dukehenry wrote:I doubt this is likely, but perhaps in the past when Elohim have mated with regular humans, the offspring become Insequent? This could explain why there was such a hub-bub when you-know-how mated with a human woman and imbued upon her the power of the Elohim...
I don't believe it myself but thought I would mention it anyway.
We only have evidence of that happening once, with Kastanessen, and that pairing produced something not human (the merewives.)
Agreed, I do not believe it likely, but perhaps since Kas granted her powers as well that the offspring were somehow tainted..?
Or perhaps he won't explain their history at all. Either way, I look forward to reading the remaining 2 books.
I thought from the text that while Kastenessen had a human lover, procreation (in our sense) doesn't actually happen.. The merewives were creations, like the Ur-Viles and Demondim.
That being said it IS possible (though extremely unlikely) that the Elohim created the insequent..
Maybe they ARE just some race of Super-Wizards that like to keep themselves hidden when there's not much to do.
Forgive my death.
It was my flesh that failed you, not my love.
Murrin wrote:I'd say the problem with that theory is that the Unfettered came about as a result of the legend of the Unfettered Ones, which was created by an Insequent. So even though the Theomach apparently based the legend on the lives of the Insequent, there were no actual Unfettered before humans learned of the legend.
No more so than the Theomach telling Berek about the words of power, without that, much that was learned and uncovered about the Land and its lore would not have been discovered, which in turn would have meant that there would potentially be no Revelstone, no ritual and no bloodguard to fight Ak-Haru Kenaustin.
I suggested on the RoTE board that the Mahdoubt might stem from the remains of the clave riders, clearly both the Unfettered and the former members of the clave are groups that did not have their stories finished (as in ended) in previous chronicles. In many ways they are loose ends and both fit a number of the criteria we know about the Insequent from FR.
The Insequent appear to be mortal, they have lore, but they wield it as knowledge rather than intrinsic power, ie they are not magic or beings of power, just very learned in certain fields. The lore they have gathered is likely by inference to be greater than that, which could be achieved in an ordinary life-time.
Whilst there were those amongst the Unfettered who did have extended lives, the Clave also had lore quiet possibly with the potentiality to unlock this knowledge, combined of course with the broken law of death.
I can see no reason why either of these groups could not in time become the Insequent.
"Winston, if you were my husband I'd give you poison" ................ "Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it!"
"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"
"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."
"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"
"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
My theroy, for what its worth, regarding the Insequent, is that they Haven't been in the Land all this time, like the Haruchai said they were. I think they are new creations.
When we first meet the Theomach, the first thing I thought of was how much Theomach looks and sounds like Thomas. But there was also something nagging at me, that 'Mach sounds a lot like Joan's maiden name (Macht for those of you who don't remember)
Soon, we hear that both Jeramiah and Roger know who he is. After they are revealed, it's not surprising that Jerry can do a little bit of time travel, but I don't think Roger can without Jerrys help; but he must know who Theo was Somehow. That leads me to beleive that Roger knows exactly who the Theomach, and the rest of the Insequent are.
later, we see how Theo can step inbetween moments of time. That seems like it should be a pretty difficult thing to do. And after all is said in done in the camp, Linden does a bunch of stuff that didn't happen the first time in the past, she hopped that the Law of Time would be able to fix itself around it, and Theo tells her that he fix things up by making her the First Unfettered.
Well, we all know that Linden was NOT the first unfettered, yet it made things okay with the arch of Time.
Much later, we hear the story about Theo, that he went along with Berek, and became the guradian of the One Tree. And the whole time it talks about how much they detest the Elohim (the only other beings who are not constrained by the Law of Time)
Well...putting two and two together (and more than likely getting twenty two!) I formed my own hypothosis. Chances are, its as WAY off as all the hypothisis about the Mahdoubt in the Runes forum, but here goes:
I thinkk that the Insequent are something akin to Covenants denizens. He is the Time Warden, according to the Elohim. Theo says it himself, that if he wasn't there to stop Roger and Jerry, that the Elohim would have stepped in. Well why wouldn't they step in, unless there was a higher authority present?
Because of the ceasures damaging time Everywhere...and Roger and Jerry trying to possibly do the same, not to mention Kassy and Esmer, Covenent had to do something to counter all these attacs on the Arch.
He is incorpreal (at least until the last page) so he can't really do anything about it, remember in WGW? Findail sent him away with no more than a thought. He needed to make something or somethings that could fight for him.
So now Linden was the first Unfettered, and Theo was Kenaustin. Perhaps he wasn't always Kenaustin; perhaps it as an Elohim, perhaps he was something more akin to Amok. But Theo had to Help Berek, and fix what Roger (and Linden) were doing.
THe same with the Harrow. There was a group of Demondim really wrekking havok with the Arch. Not only keeping a ceasure open, but channeling an ancient power through it. Well that wasn't supposed to happen. That was something the Timewarden had to take care of. Well, he just happened to have in his arsenal, a soldier who had been learning everything he could about the Viles, and their spawn. He managed to take care of things pretty good.
Covenant could feel that Linden was going to be ariving at Revelstone, and that she was going to need her wits about her, especially since their sons were going to show up and try to screw up everything...so he gave her the Mahdoubt, someone to give her some comforting advise.
Perhaps at somepoint, Roger and Jerry (or Esmer, or kassy or someone else) tried to go back and stop the battalion of Haruchai from becoming the Bloodguar (that would have certainly messed up time) Well, Covenant send the Vizard, even farther back, to give them a little bit of shame, and make sure they keep of theri little excursions.
And being part of Covenant, they are going to share his...distaste for the haughty Elhoim.
That's my theroy anyways...feel free to shoot it down at your leisure.
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
Tis an interesting theory.. Yet hardly plausible. Basically through the presence of the Harrow. Even if TC condoned his chosen ends (the Harrow to posess the Staff, the White Gold..) there is no way TC would come close to permitting the means by which the Harrow first tried claiming them.
And that's not the only thing wrong with it.
And for what it's worth - never doubt the words of the Haruchai.
But it seems to me that whenever there was aught to interest the Insequent in the Land they would appear, and assuredly, they would use there powers to make it seem that they weren't there at all.. Thus there are no stories of Linden or the Theomach from the days of Berek, and thus the Haruchai never even thought to question the Mahdoubt - server of revelstone - they always hide their presence through their magicks.
Forgive my death.
It was my flesh that failed you, not my love.
ninjaboy wrote: Even if TC condoned his chosen ends (the Harrow to posess the Staff, the White Gold..) there is no way TC would come close to permitting the means by which the Harrow first tried claiming them..
Maybe theHarrow went wrong.
ninjaboy wrote: ...never doubt the words of the Haruchai.
I'm not...If TC sent the Vizard back to their time, told them of the Theomach, then it was true. It just Wasn't true during the 1st, 2nd chrons.
ninjaboy wrote:But it seems to me that whenever there was aught to interest the Insequent in the Land they would appear, and assuredly, they would use there powers to make it seem that they weren't there at all.
Well that was basically the point why I dreamed this theroy up. They could have certainly been needed throughout the first two chrons...it would have been nice if one had of shown up under Skywier when Elena was there.
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
It seems that for some reason the Insequent don't covet the Power of Command...
But for all that, I doubt the battles between Foul and the Lords would have really inetrested the Insequent..
And it seems that the fight between Elena and the reincarnated Kevin had little effect - Foul was still defeated - it's of scant interest to the Insequent if the People of the Land lost Elena..
Sure it may have been 'nice' if they showed up and stopped Elena ressurecting Kevin, or even prevented Kevin from the Ritual of Desecration, but they had nothing to gain from it, it didn't do anything to bring about the distruction of the earth, so why should they be bothered?
If the DID do that, and were heeded, we probably wouldn't have had a book to read in the first place.. It's be like oh, 'back in the old days there was this guy Kevin something who almost killed us all but this wise guy stepped in and told him not to and things have been peachy ever since'.
Forgive my death.
It was my flesh that failed you, not my love.
I was thinking more along the lines, that if they had of prevented Elena from breaking the law of death, the Staff of Law would never have been lost, and Foul would never have been able to get his power back, and cause the Sunbane.
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
I agree with you on the Elohim...they DGAF about anything not directly related to them and their word.
TC, being the Time Warden, can't go back and fix any problems that already arose, because they arouse within the arch. But if there is someone trying to damage something else, or change something signifigantly enough that it would damage the arch...he HAS to do something about it--it's his job, but he CAN'T do anything about it, he's powerless...he's like the Creator.
I see the Insequent, almost as Dopplegangers of the Ravers...instead of being born to propriate evil...they were born out of the nesecity to rpotect time, for Covenant...and through their birth/creation they share certain aspects of his personality as well as duty.
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
Interesting - I didn't realize 'insequent' is a real word. When I thought about it, I wondered if SRD derived it from insequor, a Latin word meaning to follow upon or pursue closely. I connected this with their determined drive to discover knowledge, to pursue knowledge with all of their being. Insequor can also have a negative connotation, as in to pursue with hostile intent. In that case, I connected it with the Insequents' unrelenting drive to defeat the Elohim.
The title Theomach reminded me of the Monomach from Mordant's Need. I would loosely translate Monomach as "lone warrior", which influenced me into thinking of Theomach (also clearly from Greek roots) as "divine warrior". I connect this, with the first poster, either to the Theomach's (and all Insequents') desire to excel the Elohim, or to his unmatched prowess amongst all the Insequent - or perhaps it is both!
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This is a very interesting thread. Yet, i accept Mahdoubt,,as her words have her..She injects doubt. The joke is,, she constantly uses the phrase, " assuredly so"...I Think a bit of irony there. As pointed out already, that she spent her existence studying up on the Vile family tree implies a connection of her "doubt" with the dark tribes....why do i think of Andre Breton's treatise on Dark Humor?
Don't get me wrong, DOUBT is a good thing. Yes, question everything, have doubts about what is True and what is Illusion, allow that doubt to guide you to Your Truth.
Interesting that just as the Insequent can be considered a new "entity" surfaced in "name " in the Last Chrons..the Viles can be considered new as well. Legends spoke of them but we finally meet up with ..them/it,,in Last Chrons as well....These two entities seem destined to " meet" .
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
I just want to say that I agree that the Insequent may have been created by someone going back in time and changing something. They would then spend their whole lives in making sure that they, themselves, didn't create a paradox by being seen in the Land. Which explains almost everything.
Theomach is a real word, too, opaldrake. It can mean either a warrior who battles for gods, or one who battles against gods ... a delightful ambiguity. In this case, I think Kenaustin Ardenol chose his public name because he was destined to battle Elohim, which in turn is a real word that means "gods".
How do we know that TC has no powers? He *is* the white gold. He *is* the Arch. (And I think maybe even he *is* Lord Foul now.) Of course, we're not sure what the definition of "is" is, as it applies here. But no one would call him a Time Warden if he was impotent.
Theomach is a real word, too, opaldrake. It can mean either a warrior who battles for gods, or one who battles against gods ... a delightful ambiguity. In this case,...
I didn't think that Covenant has no power. But he's (at least until the last page) a spirit...if he wanted to stop Linden from breaking the Arch by healing all those soldiers, he couldn't have just stepping in himself, cause that would have caused even more trouble. So he had to send (or allow) Theomach (which STILL sounds a lot like Thomas-real word or not) to do it for him.
Kind of the same way Foul had to get Drool to get the Staff and the Stone.
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
Wouldn't it be a magnificent attack on TC/Linden and their forces if the Despiser sent one of his little buddies (the Ravers) to master the one Insequent that might well be subconsciously open to such "sharing" of power?
That's right...imagine if you will the Harrow being mastered by a Raver.
The Mahdoubt's name had instantly struck me as having a Hindu/Sanskrit origin (perhaps just because of the "Mah").
Though it would not be an exact title match, Mahaduta would translate to "angel" or "archangel" - which is how I viewed the Mahdoubt (kind of as Linden's guardian angel).
Beyondthebreach wrote:The Mahdoubt's name had instantly struck me as having a Hindu/Sanskrit origin (perhaps just because of the "Mah").
Though it would not be an exact title match, Mahaduta would translate to "angel" or "archangel" - which is how I viewed the Mahdoubt (kind of as Linden's guardian angel).
Quite interesting BTB, and an interpretation I haven't seen. SRD uses many Hindu/Marathi names in the Chrons (the Ramen for example) and it wouldn't surprise me. Nor would it surprise me that he avoided this part when he answered about her name for obvious spoiler reasons.
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon
But no one would call him a Time Warden if he was impotent.
