A question about the ending. . .

[sherlock_525]

Well at least somebody finds me amusing

[wayfriend]

WF could you splain that? I am dense today.

That's because ...

[JARRING CORD]

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[iQuestor]

thanks!

[Edelaith]

Well, Donaldson *did* speak of the series blasting off into space, metaphorically ...

Actually, though, no: It will not be Lepers In Space or the Swiss Family Covenant.
Time/space only exists within the Arch. Outside the Arch, time does not exist.

[Dawngreeter]

Wow this place is busy. Anyway, I am now done with FR and freakin loved it! I am filled with wonder & many questions as I see many are. At the end of the book the last question presented to me was -

He took one step toward her, then another, before his legs failed and he plunged to his knees. Still upright, he
gazed at her with such dismay that her throat closed. She could not breathe.
"Oh, Linden." His first words to her were a hoarse gasp. "What have you done?"
"Done, Timewarden?" Infelice snapped viciously. "Done? She has roused the Worm of the World's End. Such magicks must be answered. Because of her madness and folly, every Elohim will be devoured."
Abruptly the krilts gem began to shine again. Its light throbbed like a heart in ecstasy, as if it echoed Joan's distant excitement-or Lord Foul's.
Hyn's dolorous whickering reminded Linden that the Ranyhyn had tried to warn her.

The bold is my curiosity. It wasn't that everything(-body) would be destroyed but just the Elohim. Are the Elohim that arrogant that they think that much of themselves & no one else? Or does this say something else?

[Warmark]

I took that as a reference to the Worm eating stars in the creation story from the Second Chronicles, Elohim = Stars before they went through the arch?

[wayfriend]

"She has roused the Worm of the World's End. Such magicks must be answered. Because of her madness and folly, every Elohim will be devoured."

Now, looking at just that paragraph, it seems to imply that (a) the Worm can be "answered", to presumably un-rouse it, and (b) that the Elohim would be consumed by this answering process.

"Yet the devoured stars were beings as unlike to us as gods, and no Worm or doom could consume their power without cost. Having fed hugely, the Worm became listless and gravid."

Like, maybe in devouring the Elohim, the Worm would become "listless and gravid" once more. Everyone has often remarked on the number of clues that seem to indicate that the Elohim are, in some way, those stars. And we know that devouring stars sates the Worm. And it does explain the use of that specific word, 'devour'.

Does that work?

[sherlock_525]

Works for me wayfriend

[I'm Murrin]

I think I have a different interpretation of what she said. It is possible that when she says "She had roused the Worm of the World's End. Such magicks must be answered," what is actually meant is that the Worm is roused in answer to the magicks that Linden wielded. She may only be stating the certainty that Linden's power has attracted the Worm's attention.

[Warmark]

I think I have a different interpretation of what she said. It is possible that when she says "She had roused the Worm of the World's End. Such magicks must be answered," what is actually meant is that the Worm is roused in answer to the magicks that Linden wielded. She may only be stating the certainty that Linden's power has attracted the Worm's attention.

That was my impression aswell.

[amanibhavam]

Wayfriend wrote somewhere in this topic:

Ah. Here it is. I think.

In Fatal Revenant was wrote:
"You vaunt yourself without cause, Elohim," retorted the Harrow. "Was not your Appointed Guardian of the One Tree defeated by the Theomach?"

"He was," admitted Infelice. "And in his turn, the Theomach was defeated. Though he strove to affect the Wurd of the Earth, he fell before one mere Haruchai. Thus our present peril is in part attributable to the Insequent."

Interesting choice of words there. What ak-Haru strove to affect was the Worm - to rouse it by giving combat. So the Wurd is the Worm, we knew that.

I am not sure this is sound logic. The Theomach strives to affect the Wurd (Wyrd, fate, lot) of the Earth by protecting the OT and through that the Worm. That does not equate the Worm with The Wyrd, imho, although in a sense, the Worm is equal with the Wurd that is equal with the Weird that is equal with Wyrd as we know it from the Northern mythology of our world.

[BraulioB]

I believe the Worm is within the Arch Of Time. It is subject to time, i.e. it sleeps.

Also in the prior quote, it mentioned that the Worm wakes up every eon then goes back to sleep. This time, before the eon ended that it had eaten so many stars that it got tired. Who is to say that it can't fall all the way asleep as this story and the end of the eon are the same?

Either way, it is subject to time just like everything else in the Creator's creation.

B

[wayfriend]

IMO, the fact that the Worm rests, and will one day roused, is just an aspect of the metaphor. Conveying the idea that the Earth is finite and will inevitably end.

I feel compelled to remind people that the Arch and the Worm myths are contradictory, and intentionally so. There is no resolution that includes both of them. And that they are indeed two different myths for the same thing, the Earth's creation. All of this has been confirmed by SRD in the GI. (4/29/2004, 10/30/2004, 8/28/05)

I only mention this because I think trying to reconcile the different myths by figuring out how they could fit together in a literal way --- such as how the Worm lives inside the Arch --- is going down the wrong path. The Worm is a myth, a metaphor. The Arch is a myth, a metaphor. But they are all metaphors for something that is real. This real thing has affects, such as burying the Isle of the One Tree, but saying that the Worm did it (or that the Arch did it) is explaining events in terms of the myth, like Romans explaining the rising of the sun by saying it's a winged chariot.

[Charles Timewaster]

If the Elohim are the remnants of devoured stars, then they've already passed through the Worm's digestive tract once. So I hope the Worm doesn't eat them; that would be gross!

As to reconciling the creation myths...assuming they're both based in fact, I've only been able to come up with two readings.

One is that the Creator created both the stars and the Worm inside the Arch of Time. But that doesn't seem right to me...it makes the Land an insignificant and transient part of a vast universe, and it seems odd that the Creator would risk destroying the whole universe by letting white gold into the Land. (On the other hand, this matches what Findail says at the One Tree...Lord Foul is in trouble if he wakes the Worm but the Arch of Time stays intact.)

The other possibility is that the Worm and the stars existed out in Eternity with the Creator. So the Creator is maybe just an undevoured star, and the Arch of Time is a spell he cast on the dormant Worm to give structure to the Land. I think this fits the story better, except that it implies that Lord Foul will be freed when the Worm wakes up.

[Seppi2112]

Lol...

Don't take it literally, they're allegories

Assuming they're based in fact...

Just struck me as funny.... carry on.

[Charles Timewaster]

Well, there's a continuum between completely factual and completely mythical.

It's conceivable that the Worm is like Santa Claus...it doesn't exist as a physical being, it's just a metaphor for the desire-to-destroy-the-world that exists in everyone's hearts. But I don't think the text supports that; I think the Worm physically exists and that it's linked to the Island of the One Tree.

But it's possible that some of the details are mythical. It might not look like a real worm. Like Wayfriend said, it could be an allegory or a crocodile or something like that.

[wayfriend]

It's like this. One culture on earth has a sun myth which says that the sun is a glowing chariot that flies across the sky each day, driven by a god. Another culture on earth has a sun myth which says that the sun is a glowing vessel carried on a flying ship piloted by an elf.

If you try to put them together literally, you'd be in trouble. ("Hmm, maybe the chariot rides around on the ship, and the ship flies through the sky".) It doesn't make any sense - the myths were never meant to be put together. Their contradictions can't be resolved, don't have to be resolved, aren't meant to be resolvbed.

However, both myths arise from the same underlying phenomenon. The sun. The Roman can look into the sky, see the glowing orb, and say, look, there's the winged chariot! And the Noldor can look into the sky, see the glowing orb, and say, look, there goes the light of Valinor! Both myths are equally affirmed by real events.

So ... two myths ... don't fit together ... but both affirmed by real events.

That's what's going on with the Arch and the Worm. Two myths arising from the same underlying phenomenon, not fitting together, but equally affirmed by events.

If you compare those sum myths, you'll see that they have a lot in common. A bright light. Travelling across the sky. Repeating each day. This is because they arise from the same underlying phenomenon.

But each has a differences. One involves an Olympian God and battle transportation. The other, the remains of a once more glorious time, forver removed from the ken of those on Earth. The differences arise from the people who invented the myths, how they think, what they believe, their history.

The Arch and a Worm have a lot in common. A long, bent curve. Which the existence of the Earth depends on. Creation. Ultimate Destruction.

And there are differences, that arise from the creators of the myth. The worm myth embraces the idea of finite time, and destruction inherent in the physical fabric of the universe. The Arch embraces the idea of a sheltered inside, a chaotic outside, a barrier between. Each myth was created by different people who had a different attitude toward the Earth. The Arch, by those who battle Foul and serve the Creator. And the Elohim, who are immortal until the world itself ends.

[Aleksandr]

Some good commentary on myths, but we do have face the fact that Findail, practically in the same breath during the crisis at the One Tree, speaks of both the Worm and the Arch. I'm willing to believe that "Arch" and "Worm" are symbols of something deeper (Indeed, the Elohim's creation myth tells of the Wyrd not of the Worm), but since Findail separates them they are probably not the same. Also, Time may not be an literal "Arch", but I think we can conclude that Time is real.

[ninjaboy]

It was Infelice who stated that the Worm had been roused.. Haven't we been taught to distrust the Elohim?
It IS possible, of course - it would definately help the destruction of the world.. If that is what Donaldson is trying to get Linden to do... It seems to me theat such a use of magic -Linden used both the Staff of Law and the Ring to ressurect Covenant - would endanger the Arch of Time more than wake up a worm, asleep under the ogean absolute leagues away..

What I want to know is WHO created the rule that the dead could no longer speak to le living in Andelain?
Can Covenant still preserve the Arch of Time though he's been ressurrected?
How are they going to get the Croyel of Jeremiah's back? Apparently that's never been done before.. Apparently he's going to be crucial in creating a prison for Foul / Worm / Arch of Time..
Anele is going to have to make more of a contribution - he IS the Land's last hope.. (Perhaps he'll be the only survivor of the current company *excluding animals*)...
Why does Linden keep making stupid decisions? Why does she think she's so damn Helpless?
If the Land isn't going to be destroyed they are going to have to do something to get rid of the sandgorgons and Skurj..

[wayfriend]

What I want to know is WHO created the rule that the dead could no longer speak to le living in Andelain?

Good question. I'm betting Time Warden.