I'm disappointed in myself...*SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY*

[stormrider]

I knew something wasn't right when TC(Roger) and Jeremiah were very condesending toward Linden.

One thing I'm still curious about -- sometimes Covenant and Jeremiah got angry at Linden for seemingly no good reason. If I remember correctly, Jeremiah was furious with Linden when she asked him to show her his chest (so she could see whether he'd been shot). I don't really understand. I understand why it was important that she not touch them, but why was it a big deal for him to pull his shirt up?

[Xar]

I knew something wasn't right when TC(Roger) and Jeremiah were very condesending toward Linden.

One thing I'm still curious about -- sometimes Covenant and Jeremiah got angry at Linden for seemingly no good reason. If I remember correctly, Jeremiah was furious with Linden when she asked him to show her his chest (so she could see whether he'd been shot). I don't really understand. I understand why it was important that she not touch them, but why was it a big deal for him to pull his shirt up?

It could have simply been an act... or maybe the croyel feared Linden's reaction if she had seen Jeremiah's bullet-scars. Then again, from time to time the croyel and Roger seemed to be impatient with everything that wasn't getting to the EarthBlood, so it may stand to reason that the croyel simply was annoyed at the fact that they had to stop, even just a few moments, for something so trivial in its eyes.

[tonyz]

I don't think you can bottle the Earthblood. It's too powerful for that kind of containment.

[CT]

I don't think you can bottle the Earthblood. It's too powerful for that kind of containment.

What about if you command the EB to bottle itself? What happens then?

[wayfriend]

Joining the party late. Excuse me.

What I remember more than anything is being SO RELIEVED that it WASN'T Covenant!!!

I caught on that it wasn't him very early, like Ch 2 or 3. But then I started fretting that it was TOO OBVIOUS. And that maybe the big surprise was that it really WAS Covenant. When neither the Theomach or the Viles were inclined to oppose Covenant - that didn't fit if he was a bad guy out to destroy the Earth for Foul. (And still doesn't really.) So I really started sweat that the Covenant was really Covenant.

Then it wasn't. Phew. I was so happy it wasn't Covenant I wasn't even disappointed that I guessed wrong otherwise.

I was sure it was Foul himself, and a Raver-possessed Jeremiah. That was my theory until I was wrong. I made a list of clues, at about the time I read Chapter 8 (after leaving Berek), as to why it was Foul and/or Ravers. Here it as, as I wrote it:

+ Esmer tells Linden good things go bad, because of Ravers – hint.
+ Covenant talks about how Foul was not recognized when he was a Lord in Revelstone – hint.
+ They don’t want Linden to touch them, because she would feel the Marid-style heat, and lie to cover it up.
+ The don’t like Earthpower, because it’s anathema to them, and they lie to cover it up.
+ Covenant warms up Linden exactly like Foul gave Covenant health in TPTP.
+ Of course, their entire attitude towards Linden.
+ Covenant would not let the Theomach say who Covenant was.
+ Linden is warned to use the Earthblood first – to stop Covenant, probably.
+ The lightning that they used to go back in time is similar to the summoning lightning in Runes.
+ The “other” Covenant who is supportive and nice.
+ Jeremiah’s facial tic points to a conflicted personality.
+ The Mahdoubt fleeing Revelstone – why would she be afraid of the real Covenant? (Is she the Theomach?)

So in short I thought I had a set of both obvious clues and subtle clues that pointed to Foul and/or Ravers.

I did not expect Roger at all. I did expect the croyel, unfortunately. Not because I guessed. Here's something I wrote in my reading journal as I was reading chapter 10.

Damn! Damn! In flipping pages to get to where I left off, I saw something about Jeremiah and croyel. Damn! I think its in the next chapter or two. I hope it doesn’t mean what I think it means … I’m trying not to think about it at all!

That really sucked!!!!

Now what confuses is me are these points:

What was Jeremiah's facial tic all about? If his awareness was all illusion, why need there be a tic?

Why did both the Theomach and the Viles say that Linden did not need Covenant and Jeremiah because she could do everything they could do?

[CT]

What was Jeremiah's facial tic all about? If his awareness was all illusion, why need there be a tic?

My own personal opinion is b/c the "real" Jeremiah wasn't too keen on what the croyel was doing and was trying to somehow communicate to Linden. Or that the croyel's hold on him isn't complete.

Why did both the Theomach and the Viles say that Linden did not need Covenant and Jeremiah because she could do everything they could do?

I think they say that b/c she could, in fact, have done all those things - with SoL and WM, she's got the power to do it. However, she has no idea how, which is part of the inadequacy she feels which leads to the final chapter's events. Getting reminded over and over about how stupid must she be to not be able to do this for herself has to be tough to take.

[tonyz]

>What about if you command the EB to bottle itself? What happens then?

"Here are possibilities of Desecration which even in his despair High Lord Kevin left slumbering and untouched."

[Holsety]

I was expecting TC to be Roger at the end of Runes. It was just a hunch - Roger seemed conspicuously absent, and Jeremiah just turning up out of nowhere made me start thinking it was a ploy of Foul's.

But during FR Roger threw up a smokescreen, and so I got off track for a little bit. I figured that any real villain would be at least a little nice, try to confuse the main character: in other words, Roger used asshole camoflauge and I fell for it.

I think around the time they said they were gonna go for the Earthblood, I decided for sure again that it wasn't TC (too much potential to do evil stuff). But I never expected the twist with the croyel...I think it was supposed to be a surprise. Lindden herself seems to take Roger in stride, but she's shocked when she sees Jeremiah.

It could have simply been an act... or maybe the croyel feared Linden's reaction if she had seen Jeremiah's bullet-scars. Then again, from time to time the croyel and Roger seemed to be impatient with everything that wasn't getting to the EarthBlood, so it may stand to reason that the croyel simply was annoyed at the fact that they had to stop, even just a few moments, for something so trivial in its eyes.

Additionally, I think they just got pissed off over anything from Linden that seemed in any way to probe at 'em or try to figure them out.

[lakespringer]

What was Jeremiah's facial tic all about? If his awareness was all illusion, why need there be a tic?

WF, this reminded me of the Kemper (also controlled/in league with a croyel) who stated that every creation needed an imperfection. Thus Sandgorgon's doom's imperfection was the name of the creature, e.g. Nom. So perhaps the croyel's illusion of Jeremiah had the imperfection of the tic...

[Skurj Scourge]

I suspected all along, but wasn't sure the TC was Roger until he told Linden that the forging of the SoL was a mistake. There was no way that could be true...

[Corwin]

In ROTE covenant said "Find Me", not, "i'll show up on your doorstep and we can chill.". so, after the bone-chilling effect of the cliffhanger in the first book, when you go back and read through it and ponder what TC actually said.... It doesn't make sense from the very beginning. But seriously..... the croyel got me, Roger... eh... i had a faint idea.... but no, and the elohim hand... damn dude... didn't see that coming. Great readings and discussion so far, but im not liking the bit ive read so far about The Harrow...... IDK.... i just think its kind of lame so far, but then, i haven't finished the book yet.

[myrha]

The fact that neither TC or fake Jeremiah seemed to care about Linden was a tipoff to me that something was off. As I read more, I became convinced that this was not TC, but I never guessed about Jeremiah. I thought his mind had somehow been made whole (similar to TC's leprosy being cured) and he was enamoured of the first person he had really gotten to know and could admire. Roger's demanding his ring during Linden's talk with the viles and the Theomach's hesitation towards fake TC/Jeremiah were tipoffs. Plus the fact that Berek touched TC and he did not disappear, nor did he when in the presence of the earthblood and the power of command. As others have said, what a surprise! What a wonderful dramatic moment, when she drinks and demands the truth and as SRD says, watches her loves fly apart like leaves in the wind.

[Truth or treachery]

I didnt think of them both being imposters until we were under Melenkurion Skywier. Then I thought that perhaps an illusion cast over Roger (as had been alluded to) could make him look like Covenant. But I was also confused by how the Theomach treated Linden as a friend and seemed to have an ongoing relationship with Covenant. I didnt believe he could be fooled by any illusion. And, as a previous poster pointed out, he wasnt fooled but was forbidden to reveal covenants identity, why is he dealing with Roger and croyel? Was berek set up by the Theomach simply so he could affect history as was his desire? Without the Theomachs aid perhaps there would never have been a council of lords! And if that is true, why would he become the gaurdian of the one tree if he had already affected history! We wont know for three years!!

What completely took me by surprise was jerimiah and the croyal sucking on his neck! That part was great. I also didnt expect Roger to be allied with Kastenessan (or however you spell it) I just assumed he was under Lord Fouls direct control. To SRD..."Show me the truth!"

[variol son]

I also didnt expect Roger to be allied with Kastenessan (or however you spell it) I just assumed he was under Lord Fouls direct control.

That was also a surprise to me, and it's one of the things that I love about the book - you can never be certain who's working for/with whom.

I knew that it wasn't the real Covenant, but for some reason I never considered that it wasn't the real Jeremiah. And the fact that it was Roger blew me away. I'm crap at guessing those sort of things.

[Relayer]

For the most part I didn't think it was the real TC, but I kept wondering and didn't suspect it was Roger. SRD set us up so perfectly But it was always possible that "TC's" explanations were correct, that being the AOT would change TC. Or it could've been that TC had become haughty like an Elohim, or been influenced by them, or ...

But when you think about it, if Roger could have controlled himself for a few hours and not acted like such a douche to Linden from the moment he entered Revelstone, she probably would have given him the ring.

Yea, I kept wondering that myself... why wouldn't Roger be able to control his contempt for the sake of getting the ring? Even though he couldn't let her touch him, if he had been the loving Covenant that Linden expected, (like the one who spoke to her through Anele), I'm sure he could've gotten her to give him the ring. Under Skyweir, he even says "the croyel thinks I should've tried harder to get the ring."

roger was probably corrupted by foul early on, like joan... we just never saw the evidence of it before.

Well, Joan did take him to the Community of Retribution...

I suspected all along, but wasn't sure the TC was Roger until he told Linden that the forging of the SoL was a mistake. There was no way that could be true...

But others later told her the same thing. Infelice, and maybe the Harrow? So at least in some ways it may be true.

[SkurjMaster]

Dear Watchers,

I was reading through the postings and began to think about Jeremiah's facial tick. As I read I found that someone had already givent that some thought. The suggestion that the hold of the croyel is not complete is intriguing, but here is another question. If Jermiah was taken to the Land at the bonfire in the 2nd Chronicles, has he been with Foul? If so, is the deal with the croyel between Jeremiah and it or between Foul and it? Is this Jeremiah's attempt to escape Foul's clutches?

What do you ladies and gentlemen think?

[callback]

I don't think you can bottle the Earthblood. It's too powerful for that kind of containment.

What about if you command the EB to bottle itself? What happens then?

You get a bottle that you can't open, unless you use the Staff of Law and white gold to power the krll and use it as a bottle operner.

But that would break the Arch of Time, obviously.

[sherlock_525]

I'm with burgs on this one. Maybe it will happen in the past so Wildwood himself can do it. (soory jumped back a coulpe of pages and didn't know )

[amanibhavam]

I suspected it would be Roger at the end because to me it seemed that Roger was almost never mentioned, everybody in the story was wildly speculating about Kastenessen, Joan, the skurj etc. but Roger was curiously omitted from these speculations...

[SleeplessOne]

I was convinced within the first couple of chapters that the 'shemp' TC wasn't all he said he was - all that grinning and smiling !! That was a big clue right there; TC smiled a mere 2-3 times throughout the first two chronicles - I also suspected it was Roger at various points, without having a strong reason as to *why* I thought that .. but yeah, never thought it was TC and at times became impatient to find out who the imposter actually was ..