Fatal Musings: Some Other Perils of Time Travel

[wayfriend]

edit : I also get that your dissapointed that the Old Lords didnt seemingly accomplish as much as they did because they had help. WHat is the difference in the Theomach helping Berek make a Staff than the Creator?

I don't think the Creator would have done as much as the Theomach did. Consider how the Creator helped TC. He certainly didn't answer all of TC's questions.

If you met someone with the powers of the theomach, would he not seem divine? What if Theo is an avatar of the creator?

Which is a thought I had writing the last response. I am considering what thread to add that idea into. (But it's not the Theomach who would be the avatar of the Creator. It might be that the Guardian of the One Tree is. Which would explain why the Theomach was so interested in the first place. But shh. Another thread. I don't want to derail this one!)

[Aleksandr]

Re: Although I didn't think the comment Re the bible was fair at all.

I did not direct it specifically at you, and I apologize if you thought I did. But this has come up on several threads: some people are annoyed that certain aspects of Berek’s history turn out to be a bit different than the Legend we hear in LFB. That reaction does remind me of the same literalist impulse that insists on a worldwide Flood and a 6000 year old Earth.

Re: Deus ex machina.

A deus ex machine resolves all problems, generally at the conclusion of a story. In ancient times audiences became intolerant of having tragedies end tragically, so playwrites were forced to have some god or other fly in (suspended from a hidden crane, the “machina”) and provide a happy ending with a wave of the hand and perhaps a moralizing lecture. So far Donalsdon has not done that. When we leave Berek he still has a lot of problems. I had no sense that the Theomach would or could snap his fingers and wish Berek’s remaining enemies into never-never land. And certainly the Theomach will not be doing anything about Lord Foul or the Ravers. As I posted above, the Theomach is playing the role of Elder Guide like Merlin to Arthur. And he’s not going to be around long, since we know he gets left behind at the One Tree. I do however think we’re going to learn a lot more about him in the next book since he seems to know how to keep the Worm from getting uppity.

Re: Now we know it wasn't the Creator who guided Berek to the Staff

This bothered me even way back when I first read it at age 13. We are told repeatedly that the Creator cannot affect his Creation in any way, the Creator himself swears to it to Covenant during the final pages of TPTP. So how could he have shown up for fireside chats with Berek? Unless of course the Theomach is acting as the Creator’s prophet (for lack of a better term). That actually works with the logic of the story, and it also explains why the Theomach doesn’t just solve everything, assuming he could, since the Creator also insists on the necessity of freedom, as we know from the care he took not to make Covenant or Linden his conscious agents.

[Goldenboy]

One thing that struck me about the Berek episode was one thing that did seem unchanged from the legend of Berek, that he wept or grieved to slay his enemies.
Which ever way the Theomach tutored Berek the nature of his Earthservice and that of the Lords after him surely stems to a large part from his own character, I don't sense that Berek is someone the Theomach could simply give orders to.
What I always found appealing about the people of the Land in the First Chronicles, and reports of the Old Lords, was their will to gentleness, courtesy and generosity. Is it possible they reached their apex in that respect in the wake of the Desecration? Anyway, even though Berek is less perfect than legend, I can still see that greatness of heart in him, Linden did not give that to him.

[ninjaboy]

The Creator cannot directly interfere with the Land, but he does seem to be able to influence indirectly - throuch characters such as Covenant and presumably, the Theomach.. And maybe a whole score of others...

That the Creator does so is significant, but is there any significance in that the Theomach acted 'as a Phophet' or carried out the actions of the Creator?

Is there perhaps some relationship between the Creator and the Insequent that we could deduce from this? Is there perhaps any significance in that the Creator is known as 'the Creator' and the insequent are known as 'the Mahdoubt', 'the Vizard' etc?

[Relayer]

I don't sense that Berek is someone the Theomach could simply give orders to.

I agree. At one point, Berek tells him (paraphrasing) "you will teach me, but my choices are still my own. Now leave me and Linden alone."

[iQuestor]

Another point about berek I brought up in another thread -- he didn't know about White Gold at all when Linden showed it to him!!!

In the first chrons, white gold was known to everyone by legend, as well as the bearer -- berek Halfhand reborn, with a White Gold ring, come to save or damn.

I think this legend is the Theomach's doing somehow.

[Ur Dead]

Wayfriend
The part where you stated about the unfettered. Got me to ask about.

the followers of Sword or Staff

That part (or at least) of the Sword is still unknown. The War Lore has been referenced several times in the Chronicles. (When Amok was questioned at the Lorestat for one.) Reader knowledge is still unknown on how the average soldier fought against Foul's armies. I can inject that is isn't like one would think using our own era's. You have to remember that the people in the Land had some form of magic ability. And wouldn't they fight using Earthpower and Sword at the same time? But so far we don't know the specifics about the War Lore.

Some of Foul's critters were very nasty indeed and it took an exceptional soldier to stay in place instead of breaking/ being routed or one whom was trained in a lore that enhanced their ability/resolve.

I don't think SRD will address the path of the War Lore because of the limited time needed to explain it. It would take another time travel, or two by Linden (and others,... TC maybe) to explain how the Warward trained and fought.

But your assay has opened up a train of though.

[wayfriend]

I don't sense that Berek is someone the Theomach could simply give orders to.

I agree. At one point, Berek tells him (paraphrasing) "you will teach me, but my choices are still my own. Now leave me and Linden alone."

I agree. Berek was not unimportant, and he certainly influenced events.

Berek had the will. The Theomach had the knowledge. They created the future Council of Lords together.

Nevertheless, the Theomach was a guy who could say, "you want to do this, something good will happen, trust me", or say "don't do that, something bad will come of it, trust me". He knew the future. That means this knowledge guided him in guiding Berek.

So Berek had an advisor who knew the future, who could make everything work out in his favor. And who knew all the lore Berek would need as well.

The only choice Berek made in being a success was to listen to the Theomach. After that, it was a greased track to a done deal. I can't give Berek any credit for that.

I don't think I have too strong an attachment to the old view of Berek. I think I am the only one who is letting it go! Everyone else seems to persist in their desire to see Berek be a kind of hero that we now plainly know that he isn't. He was a strong man, careful of people, a good leader. But he's not responsible for creating the Council of Lords, the institutions, which led to the great deeds of Loric's and Kevin's times.

[IrrationalSanity]

Oh, I never had any illusions about Berek in the first place, so I'm happy to see anything that is revealed. But, who knows how long the Theomach stayed with him before Berek said "Ya know, that gal's stick was a pretty cool fashion accessory. Kinda useful too. You wouldn't happen to know where I could get me one of those, would you?"

Then whoosh! Berek's off on his own quest for the One Tree, which is really what ol' Theo was after in the first place.

It could very well be that everything else that led to the council was still all Berek...

[dlbpharmd]

I no longer have that lofty opinion of Berek either, but I think that it was an opinion that SRD wanted us to have. I'm thinking specifically of the appearance of Berek in the throne room of Foul's Creche, more specifically, how he towered above all of the other High Lords.

[Aleksandr]

But he's not responsible for creating the Council of Lords, the institutions, which led to the great deeds of Loric's and Kevin's times.

How sure of that are we? It's a pretty good guess that the Theomach guided Berek to the One Tree, helped him obtain a limb despite the Worm and helped make the Staff of Law. Beyond that do we know what he told Berek to do? It's at least possible that the Council of Lords was not founded until after Berek returned (alone) with the Staff and that that really was Berek's idea, or maybe even an idea the Queen and his followers came up with seeing how Earth-powerful Berek had become. Until we know more about the matter (and I suspect we will) we shouldn't be too certain of the specifics.

[Relayer]

Agreed. I always enjoyed seeing Berek as the great magical hero but as I've stated in other posts I have no attachment to it. And I have a greater appreciation of what he did go through.

[Relayer]

Double post... but hey, it's almost a week later

I was re-reading part of FR and noticed that Stave related something about the events on Mt. Thunder at the end of LFB. This "legend" as remembered by the Haruchai and Ramen speaks of how the Ur-lord saved the party by calling on the power of the ring. But we know that what really happened was: TC stood there like his unbelieving I-will-not-take-action self until Bannor grabbed his hand and touched it to the Staff. This is what triggered the wild magic and saved the Quest. Yet to hear the story now, TC acted like a great hero.

Isn't this really the Berek situation in reverse? We know how it really went down in LFB and then are shown how it's been remembered 7000 years later (even though there were Haruchai present, with their total recall memories). In Berek's case, we'd been told the legend, and now we've learned the 'real story.' Although of course Berek was no unbeliever, and took action... but the point is how stories and characters are changed and embellished through time.

[Nerdanel]

I'm thinking that the Theomach wasn't there in the "first" past. He only appeared in order to keep the timeline from unraveling and possibly also to get a chance of proving himself at the One Tree. Possibly he diverted Linden at this specific time and place only so that he could get a shot at the One Tree with the excuse of keeping continuity intact.

I think Berek didn't really need the Theomach to become a great High Lord. Hurtloam would have been found eventually and its significance discovered. Unfettered Ones could have been a homemade invention. Knowledge about the white gold could have come in a genuine prophecy made by a prophet, such as Berek. Even the Seven Words of Power might not have been as unreachable as they seemed, since Berek still dreamed about them. And as for the rest, if the Insequent can learn lore on their own, why not Berek?

In any case, the Theomach has a lot of mopping to do. I fear that he may need to kill every single person whose life Linden saved. Otherwise their and their children's actions would cause uncountable, spreading ripples.

I think also the Staff of Law case was carefully constructed so that it in fact was NOT a stable time loop in the first place.

1. Anele loses the Staff and is transported to the future.
2. The Waynhim fetch the Staff and bring it to their cave.
3. The Waynhim keep the Staff safe and die one by one.
4. Anele appears, without the Staff.
5. The ur-viles try to make Anele remember, but it doesn't work so well because the Staff is moved from its original place and well hidden beyond the illusions of the last Waynhim.
6. Linden arrives in the Land.
7. Linden decides to get the Staff of Law, but doesn't know where it might be.
8. Linden travels to the past with the ur-viles. The ur-viles follow a fresh trail to the Staff.
9. Linden gets the Staff and a tribe of Waynhim who aren't dead yet at this point of time.
10. Linden departs for the future. The Waynhim cave is empty of Waynhim and the Staff of Law, but the Arch of Time remains intact even though history is changed, since the Waynhim and the Staff had done nothing but remain hidden.
11. In the changed timeline, everyone's search for the Staff of Law in the present is truly in vain.

[shadowbinding shoe]

This is a good post (and topic) Wayfriend.

There were a couple of things that contradicted my assumptions in the visit to the past.

The Unfettered - I always assumed they were an invention made by the New Lords and had nothing to do with the Old Lords. The Old Lords sufficed. They knew practically everything. The New Lords on the other hands believed they were a shadow of the Old. They were more humble. Closer to nature. The Unfettered institution fitted them perfectly. Couldn't it be their own invention like the Oath of Peace is something they created on their own? Kevin never consulted with wise recluses for example.

I may have been in the minority but I always believed Berek was someone from our world. Maybe that homeless drunk the singer mentions. He finds himself in the human kingdom and gradually gains power and the heart of the Queen. The whole Berek reborn legend implied this to me. If he's from our world and had a white gold ring we don't have to ask ourselves "how did he wake the firelions?" if saying some words was enough why is it considered such a great fit? And even more basically, how did he get the branch from the One Tree? By climbing up it with a trusty saw in hand? Or by saying Melenkurion Abatha? It makes less sense to me.

And finally, the legendary Ak Haru guardian of the One Tree sounded like a Haruchai to me. To find out he's someone else entirely is strange, like discovering that the father of horses is in fact a mule.


I think we deserved more time with Berek as well if we're there already. And the whole "is everything predetermined?" is still up in the air after this.

[Plissken]

On the subject of Berek's heroism: Covenant is Berek Reborn, and his heroism is based on, and increased by, his humanity and his flaws and weaknesses. It's kinda the point of the books.

Why would the "discovery" that Berek was also a flawed human be surprise (much less a letdown) in the Donaldsonverse?

It's kinda like saying, "Hey! That song everyone sang about TC at the end of PtP wasn't at all accurate! Mhoram's trying to put one over on us!"

[lurch]

.Since Way began this thread with ,," don't fix what isn't broken"..I'll start rite there...There IS something broken. Linden's past IS Broken. The Time Travel involved here isn't a " revisionist" effort. The Time Travel here is going back and taking a look at a history of What is Broken, How It Became Broken or How It Was Broken From Its Inception, the very Foundation of The History was Flawed, Broken, from the start. To start over...one must understand misconceptions,,mis perceptions,,mistakes in thinking and perceiving that have led to un-satistfactory,,conflicted, agonizing , present. In an exaggerated form..Linden is surely there..in the Hollow.

So..more importantly, the aspect to grasp is..going Forward in Time..with a New perspective,,a New approach to creating a Future that does Not bring one to Un-satisfactory , conflicted,,agonizing Present.

[wayfriend]

Why would the "discovery" that Berek was also a flawed human be surprise (much less a letdown) in the Donaldsonverse?

It isn't a letdown for me at all, and that was never really the basis of my disappointment. For the reasons you so precisely have stated, among others.

No, for me it's the idea that Berek had so much help, from someone who knew exactly the right thing to do at all times (being prescient), that it appears that there was no challenge involved in what he accomplished while the Theomach was with him. He, literally, couldn't fail.

[lurch]

No, for me it's the idea that Berek had so much help, from someone who knew exactly the right thing to do at all times (being prescient), that it appears that there was no challenge involved in what he accomplished while the Theomach was with him. He, literally, couldn't fail.[/quote]

So..Mahdoubt would not have let Linden fail?? For me, its not success or failure that is the point,,but what is learned or realized. Do you think that Berek got everything right the first time? Lindens struggle with the red flannel suggests not.