Heaven Not For Christians Only

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Heaven Not For Christians Only

Post by Avatar »

I love this. He's probably going to take a lot of flak for it too. :D
Heaven 'not for Christians only'

Cape Town - Heaven is not only for Christians, Archbishop Desmond Tutu has warned.

Tutu was the guest speaker at the Alliance of Civilizations awards ceremony, presented by the Spanish embassy in conjunction with the University of the Western Cape and the University of Cape Town on Monday.

"Most of us think God is a Christian, but if you think that God is going to tell the Dalai Lama 'you're a good person, but sorry you're not a Christian' then (I say) rubbish.

"We've conveniently forgotten that Christians burnt witches at the stake. It wasn't pagans responsible for the Nazi genocide - it was Christians," Tutu said.

He said it had also been claimed that apartheid was supported by the scriptures and the symbol of the Ku Klux Klan was a cross.

Tutu sounded a warning against a simplistic classification of good and bad.
--A
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Post by emotional leper »

This is one of the reasons I like Catholicism.

I can hang out with great individuals like those Pederasts Socrates and Aristotle yet!
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Post by rusmeister »

There is a very good point here. He is talking about a God that while He may be bound by reason and morality, is not bound by our concepts of following particular rules (which would be a form of Gnosticism) - which would be a "Ha ha! You made the wrong choice and now yer gonna burn in hell!" sort of God - not the kind we would want to worship (our sense of morality rebels against it). That being so, it is eminently logical that it is not merely some kind of formal membership in a club that would save us. To again refer to Lewis's "The Last Battle", we there encounter the concept of a pagan the children find in "heaven" who truly sought to humbly please his god, even at the cost of his own life.

That doesn't negate the idea of a true and original Christian Church, but it does say that being a member of that 'club' isn't enough, in and of itself. It is the true attitude and intent of the person seeking God that matter most (that said, being in the abovementioned Church would still put you closest to the epicenter of Truth).

What Tutu is emphatically not saying is that Christianity is unnecessary. Again, every proof of fallability of Christians proves the faith's thesis that men are fundamentally messed up.
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Post by Avatar »

Emotional Leper wrote:This is one of the reasons I like Catholicism.
He's Anglican. (CoE) :D
Rusmeister wrote:...it does say that being a member of that 'club' isn't enough, in and of itself.
It goes further than that. It says that being a member of the 'club' isn't a requirement. Tutu is preaching the eminently more acceptable idea that your actions are more important to god than belief in him is. Which is the kind of god I could get behind, compared to the usual christian position that your faith is not only more important than your actions, but that lack thereof could invalidate those actions be they ever so "good".

--A
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Post by Edge »

In Matthew 25 (the parable of the sheep and the goats), He makes it very clear that Heaven is for those who have learned and expressed love, not for those who put a lable on themselves that says 'Christian'.
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Post by Avatar »

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that there are some contradictory ones as well. Be that as it may, I'm very much in favour of the more tolerant interpretation. :D

--A
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Post by Fist and Faith »

OOO RAH!!! :D
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Post by rusmeister »

Avatar wrote:
Emotional Leper wrote:This is one of the reasons I like Catholicism.
He's Anglican. (CoE) :D
Rusmeister wrote:...it does say that being a member of that 'club' isn't enough, in and of itself.
It goes further than that. It says that being a member of the 'club' isn't a requirement. Tutu is preaching the eminently more acceptable idea that your actions are more important to god than belief in him is. Which is the kind of god I could get behind, compared to the usual christian position that your faith is not only more important than your actions, but that lack thereof could invalidate those actions be they ever so "good".

--A
No argument there. But an imperfect analogy I would use in defense of the idea of the Church is if you are stuck on the ocean, you could hope to float to shore on your own plank of wood, or you could get on a ship with navigational aids and all kinds of useful stuff. The Church=the ship. What's left is to figure out which one contains the greatest proportion of Truth and will get you to your destination, and not 500 miles off from your destination.
The "usual Christian position" you describe is a Protestant "Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura" position that takes certain portions of scripture (out of the context of the Scriptures as a whole) and ignores others. That's not the only one out there.
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Post by sgt.null »

the Nazis were not Christians. Tutu knows better than this.
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Post by Linna Heartbooger »

See... I don't think you realistically want me in these discussions... ;) You see, I'm a fierce little fundie. Okay, maybe I'll be good for mocking.

[Edit: One question removed cause it didn't seem quite fair.]

First, who EVER thought that all those who proclaimed themselves to be Christians, or who met some sort of standard of baptism/membership/attendance in a church were guaranteed a ticket to heaven?

Anyone who thinks they can fool God with outward acts of "piety" has got another thing comin'... of COURSE He knows what's in their hearts... whether they truly love Jesus or not... whether they truly repented in their hearts, desiring to be changed. The whole Bible, from beginning to end, is just ringing with the idea that God knows the heart and that there's no point trying to cover and hide it (though the Lord also knows that I do that, for a time, frequently).

Do any of you really believe that you or anyone you know of, by their good ACTIONS alone, are good enough to BELONG IN heaven on the basis of their own merit? I would be hopeless if God judged us based on our actions... (and needless to say, the motives BEHIND the actions) because I'd be a goner for sure without any hope of ever attaining heaven.

And by the way, there were FIVE "solas":
1 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
4 Solus Christus ("In Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("Glory to God alone")
(I didn't even know how many there were myself till I looked them up in Wikipedia to quote them to someone else awhile back...)
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Post by The Laughing Man »

sgt.null wrote:the Nazis were not Christians. Tutu knows better than this.
well, it's important to note that they claimed to be.
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Post by Menolly »

Lina Heartlistener wrote:See... I don't think you realistically want me in these discussions... ;) You see, I'm a fierce little fundie. Okay, maybe I'll be good for mocking.
Lina, welcome to The Close.

We want anyone and everyone who has an interest to take part in these discussions. Variety is the spice of life, right? The challenge is to remain respectful of each other's opinions, even when we disagree.

As for the rest of your post, this is why I am glad I don't fear a fire and brimstone afterlife. Being Jewish, Olam Ha-Ba (the World to Come) just is not a concern in everyday life. Bringing mitzvot into the here and now is the concern. So, I don't generally even think about it, and when I do it is one thing I don't worry about.

That said, I will admit I have friends who practice various faiths, and they have all asked for, and received my permission, for them to do whatever it is they can do to make a non-believer's path easier for me. May as well cover my bases, yes? ;)
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Post by Edge »

Lina: no argument from me! My point is that not only will there be those surprised that they don't make it - because hey, they called themselves Christians! - but there will also be many surprised that they do - because they didn't call themselves Christians.
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Post by emotional leper »

sgt.null wrote:the Nazis were not Christians. Tutu knows better than this.
I'm gonna disagree there. I've seen too many nazi posters of Christ as an Aryan, among other things.
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Post by Xar »

Hi Lina, and welcome to the Close! As Menolly said, everyone is welcome to chime in and offer their opinion - in fact, you'll find that some of the best discussions here came about because of the inevitable clash (I remember the good ol' days between Prebe and me...). Anyway, back to the topic of the post.

I agree with you that simply proclaiming oneself Christian (or attending baptism, mass and so on) is hardly enough to guarantee a ticket to Heaven. But I also tend to disagree with you when you say that you think good works alone are not enough.

First of all, even within the Christian faith, there are lots of different ideas about how people are allowed to enter Heaven - is it by divine grace alone? is it also by virtue of a good life? is it just because of "sheer luck" (God chose you to go to Heaven long before you were born, while the other guy over there can be the most pious and generous person in the world, but he won't get in)? Each Christian denomination, or almost so, has its own ideas, and they can even contradict each other. So who would be right? Obviously, depending on the concept, "entry standards" would be more or less "relaxed", too. However, apparently most of them tend to give more emphasis to faith and divine grace than to good works (not that good works are considered useless, just that some dispense with good works altogether as a criterion).

But all in all, one could also ask - what of the people who were born before Christ and therefore could not, for obvious reasons, call themselves Christians or follow his doctrine? There were undoubtly good people among them - even just the people in the Bible, and hopefully many others - and is their destiny to end up in Purgatory or, like Dante wrote in the Divine Comedy, in Limbo? No matter how good they were? What of people born nowadays in countries where Christianity doesn't have a foothold, or who for one reason or another never gained access to Christianity? Or, for that matter, what of good people who simply follow another religion, such as the Hebrew faith or Islam or the Hindu faith or what have you? There are certainly good people among the followers of every faith, as in among atheists and agnostics; if good works alone were not enough to grant entry to Heaven, would all these thousands of people, some of whom likely made personal sacrifices to perform good deeds, be still denied Heaven upon death?
If mortal parents can forgive anything to their children, including their choice of careers among other things, how much more forgiving could a perfect Father be?
I do not mean to offend, but to me, saying that good deeds are not enough and that faith in Christianity is necessary to enter Heaven seems to demean God rather than glorifying him - it seems to say that He is a much stricter Father than a mortal parent, since He would not allow His children eternal happiness unless they chose the "career" He wants them to choose.

After all, did not God create mortals as we are? Did He not give us flaws so we might strive for improvement? Did He not give us free will? Surely then, having created us as flawed beings, He does not expect us to be inhumanly perfect - but He does expect us to strive to overcome our flaws and do what good we can in the time we have. And this, I think, is more important in the end than whether you belong or not to Christianity or any other faith (or no faith at all, for that matter).

... of course, as others here know, my own idea of what happens after death deviates quite a bit from mainstream Christianity, so to me the whole diatribe as to who is allowed into Heaven is a bit of a moot point ;)
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Post by sgt.null »

Emotional Leper wrote:
sgt.null wrote:the Nazis were not Christians. Tutu knows better than this.
I'm gonna disagree there. I've seen too many nazi posters of Christ as an Aryan, among other things.
the nazi's claim does not make it so.
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Post by emotional leper »

sgt.null wrote:
Emotional Leper wrote:
sgt.null wrote:the Nazis were not Christians. Tutu knows better than this.
I'm gonna disagree there. I've seen too many nazi posters of Christ as an Aryan, among other things.
the nazi's claim does not make it so.
We're quibbling about definitions now?

I claim to be human. Does that not make me human? I also claim to be a Discordian -- are you going to tell me that I'm not a discordian simply because I claim to be one?

Are you going to tell me that Arianist aren't Christians? Who is next? Lutherans? Catholics? Gnostics?
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Post by sgt.null »

i can claim to fly on my own power. does that mean i can? words mean something. and if you don't follow through on the definition of your claim, then you are not what you claim. just like george w is not a conservative.
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Post by emotional leper »

sgt.null wrote:i can claim to fly on my own power. does that mean i can? words mean something. and if you don't follow through on the definition of your claim, then you are not what you claim. just like george w is not a conservative.
:hithead:
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Post by Xar »

Emotional Leper wrote:
sgt.null wrote:i can claim to fly on my own power. does that mean i can? words mean something. and if you don't follow through on the definition of your claim, then you are not what you claim. just like george w is not a conservative.
:hithead:
I'm afraid Null is right... the examples you mentioned start from the wrong assumption. Your examples start from a truth (you are, in fact, human) to build up a statement ("I am human") which is therefore always true. Basically, your example works backwards: you say "B, therefore A".

On the other hand, the statement about Nazi and Christians works the other way around: since I doubt anybody can say that Nazis practiced the spirit of Christianity (offer the other cheek, love everyone as if they were yourself, and so on), you do NOT have an incontrovertible truth upon which to base your assertion. Just because they said they were, it doesn't mean they were; by the same token, Null's assertion that he can fly through his own power doesn't mean he can.
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