expected by the Elohim who had imprisoned him;

3) The Elohim, seeing their new plan crumble shortly after they had even developed it, simply panicked and decided that if they couldn't keep Vain imprisoned, it would be better to destroy him, even if this would effectively remove any safety valve they might have planned to have. They might have believed, in their usual arrogance, that Findail would eventually be able to persuade Covenant to give his ring to Linden, and that therefore the risk of destroying Vain was actually tolerable.


As for why Findail wished to destroy Vain toward the end, well, obviously he was driven by despair: he could see his own purpose approaching, he could see that Covenant wasn't in any hurry to give his ring to Linden, and he could see what he thought was Covenant's decision - to surrender to despair and give Foul the ring. Basically, at that point all that Findail could see pointed at the fact that even the worst-case scenario was unlikely to happen, and that more likely Covenant would simply surrender the ring and Foul would destroy the Arch. So Findail attempted to kill off Vain because he hoped to increase pressure on her, so that she would be forced to take the ring from Covenant. And he very nearly succeeded: Linden did wrest control of the ring from Covenant when they were facing Foul.

From Findail's point of view, before he tried to kill Vain, the possible outcomes of their confrontation with Foul in order of likelihood were:

a) Covenant gives ring to Foul and Foul destroys the Arch;
b) Covenant fights Foul, but Ring-Wielder and Sun-Sage are not the same, and a new Staff of Law is needed;
c) Linden takes the ring from Covenant, destroys Foul and remedies to the Sunbane without need for Findail;
d) Findail gets a hold onto Covenant's ring and does what he has to do.

Given that both of the most likely possibilities were also the worst as far as Findail was concerned, he undoubtly panicked, and in any case he figured that if he removed Vain from the equation, he might remove option (b) and possibly shake Covenant and Linden enough for option (a) not to come to pass.
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Post by wayfriend »

I agree about the Giants. "Giants are associated with the Elohim at odd times" I have said before.

But I'm pretty sure that the ur-viles "counted on" the Elohim in all ways. Vain was clearly designed, and very well, both to resist the Elohim as well as to utilize them in the very end. Just as they must have "counted on" Vain getting to the One Tree and gaining whatever essense it was that transformed his arm. And, finally, the "map to the One Tree" was given to Covenant at the exact same time, by the exact same Dead thinktank, as Vain was - the map that they knew would lead Covenant to Elemesnedene, and why.

Therefore, what fits best is that the ur-viles expected Vain to pick up an Elohim before getting to the One Tree, and that they expected Elohim would be tagging along to the One Tree, and then afterwards until their "reconcilliation".

And I disagree that the Elohim at large had ever wanted to destroy Vain. I don't believe that the fire of the Callowail would have done that. The only time an Elohim intended Vain's destruction was Findail, in Mt Thunder ... and even then I have my doubts.

Now, I'd like to believe that that was Findail acting alone, in panick, when he was wrastling with Vain. But if we believed that, we would be forgetting that the Elohim act as one, and that they each carry the same 'truths' within themselves. If Findail was acting, all of the Elohim would be acting the same way, no?

Now consider what Findail has done. Trapping Vain in a tree. Tossing him down into Treachers Gorge. He would know that these things would not destroy Vain!!!

Could it be that, even in the battle over the lava pit, Findail's goal was more to make Vain inaccessible more than dead?

Findail knew they were getting to Foul. So he would know that keeping Vain away from the Quest for as little as a few hours would be all that was needed. Keeping Vain away for a few hours is a whole different game than keeping him away forever. All you have to do is get him somewhere where he cannot get back in time, regardless of his puissance.

So Findail's actions in Mt Thunder may not represent a panic about his demise, but rather a new tack eliminating Vain as an option.
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Post by burgs »

Great answers. I'd like to think that if I had thought a bit more about it, I might have been able to deduce some of that, but ... well, I forgot most of the text mentioned, so probably not.

However...saying that the ur-viles knew how to create something that could both resist and utilize the Elohim - that strikes me as a bit beyond their ability. We are talking about the Elohim here.

They must have had help. Or am I underestimating the ur-viles?

Also - are we assuming that Findail's appointment came after TC came to the Elohim? If not - what might his purpose have been?

It seems that the ur-viles had some pretty big hopes, so many of which relying on slim possibilities.
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Post by burgs »

I just read something in the GI. For me, this fairly well answers (obliquely) most of my questions. Quote from SRD:

Spoiler
Like all of us, the ur-viles have to play the cards they're dealt. They aren't omniscient--and Lord Foul didn't leave many of them alive. Their lore enables them to know some (admittedly unexpected) details--for example, in some sense they appear to have foreseen the coming of Esmer, or of someone like him--but they can't know EVerything.
Obviously I haven't given the ur-viles enough credit.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

1) No one in the Land knows how to make a Staff of Law or where the One Tree is;
2) The only way for TC to leave the Land is with Giantish help;
3) The Giants dealt with the Elohim in the past, and knew of their capabilities and knowledge;

therefore

5) The Giants would lead TC to the Elohim to find out where the One Tree was, or how the Staff of Law could be forged.
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Post by Relayer »

burgs wrote:It seems that the ur-viles had some pretty big hopes, so many of which relying on slim possibilities.
So many great ideas in this thread... :-)

They did have big hopes based on slim possibilities, but this is a common thread all through the Chrons. The Waynhim "menagerie" comes to mind. As does anything involving the free will of Thomas Covenant :-)

This goes all the way back to the Creator's risk in choosing TC. It makes sense that just about every major event involves slim hopes and huge risks. In the face of Despite, what else can one do except go after the one slim chance of success?
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Post by burgs »

Yes...and in the last "slim hope victory", TC had to die to "win".

That was quite shocking (to me at least) when I read it back in 1983. Heroes - at least in the end - usually don't die. They may be irrevocably broken (Frodo, for example), but die?

Knowing that he was going to write a third trilogy, SRD himself was perhaps looking at a "slim hope" that a Last Chronicles of TC w/o a living TC would sell.

This has been said before, and probably thought a gazillion more times. What a pity (though understood) that SRD wasn't ready to write this final chapter in the 80s. He wouldn't have needed to sell one more book in his life.

Then again, we wouldn't all be having wonderful discussions like this right now.
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Post by Relayer »

And TC says he learned it from Brinn when he "lost" to defeat the Guardian. Agreed that the hero usually doesn't die, but that wasn't that shocking to me, probably because SRD had set it up that we knew it was coming... it was just "how's he gonna pull this off and still save the Land?"

If he doesn't have a problem thinking he can sell it now, after most of his readers have forgotten/moved on, I doubt he did back then. He just wasn't ready, which I understand too. I get the feeling he'd write it even if it wasn't going to be published... the story is that much a part of him.
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Post by Borillar »

Almost a year later, I return to the controversy I started and that I must continue to flame. :)

So Wayfriend wrote:
disagree that the Elohim at large had ever wanted to destroy Vain. I don't believe that the fire of the Callowail would have done that. The only time an Elohim intended Vain's destruction was Findail, in Mt Thunder ... and even then I have my doubts.
Upon rereading the passage where Vain escapes from Elemendesne (sp?), it seems clear to me that his body was dissolving completely as a result of whatever the Elohim had done to him, and that he was getting progressively weaker. The text certainly seems to suggest that he would have perished if not for the aid of the Haruchai. The only other alternative is that the fire was an unintended consequence of his bursting the bonds that held him, which I suppose is possible (and in that scenario, it would make sense that the bells that Linden hears would be expressing disappointment over his escape, not over his continued existence).

I'm also not sure where the textual support exists for the notion that the Elohim believe Linden can heal the Earth with the ring alone. They never mention the Staff of Law, but they had good reason for staying away from that topic (given their knowledge of their role in its creation). Attacking the Despiser (which I think they intend to do with the ring, should they get it) and healing the Earth are two separate matters. But I could be wrong about this.

Somehow, I have the feeling that we're attempting to justify a contradiction that SRD accidentally created. It makes sense for the Elohim to want to put pressure on Linden by making it more difficult for the Staff to be created, but there's a difference between making it difficult and making it impossible.
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Post by wayfriend »

On the other hand, the damage done by the Callowail was easily repaired. It may have been considered a non-lethal attack.

Or maybe they were trying to drive him away rather than recapture him. Perhaps spitefully.

As for the Elohim's plan - they said themselves that it balances risks - their risks, as well as the Quests. What risks to themselves are they reducing if not the risk of the creation of the new Staff? In other words, what benefit to the Elohim was there in getting Covenant to give up his ring to Linden EXCEPT the avoidance of the new Staff?
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Post by amanibhavam »

burgs wrote:Yes...and in the last "slim hope victory", TC had to die to "win".

That was quite shocking (to me at least) when I read it back in 1983. Heroes - at least in the end - usually don't die. They may be irrevocably broken (Frodo, for example), but die?

Knowing that he was going to write a third trilogy, SRD himself was perhaps looking at a "slim hope" that a Last Chronicles of TC w/o a living TC would sell.

This has been said before, and probably thought a gazillion more times. What a pity (though understood) that SRD wasn't ready to write this final chapter in the 80s. He wouldn't have needed to sell one more book in his life.

Then again, we wouldn't all be having wonderful discussions like this right now.
Quite true, but then again, this death was way more than a simple death. More like an apotheosis, an ultimate absolution for all the sins, or should we say the final peace TC had found within himself.
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Post by amanibhavam »

Relayer wrote:
burgs wrote:It seems that the ur-viles had some pretty big hopes, so many of which relying on slim possibilities.
So many great ideas in this thread... :-)

They did have big hopes based on slim possibilities, but this is a common thread all through the Chrons. The Waynhim "menagerie" comes to mind. As does anything involving the free will of Thomas Covenant :-)

This goes all the way back to the Creator's risk in choosing TC. It makes sense that just about every major event involves slim hopes and huge risks. In the face of Despite, what else can one do except go after the one slim chance of success?
As a matter of fact this seems to be a recurring motive with SRD. The whole Gap sequence is a huge tapestry of plans and actions based on slim hopes...
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Post by Zarathustra »

Couldn't all this mystery be solved by acknowledging a little detail SRD carefully, intentionally worked into the text himself? Namely: the fact that the elohim aren't entirely "pure?" Why assume they are all working for the same purpose when Donaldson clearly implies a division within them? A darkness upon them? The elohim obviously have disagreements and dissension . . . just look at Kastenessen . . .

We're not getting the full story from Donaldson, yet.

I do agree with Wayfriend that the "division" between Ringwielder and Sunsage is of great importance. In fact, this division is one of the most important aspects of the entire 2nd Chronicles--even from a reader's standpoint. The introduction of Linden into this series is still affecting and dividing readers to this day (THOOLAH, need I say more? ;) ). Sure, we probably all thought it was fine for TC to have a love interest when we first started reading the 2nd Chrons--but one who supplants him as the hero of this series??? No freakin' way, man. SRD had to know we wouldn't expect or root for this ending. This is Covenant's tale, and we want him to succeed.

So Donaldson made a big decision when he wrote the 2nd Chronicles. He included Linden. He divided up the roles of saving the Land into two people. And this narrative decision was one that surprised not only us readers, but the Elohim, too. They mirror our own surprise--from the opposite side. While we want Covenant to save the Land, they want Linden to do so. So naturally, this creates a general narrative tension which lasts the entire 2nd Chronicles, and even bleeds into the 3rd. Don't underestimate the importance of narrative decisions. He's not simply following the consequences of a plot; he does actually have us readers in mind. He wants to give us a good show, and this includes toying with our expectations. That's just what writers do.

So maybe, as someone said up-thread, this is merely a contradiction we've picked out. That's plausible, especially given the "reader/narrative-tension" thoughts I outlined above. Maybe in this one instance his, plan to toy with our expectations outweighed his plot mechanics.

But I don't think that's the case.

Sure, SRD has "explained away" the error of the elohim in not foreseeing the Linden/Covenant divide: arrogance (see Wayfriend's thread where he asked this question in the GI). But as we've said, that's not very satisfying. I have a feeling that SRD has a lot more to say on this issue, but to do so would be a major spoiler. In fact, I think to even let on that addressing this in more detail would be a spoiler, is itself a spoiler (which is why his answer to Wayfriend was so unsatisfying). I could be wrong, but I agree with Wayfriend that there should be some major consequences to the plot due to this unexpected Linden/Covenant divide.

I think the Law of Identity has something to do with this. I think it has been broken. I think it's no coincidence that [Runes spoiler]
Spoiler
Linden went through multiple "identity shifts" during her last transition to the Land, becoming Covenant, Joan, etc.
When was the Law of Identity broken? The first mention is in TIW, when TC briefly gives Hile Troy his ring, but the forestal doesn't allow it; that it would break this fundamental Law. Maybe TC giving up his ring at that point was enough to break this Law. Clearly, TC giving up his ring is a central issue to all 3 Chronicles (which symbolizes giving up his will, his passions). And it's no coincidence that Linden's central problem in the 2nd Chrons was the temptation of committing possession (taking over another's identity).

I'll stop there before I go off into "crazy speculation territory." I don't want to say that Covenant is the only real person in the Land, and that Linden (as well as Troy) are merely distinct aspects of his pysche. Nope, you didn't hear that from me. :) While I do tend to think that the Land isn't literally real, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Linden isn't really a separate person. And yet, time after time, Donaldson forces us back to this issue. Possession. Law of Identity. Linden's "hallucination" of
Spoiler
being different people when she enters the Land,
and the elohim's surprise that these are two distinct people.

It's got to mean something, folks.
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Post by Relayer »

Good post, Malik!

I'll just add that
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the identity issue also comes up when Linden is passing through the caesures, especially the first time.
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Post by Zarathustra »

That's right, I forgot about that one.
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Post by KAY1 »

I'm not sure if this has already been said but couldnt it be that the Elohim also dont want Findail to meet his 'wurd' because it means that yet more of them could be appointed to other tasks? If Linden can heal the Land without Findail being joined with Vain doesn't it mean there is hope for all the Elohim to be spared their own individual dooms? Wasn't one of the most terrible things to become one of the Appointed?

If the Elohim do not need to 'watch over' the Earth and step in at need then they would be free to pursue their own individual (selfish) desires such as with Chant.
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Post by emotional leper »

KAY1 wrote:I'm not sure if this has already been said but couldnt it be that the Elohim also dont want Findail to meet his 'wurd' because it means that yet more of them could be appointed to other tasks? If Linden can heal the Land without Findail being joined with Vain doesn't it mean there is hope for all the Elohim to be spared their own individual dooms? Wasn't one of the most terrible things to become one of the Appointed?

If the Elohim do not need to 'watch over' the Earth and step in at need then they would be free to pursue their own individual (selfish) desires such as with Chant.
I thought that the Elohim's selfishness was more due to Foul's corruption of the Earthpower, since they were Earthpower Incarnate?
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Post by KAY1 »

I dont know if that is true although in the case of elohim such as Chant did the other elohim not say there was a 'shadow' upon him or something like that? I am also sure Linden wondered if the Despiser was in fact Chant's 'shadow'.
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Post by emotional leper »

KAY1 wrote:I dont know if that is true although in the case of elohim such as Chant did the other elohim not say there was a 'shadow' upon him or something like that? I am also sure Linden wondered if the Despiser was in fact Chant's 'shadow'.
That was what I drew from it. When TC 'defeated' Foul with the Magical Power of Laughter, the only thing he could latch onto was the Earthpower, and in doing so he corrupted it. I thought that the Second Chronicles was pretty clear on that.
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Post by KAY1 »

Well I can be pretty dense about some things so ;)

I didn't think that his hiding on the fringes of Earthpower had actually corrupted it though. I just thought it sustained him as it had done the first time when he was diminished by the Ritual of Desecration.

There is something that rings a vagueish sort of bell about the onset of the Sunbane (also in a thread on here on the same subject) but I thought it was more about the destruction of the staff that had enabled the earthpower to be so corrupted.
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