Durances and Appointed

[earthbrah]

I seriously doubt that the Creator would come into the Land at all. I may be recalling this wrong (need to check the GI), but I believe SRD has said that such an act would effectively destroy the Earth.


(going off to search...)[/quote]

[earthbrah]

Ok, I found something that may shed light on what I intimated above. Ironically, I posted this same thing somewhere else very recently...

SRD wrote in the GI:

the rules for "reaching out" from inside a closed system in order to connect to another closed system are fundamentally and inevitably different than the rules for "reaching into" a closed system from an unlimited, effectively infinite system in order to change the closed system. The two actions cannot be compared to each other.

The above being the case, I now see how Jeremiah could potentially use his power (with the right materials and motivation, of course) to bring the Creator into the Land. And the more that I think about it, the more possible this is sounding. Damn, this idea opens up ( ) some cool possibilities.

[Skurj Scourge]

Nice Find, Earthbrah! I had not seen that in the GI. It opens the definite possibility that the Creator could be "summoned" to The Land.

[callback]

And we might ask, to what uses might Jeremiah's powers (if they are Jeremiah's and not the croyel's) be used?

My understanding is that Jeremiah has the ability to open a door to anywhere or anywhen, given that he has the right materials and motivation. So here are two really good uses for his powers.

1. Open a door for Foul to get past the Arch without destroying everything.

2. Open a door for the Creator to come through so he can kick Foul's butt.

Hmmm.... It's enough to make you wonder why Foul hasn't gone with use number 1 yet. Roger at least seemed to think that something like that would be possible.

Necessity of freedom. If Foul used the Croyel to make Jeremiah do that, it would be no more effect than Foul doing it. He's a tool, and a tool's only as good as the skill of its user.

I bet what Foul wants is for Linden to free Jeremiah, so he can get Jeremiah of his own free will to do what Foul wants.

I'm not at all convinced that the "necessity of freedom" argument applies here. How hard, for example, would it be to convince Roger that he should get Jeremiah to do this? Roger is already stoked about the possibility of becoming a god. And it's quite clear that Jeremiah can excercise his power despite being ridden by a croyel. I suspect that Foul has so thoroughly dedicated himself to the idea of escaping from the prison of the Arch of Time by destroying the Creator's world that he is unwilling to avail himself of a promising alternative. In other words, escape has become secondary for Foul. Despair and destruction are his primary goals and have been so for a very long time now.

[FAP]

I have the distinct impression that the Arch and the Earth are two seperate things. The Worm could eat all of the Elohim and devour the earth but th Arch would still be standing. There just wouldn't be an Earth, or Land, in it.

So even if the world is destoyed as long as the Arch remains Foul is stuck, maybe dead. Same probably goes for Roger and Cryoel-boy.

Maybe they hope the destruction of the Earth will bring direct intervention from the Creator thus breaking the Arch and freeing Foul and Co.

[wayfriend]

The Arch has no purpose except to house the Earth. If the Earth were gone, the state of the Arch would not matter.

The Arch isn't literally an Arch, right? It is a metaphor for "a *process*; or a set of on-going rules or mechanics which simultaneously enable things like chronology and consecutiveness (without which life as we know it would be impossible, and the Earth of “The Chronicles” would certainly cease to exist) and prevent things like wandering through eternity, or being everywhere at once, or even being in two places at once." (The GI, 03/15/2006). So an Arch without an Earth is like laws of physics with no universe, or like a speed limit with no road. It's nothing.

And we have to maintain Donaldson's assertion that the Creator cannot interfere with the Earth; he certainly cannot enter it. I don't think anything has changed about this fundamental concept.

If Jeremiah can use a door to connect to Covenant's real world, then it will be used to find a way for Linden or Jeremiah to escape back to the real world, despite being dead. That's my opinion.

[Fist and Faith]

"Are you blind at last?" His voice rang like a carillon in agony. "Employ your sight! You must see! For this has the Despiser wrought his ill against you! For this! The Worm defends the One Tree! Have you learned nothing? Here the Despiser cannot fail! If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos. And if the ring-wielder attempts to match his might against the Worm, he will destroy the Arch of Time. It cannot contain such a battle! It is founded upon white gold, and white gold will rive it to rubble!"

Mind you, we've already decided Findail was lying about at least the One Tree not having a Guardian until Berek put one there, so maybe he lied about this too.

[earthbrah]

Or could Findail have been like the Jedi--blind to certain potentialities or possibilities due to the Elohim being so self-absorbed?

It's possible that what he said in the 2nd Chronicles was just his best understanding of things.

[wayfriend]

Indeed. If there's anything that Donaldson is bringing from the Gap Cycle into the Final Chronicles, it is this concept of disparate points of view of the same events leading to conflict.

[Fist and Faith]

Or could Findail have been like the Jedi--blind to certain potentialities or possibilities due to the Elohim being so self-absorbed?

It's possible that what he said in the 2nd Chronicles was just his best understanding of things.

I'm not saying your idea is not possible. I'm just saying I don't see how it can be. Do you have anything specific in mind?

Indeed. If there's anything that Donaldson is bringing from the Gap Cycle into the Final Chronicles, it is this concept of disparate points of view of the same events leading to conflict.

I described the First Chrons that way many years ago. The Haruchai name Foul Corruption, thinking that is the worst thing that can happen. The Ramen call him Fangthane, thinking the worst thing he can do is kill Ranyhyn. Soulcrusher; Grey Slayer; Lord Foul... It's the blind guys feeling different parts of an elephant, thinking it is a tree; or a snake; or a rope...

[Skurj Scourge]

As much as I think it would be cool, I don't think SRD will bring The Creator into the land for a few reasons:

1. Much too "Deus Et Machina" Poof! All of a sudden an all powerful being shows up to fix everything. Cheap gimmick and way below what we expect from him.

2. He has invested so much energy and time in hammering home the fact that if The Creator acts upon the Earth, he will break the Arch. to all of a sudden invalidate this bedrock principle would be inconsistent with the universe he has created and we know how we all value consistency in the dynamics of the story.

[earthbrah]

Fist and Faith wrote:

earthbrah wrote:
Or could Findail have been like the Jedi--blind to certain potentialities or possibilities due to the Elohim being so self-absorbed?

It's possible that what he said in the 2nd Chronicles was just his best understanding of things.

I'm not saying your idea is not possible. I'm just saying I don't see how it can be. Do you have anything specific in mind?

No, I don't have anything specific in mind. It's been too long since I read the 2nd Chronicles, so I'm quite hazy on the details of what Findail said and didn't say. It just seems that the Elohim are so absorbed in their own all-encompassingness that they can't see things that might not be within this realm. The singular Elohim could be probing the elephant just like all the other races in the world, "seeing" only what they see, nothing more.

[Variol Farseer]

As much as I think it would be cool, I don't think SRD will bring The Creator into the land for a few reasons:

Both good reasons, and I think there are more he isn't telling us about. This is the first time that the Creator has not appeared in the 'real' world to speak to either TC or Linden. I suspect we're not going to see him put in any kind of appearance at all.

[earthbrah]

Aw, I disagree. He'll show up somehow, somewhere. Who's to say we won't return to the "real world" before this saga is done?

And remember, he managed to speak to TC at the end of TPTP while TC was still in the Land. (Or was TC already in limbo between worlds when that conversation happened?)

[wayfriend]

I, too, think that the Creator will figure in at some point, although he may never appear directly. But I suspect that he won't be doing what we expect he would be doing, trying to save his world.

[Skurj Scourge]

I, too, think that the Creator will figure in at some point, although he may never appear directly. But I suspect that he won't be doing what we expect he would be doing, trying to save his world.

I agree, Wayfriend. I think the Creator has an agenda that is yet to be revealed. The Land has suffered so much under Foul's sway that it almost seems as if he is prepared to put it out of it's misery.

[Ur Dead]

I, too, think that the Creator will figure in at some point, although he may never appear directly. But I suspect that he won't be doing what we expect he would be doing, trying to save his world.

I agree, Wayfriend. I think the Creator has an agenda that is yet to be revealed. The Land has suffered so much under Foul's sway that it almost seems as if he is prepared to put it out of it's misery.

Along with agreement with some of this. The Creator can not touch the Earth (SRD world) because if he does it will abated the Arch. The Arch was created by the Creator for the sole purpose of housing his world and also additional act as a containtment for his adversary.

So the direct involvement by the Creator will make an end to the land, and that can not happen. But where he fear to tread in the first two chronicles, the creator may have recruited someone from the outside to be his contrivance in the world.

Little has been revealed of the early times of this world. Was Foul imprisoned right after the creation or was it sometime later. What did Foul do before there were Haruchai, the Stonedowners, The southern kings, before the one forest has spread over the Land. What kept Foul in check to insure the events happening at this point would come to pass?

Was there a world's guardian who predate the Elohim? If yes then is it this guardian whom wrestled with Foul to keep him reduced so Foul could not corrupt the Land totally?

Would such a being still be around? Acting only when the adversary ventures into the guardian's balliwick? (Weird or Wurd for some interpertation) Letting events happen because the world's inhabitances allow or choose an action. Or would this being act in a manner that nudges certain events to happen because of an need?

This would be a true Deus Machina addition.

[Atrium]

At first i was sure about the Manacles being for Kastenessen. But also, consider his role. Rather than great antagonist and bad guy, i perceive Kastenessen as a tragic figure. He rebelled against the Elohim for love, not for darker reasons. And i always read Donaldsons telling of Kastenessens story as more of a critique against the other Elohim, whom in imprisoning him displays both arrogance and uncaring.
I expect that Kastenessen is going to get some revindication in the last series, not just being manacled and dragged back to his prison.

[Borillar]

[Fist and Faith]

I can't imagine he'll simply be put back either.

However, iirc (I don't have TOT in front of me) Kas' love harmed the woman. It's not just that they disapproved; she was being damaged.