Heaven Not For Christians Only

[Avatar]

As I said before, if you all can't agree among yourselves on a unified theory of christianity, it's little wonder that the rest of us are so damned confused.

--A

[The Laughing Man]

well, Jesus said "the only way to the Father is through Me", and then the Church said "the only way to Jesus is through Us." Show me a priest who can walk on water and I'll show you a Church I'm going to!

[Esmer]

Esmer, you are going straight to Hell, you blasphemous bastard!

[Fist and Faith]

The only post in this thread I've read in the last several pages is a good one:

I have some questions to add to this topic: What if there was an "undeniable" God who made His presence known to everyone, and he did punish us for "doing wrong"? How would that affect our approach to "doing good"?

Ha - from my own perspective, it matters a lot on what "doing wrong" was for that god. If most of the important stuff (don't kill, help other people) was consistent between god and me, I'd probably be willing to concede on the "minor" stuff (stop eating pork, ) for the sake of getting into heaven. I mean, I'm not going to make a moral stand about pork for heaven's sake!!! (in both the literal and figurative meaning)

But if god was like "ok you have to join X religion and kill all nonbelievers" I think that I would be all heroic and cool like "I'd rather live in your hell than be chained in your heaven" or something a little more epic. Still, who really knows what I'd decide when confronted with eternal damnation and suffering? I dunno that I can trust myself that much.
((On a side note jews and christians do have to worry about being faced with such a choice - King David was punished for not killing the amaleks, or however it's spelled))

If I didn't agree with joining religion X and killing all nonbelievers, but did it anyway - just going through the motions to get into Heaven - would God care? (I'm assuming we're talking about a God who would know what was in my heart.) And would that stop me from getting into Heaven? What if a couple of those commandments were:
1) Thou shalt join religion X and kill all nonbelievers.
2) Thou shalt love me.

'Cause #2 ain't gonna happen. If I can't force myself to feel a certain way, I might be in big trouble despite anything else I did. (Not that I'd trust that the Heaven of a God who demanded things like #1 would be such an incredible place/state of being that I'd be particularly motivated to do #1 just to get in anyway.)

[Menolly]

If I didn't agree with joining religion X and killing all nonbelievers, but did it anyway - just going through the motions to get into Heaven - would God care? (I'm assuming we're talking about a God who would know what was in my heart.) And would that stop me from getting into Heaven? What if a couple of those commandments were:
1) Thou shalt join religion X and kill all nonbelievers.
2) Thou shalt love me.

'Cause #2 ain't gonna happen. If I can't force myself to feel a certain way, I might be in big trouble despite anything else I did. (Not that I'd trust that the Heaven of a God who demanded things like #1 would be such an incredible place/state of being that I'd be particularly motivated to do #1 just to get in anyway.)

Interesting. We talked about a version of this in class last night.

If you are born of a Jewish mother, you are a Jew, regardless of if you do not believe in HaShem or not, or if you even denounce the religion and HaShem. There is no excommunication from being a member of the tribes.

You can even be considered a practicing, Torah-observant Jew, if you follow the majority of the mitzvot, even if you do not accept and adhere to the Shema, especially the second verse, the V'ahav'ta.

V'ahav'ta eit Adonai Elohekha b'khol l'vav'kha uv'khol naf'sh'kha uv'khol m'odekha.
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Such a Jew would be considered a Humanistic Jew, but they would still be considered a practicing, Torah-observant Jew. And they would still have their place in Olam Ha-Ba.

[Cybrweez]

My bad Av, I didn't know you were talking about the angels' fall, I was thinking about humans. As for angels, the Bible doesn't speak too much about them, either having free will or not, so I'm not sure you can make much of a case either way. I think God is saying don't worry about them.

The Bible does speak about free will, throughout the NT the idea that you must repent and believe in Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection for eternal life is clear. It doesn't mention God will make you repent. That's why the story of the rich man who walked away and Jesus let him is so important. (also a good point when someone claims Christianity should force anyone to do anything - if Jesus didn't, why should we?)

It may be the balance b/w predestination and free will can't be understood by us, b/c we are in time and can't imagine being outside it.

EDIT: Esmer, you're right, some churches claim you gain salvation through US. Obviously, they can't back it up from the Bible, its a power ploy. But we shouldn't be surprised, and Christianity, or any religion, isn't the only culprit.

[Avatar]

No worries.

Well, like I said, I've managed to find 2 verses offering a choice or suggesting that you have one. Other than that, it looks like god is calling the shots.

--A

[Cybrweez]

Av, I don't get it. Do you mean you don't know of any verses that say you must repent and believe? Or are you saying since it doesn't say free will, you can't assume it means free will? Help me.

[SoulQuest1970]

All I have to say is...

John 15:12

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Love each other as I have loved you. This is what I'm commanding you to do.

King James Bible
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

American Standard Version
This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.

Bible in Basic English
This is the law I give you: Have love one for another, even as I have love for you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.

Darby Bible Translation
This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you.

English Revised Version
This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.

Tyndale New Testament
This is my commandment, that ye love together as I have loved you.

Weymouth New Testament
This is my commandment to you, to love one another as I have loved you.

Webster's Bible Translation
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

World English Bible
"This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.

Young's Literal Translation
'This is my command, that ye love one another, according as I did love you;

[Fist and Faith]

Go SQ!!! Let me hear an AMEN!!!!

[rusmeister]

All I have to say is...

John 15:12

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Love each other as I have loved you. This is what I'm commanding you to do.

King James Bible
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

American Standard Version
This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.

Bible in Basic English
This is the law I give you: Have love one for another, even as I have love for you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.

Darby Bible Translation
This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you.

English Revised Version
This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.

Tyndale New Testament
This is my commandment, that ye love together as I have loved you.

Weymouth New Testament
This is my commandment to you, to love one another as I have loved you.

Webster's Bible Translation
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

World English Bible
"This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.

Young's Literal Translation
'This is my command, that ye love one another, according as I did love you;

Quite right.
Put another way,

Matthew 22:37-40
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.
39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

However, that still leaves us with a need to repent (according to Christian teaching) because the essence of sin is selfishness and turning away from self to others and acting is much harder than simply having nice feelings about them, particularly when you don't like them. 'Repentance' means turning away from self and rejecting sin - serving oneself.

The commandment to love and the commands to repent are 100% compatible and two sides of the same coin. But love today is interpreted as what you feel rather than what you do (Greek - agape) and turning away from self is VERY unpopular. Every message hammering into us from society, the media, everywhere tells us incessantly to place self first.

[rusmeister]

I'd hardly call Enoch a fake, nor would any Christian scholar familiar with it's contents. And you can hardly be so dismissive of it's influence on Christianity. It long held a revered place amongst early scriptures, and was part of the very foundation upon Christianity itself was built. I'd hardly call that heretical my friend. We can agree to disagree, because I'm patently against the hardline official church of Christ as it stands today, and express my own well researched opinions and beliefs.

Right. That's why the views you express aren't Christian, so Avatar's confusion is misplaced.
If you do not accept this statement of faith, none of the mainline Christian denominations, together with their extensive theology, scholarship and research which cumulatively would outweigh any individual's, would agree that you are a Christian.

THE SYMBOL OF FAITH (The Nicene Creed)

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
And in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke by the prophets.
In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

This is essentially what you need to confess (accept) to be considered Christian by worldwide Christianity, whatever your church (or lack thereof), in addition to being baptized (however it is done).

[The Laughing Man]

As such the Church and I have mutual respect for each other. So be it. I do not respect their authority, nor do they mine. I, however, accept God's authourity, and the authourity He has given me, which He in turn also respects.

As for my interjection of historically and significantly relevant scripture per Avatar's request, he wanted to know where the Fallen came from, and I provided him the answer. It is from Enoch we have the introduction of this concept into canon, and with names and dates and places to boot. Hardly irrelevant.

It was not my intention, nor is it, to dispute the validity or veracity of the contemporary Christian religion here. I was merely providing information and perspective.

[Avatar]

Av, I don't get it. Do you mean you don't know of any verses that say you must repent and believe? Or are you saying since it doesn't say free will, you can't assume it means free will? Help me.

I'm saying that I've only found two verse that appear to (but do not categorically) imply that god gave free will to man. Whereas I found several more that imply that everything, including the choices of man and angels, happen because god has so ordained it.

*shrug* Is not really serious to me...fairly obviously I'm not an adherent at all, so my interest is more in the incongruities than in the actual intent.

--A

[SoulQuest1970]

Go SQ!!! Let me hear an AMEN!!!!

AMEN! Halleluia! Paraaaiiise the LORD! Be HEALED!

This is the part where I put my hand on one of the kids heads (or the cats) and push thier heads to the bed. hehe... my kids think it's funny... the cats, not so much.

I know my sense of humor is underappreciated.

[Fist and Faith]

Quite right.
Put another way,

Matthew 22:37-40
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.

Exactly!!! What happens if I am, somehow, absolutely convinced of the existence of a One True God, and a requirement for... whatever the reward of that God is is to love that God - and I am unable to? I would not love most versions I've heard of of the Christian God, for example.

[rusmeister]

Quite right.
Put another way,

Matthew 22:37-40
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.

Exactly!!! What happens if I am, somehow, absolutely convinced of the existence of a One True God, and a requirement for... whatever the reward of that God is is to love that God - and I am unable to? I would not love most versions I've heard of of the Christian God, for example.

It does seem an odd 'requirement' when you first hear it. I think most of us would imagine having to love some invisible being we've never seen.

However, if you ever come to understand that the moral imperatives in us (that we frequently choose to ignore, yet which sometimes impel some to risk or even sacrifice their own lives because 'it is the right thing to do' and others simply to do good) are the expression of that God - what He has programmed into us, you will find that you love what is good and what is right, and in so doing, it will become possible to love the One that has proclaimed what is good and right (and not only what is not) and the commandment will not seem strange.
The forgotten aspect of love (which has 4 different expressions and meanings in Greek - modern English has destroyed the meaning of 'charity' and confused 'love' with feelings) is agape - the selfless giving to others regardless of how we feel. In loving God we must learn to deny our self. A person who begins to struggle with sin; to deny his desires and passions free reign begins to realize how great the darkness is within him that demands everything for the self. This is the essence of sin. As Lewis said, the 'better'a person becomes (spiritually/morally) the more he realizes how bad he really is. The converse is that a perfectly bad man thinks he is all right. The habit of self-justification, the love of self is all too easy. That's why self-esteem, literally understood, is anathema for Christians. The converse is to love God and deny self, and in practice, this means to love your neighbor - those nearest to you, and the idea is to love them at least as much as you love yourself. If you really really do this, you will not be far from salvation or the kingdom of heaven.

[Avatar]

There's certainly a difference between eros and agape that is frequntly lost in modern usage, just like the original meanings of karitas.

But of course, since I'm a subjectivist, I can't subscribe to the idea that such impulses/moral 'imperatives.'

--A

[Linna Heartbooger]

Ohhhh man, I wanna get back into this discussion! (but I have to read old posts and stuff before I do...)

But like... Xar posted a succint yet nifty summary thingy in response to my complaint about what I thought he'd said about Augustine (which actually encouraged ME as a Christian to read), and Menolly posted "that part" of the Shema. SO COOL. *hyper happy dance*

[Linna Heartbooger]

Actually... I was thinking about this and couldn't wait! (So in that last post, I lied.) If people are interested in discussing this, this could open up a whole new thread of thought.

I was talking with a friend of mine from church and she made a "pie in the sky" comment. And when I think about it, throughout the ages, some concept of heaven was dangled in front of ordinary folk (by human leaders in the church) as a carrot on a stick or a bribe to control or manipulate them. And I think alot of people resent that, and for good reason - it IS wicked! (out come my "fundie fangs"!)

I can't help but see an incredible contrast between that and the way that Jesus answers a question that is posed to Him:

There came to him some Sadducees, those who deny that there is a resurrection, and they asked him a question, saying, "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died without children. And the second and the third took her, and likewise all seven left no children and died. Afterward the woman also died. In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife."

And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him." Then some of the scribes answered, "Teacher, you have spoken well." For they no longer dared to ask him any question.

Discuss, dissect? This was certainly one passage that rather stunned ME, for one, the first time that I read the Bible.

And I left the context in so it was clear that Jesus was in a situation where He chose to speak carefully... but I really don't think He's the sort of person Who would deny any fundamental aspect of His creed as to how the world works - given the circumstances.