Technology and the Land

[amanibhavam]

I am quite sure there is writing in the Land, I guess the Wards contained written Lore (well, the First and Second, thugh not the Seventh).

[IrrationalSanity]

Didn't SRD once say that he wrote about what was needed in the context of the story - nothing more, nothing less. I think we can safely assume that since there were written instructions in Wards, runes, etc... that writing was well known. Certain traditions were oral, but that doesn't mean there wasn't basic training in reading and writing. There was no description of how one learned to be a Hirebrand or Gravelingas either. Describing said training just wasn't required by the story.

[Mortice Root]

I may be remembering wrong, but weren't the catapults built by Satansfist's army at Revelstone? They wouldn't necessarily need wheels then.

But to me, the word "carts" implies wheels. Otherwise they'd be..... sleds? sleighs?

[Kerb]

I believe advances in technology and inventions are a response to challenges to society. If say the wheel is not a solution, then it wont be invented. For instance the Mayans apparently didnt have wheeled carts, as the land was so mountainous (correct me if I am wrong).

Regarding writing, there are several instances of religious teachings transmitted orally, and not put down in writing. The ancient Celtic Druids memorized all their sacred lores in forms of poems, taking many years to learn hundreds of poems Buddhist monks in India, at the time of Buddha, the teachings were passed orally and committed to memory, the reason being most monks were illiterate.

I cant speak for fiction, but it may be in the Chronicles the anicent lores of Kevin was taught orally and a precis written down in scrolls and hidden, and requiring people versed in the lores to expound on the precis. Thats only my take.

And as said, perhaps wheeled carts were not mentioned as it would be extraneous to the story, or perhaps the author did not pay enough attention to technological advances. If you have people wearing clothes, there must be spinning and weaving, likewise with metal tools there would be mines and smelting. I respect Stephen Donaldson as an author much, and when I say this I do not mean any disrespect, as he is a good author in his own right when it comes to epic storytelling.

[wayfriend]

John P: 2) Why does Seadreamer, while still alive, not write down what he wants to say? I remember in Lord Foul's Bane that Llaura couldn't write down what she was forbidden to say because her hands were shaking too uncontrollably, but it doesn't seem as if Seadreamer is similarly afflicted.

• 2) Is there anything in the "Covenant" books to suggest that the Giants possess a written language? Surely one of the long-term side-effects of writing things down is that people then talk less; tell stories aloud less. But I see no evidence that the Giants talk less than they once did. So why would they *need* a written language?
  
  (08/18/2004)

David: I have searched your GI database concerning a chapter in The Power that Preserves, Lord Mhoram's Victory. As I read and wont quote the chapter, but as I understand it, Mhoram understood the need of the lore/Earthpower when he was wielding the Krill of Loric fighting the Raver, it involved passion and emotion, right?. Now, was this the secret to unlocking the lore that Kevin left? Did this coincide with unlocking the lore of the Wards and Could Covenant have understood the Ward's where the Old Lords could not? Where any of the old lord's transposed into the Land like Covenant, Linden and Hile Troy?

• Was Mhoram's recognition that an *appropriate* commitment of emotion/passion was vital to his ability to wield power important? (Give me enough time, and I'll think of an even more awkward way to phrase that question. <sigh>) Yes, absolutely. The Oath of Peace had the unintended negative effect of making people think that they needed to swallow their emotions. But emotion is crucial to *any* form of real power. (*Appropriate* is the tricky part.) But was Mhoram's recognition the key to unlocking Kevin's Lore? In part, sure. (See above.) However, as any student of the martial arts can tell you, emotion alone isn't enough. (In fact, emotion alone is usually destructive--which is one of at least two reasons why Covenant could not have understood the Wards. Another, of course, is that he could not have *read* them. They were in a language he didn't know.) Even emotion and knowledge together aren't enough. There's also the small matter of rigorous training; endless repetition to get it right. Plus *appropriate* *commitment*, two separate and complex issues, neither of which can be equated with emotion, knowledge, or training.
  
  (09/20/2007)

So, on the one hand, the Lords have writing. On the other hand, the Giants do not. SRD seems to be stuck in the middle in terms of deciding on a technology level.

[Orlion]

Look at it from this perspective as well: It has never quite been directly stated whether or not the Land is real or just a dream (though one could make very good arguments to its actuality, but I digress). If the Land was the dream of TC, it would have to come from his memory stores as all dreams do. Though TC would expect unconciously that people wear woven clothes and eat some form of prepared foods he would be completly ignorant as to how such things are made and what techniques are used. As a result, following the rule of dreams, such technology would not be encountered directly in the Land.

Just an idea, but now to respond to other points. I believe Hile Troy would, tactily, wish for the army to carry supplies as supposed to using carts to assure that Fleshharrower could not cripple his armies by destroying the carts that contained the food. Kinda a stretch, but hey, what are you going to do...

As far as knowledge being passed down, this is illustrated when TC first appears in the Land and, I believe, Atairian tells him that the stonedowners lost the lore of woodmagic (sorry, can't remember the word right now) while they were wondering in the south after the desecration. However, there were rocks all around where they were at, apparently, because they remembered the rock rhedmeral. I believe also that a lot of the songs and poems were written in the First Ward, but I'm not quite sure...

[Ur Dead]

I bet they make a mean pair of shoes..
With all the walking alot of them do.
Either that they have some very callous feet.

[The Dreaming]

I always thought it was never mentioned where the people of the land got clothes, shoes, etc. because it was boring I mean, we're busy talking about the fate of the land, not where people got their robes (I'm guessing homespun).

It IS mentioned that the people of bhrathair are skilled in ironworking, so they can always import it when they NEED iron.

However I kind of think that stone and wood in the land is unaturally strong, especially when amplified by lore, so iron and steel are rarely needed. (With the exception of weapons/armor)

But then, if Donaldson spent the time investigating all of these subtleties... what do we have? We have 13 Covenant novels with the story not even half done yet. *cough* WoT...

[IrrationalSanity]

While the Giants may not have needed a written language among themselves, it seems that their Elohim bestowed gift of Tounges probably would have allowed them to use one should it be needed.

Case in point - didn't the Giants deliver and help translate the First Ward after the Ritual? (I'm certain there was a reference in one of the books to them translating Ward, I just don't remember exactly where...)

[Kaos Arcanna]

I don't see a reason why the Gravelingas couldn't just coax iron out of the Earth itself for their purposes.

Seems to me that SRD made a point of mentioning the Lords' staffs had "iron shod" ends. Wonder if there's a point to that? Why iron? Why would they need to be shod at all?

[amanibhavam]

I seem to remember SRD talk about this in the GI, that the iron endings enhance the Staff's capabilities as a tool for shaping Earthpower.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

I'm not in front of my books at the moment, but it seems like a lot of arcane-engineering was going on when the people of the Land made ship rudders for the Unhomed (not yet knowing they would go unused).
I guess I just made the assumption that carts and wheels were being used at some point, even though no mention of them leaps to mind.
It has been said before in better ways, but just because it wasn't explicitly written in the novels doesn't mean that it didn't go on - just that it wasn't necessary to advance the plot that SRD was crafting, and he for whatever reason chose against using such details to emotionally bond us to the Land's people.
If he had to explain why TC spoke the language of the people of the Land, but couldn't read the Wards, why and how all technology worked, how government worked at the local and regional levels, etc. [or if he had to defend the fact that they chose to go naked since they didnt' have the technology for clothing..., or what if they didn't need to eat because they were sustained on Earthpower alone]... well these differences might have made us empathize less with the Land because its people seemed a little too different (alien?) for us to identify as closely with them. If you really loved the FC, I wager it's because you *cared* about the Land, its people, and their shared plight.

The GI adds depth and insight to our understanding of the Land and its inhabitants, by explaining things that were already mentioned in the available works. But it also allows the author to weave other elements into the existing body of work without having to first defend it to his editors.

dw

[sherlock_525]

Um...Cavewights anybody? It was said (damn can't remember were) that they openly traded with the people of the Land in the far past. They probably acount for the metalworking (if they trade they probably worked with the people) and yeah Kevin went a long way towards resetting tech. but hey I'm just a dumb redneck so what do I know