FR First Impression

[ParanoiA]

Fist and Faith-

You seem to be validating Donaldson's fears. He said that he was dismayed by himself when he went back and re-read his first six books. He said he hadn't expected to be daunted by his younger self and that he had to accept that he couldn't compete with his younger self - which as I'm sure you know, is when the first two trilogies were written.

But he also said his younger self couldn't compete with his present self either. That he has grown as a storyteller and his urges and focus have changed. They are different writers, really. So, in my humbled opinion, I think all of this is to be expected. We're not going to get the same stories in the same way - we're getting them differently - as you should have expected.

Personally, I like his style in the last chronicles. There's a lot more going on than with the First - we have all of the land's history, PLUS all of this new material introduced in ROTE. With Time being flexible and so central to the theme of Lord Foul's prison and Covenant's destiny, it's only natural the story would go there. And there's enough of the old style that it satisfies my nostalgic urge.

Really, when it comes down to it, there's always far more critical stuff to point out than not. I mean, why do these people talk in archaic, poetic english? Whether they're a Giant, an Elohim, Stonedowner, Haruchia, Woodhelvin - whatever, they all talk in poetic english ON THE FLY mind you, in the midst of a crisis, using words I have to look up, sometimes repeatedly - and NO ONE in the story ever has to ask what these mean.

Not to mention the ridiculous nature of ego stroking over the slightest of feats. I don't think there's anything you can do that a Giant won't exult you about...

[Avatar]

This thread should be a sticky. Seriously.

Great first impression...SRD rescues an unprepossessing Runes with a magnificent follow-up in FR. Struggled through the first few chapters, but all was redeemed.

Ur-Viles, waynhim, Sandgorgon, Giants!

(Ok, the arrival of those last two were, as I mentioned in another thread, a bit disappointing...anti-climatic. They should both have been heralded by the equivalent of fanfares.

The moment where TC discovers the Search in the 2nd Chrons is one of the most powerful moments in the series to me...tears to the eyes sort of stuff. I have to go back and re-read both appearances, because I felt like I'd missed them.

Nonetheless, As gripes go, it's fairly minor. Even Linden started to show some backbone. And she stood off Roger and the Croyel, figured out they were fake, (as I predicted), and generally put on a good show.

Sure, she may well have caused untold havoc by summoning TC, and there's still that fear of her selfishness and insistence that her means can't be evil, simply because she intends good, but she's a lot more open to the potential consequences of that kind of attitude now.

And the history of the Land...wow. Awesome. Puissant beings, ( ) forestals, grim Garroting Deep, the Krill, Andelaine!

Worth the wait?

Most assuredly so.

Re-read coming up soon.

--A

[Seareach]

This thread should be a sticky. Seriously.

Good idea...although I don't seem to be able to do it. Either that or I'm looking in the wrong place!

[dlbpharmd]

This thread should be a sticky. Seriously.

Good idea...although I don't seem to be able to do it. Either that or I'm looking in the wrong place!

Done.

[Seareach]

Thanks dlb. I tried to sticky it. I failed. You're a star!

[Cagliostro]

Y'know, my first impression is that I found it pretty damn tedious to get through. I don't read like I used to, and my attention span has gone down over the years. I used to read the slow and difficult and depressing, and now I tend to go with the stuff that either is particularly heady, but not tedious, or just downright funny. Or better still, a combination of both.

So...I definitely feel a change in the air from it. I loved the beginning of ROTE, as it felt just like the horrible crap that always went on in "the Real World" in the past books, and it certainly did that. But after that, it slowed down quite a bit. The Land bits just seem a lot harder to get through than they used to be, but I think I blame myself more.

This isn't to say that I didn't find a lot that happened in the two books so far interesting. If I didn't see any merit or joy from reading it, I simply wouldn't. I find it interesting that he is mining the past a bit. At times it feels a bit "Star Wars prequel-like" in that these are the characters and things people want to see, so here they are (the Sandgorgons to name but one), but others really make the story that much more interesting. I'd have to say that Linden's little journey to the past in FR really had me intrigued, if it wasn't for all the damn trekking and wondering about things and so forth. I was genuinely excited to be back in Andelain, and hope for more of that once the story picks up again.

But it does seem like Donaldson has been given a bit more leeway to write, which he wasn't before. It seems like modern day editors let authors get away with more and don't hone things down to make a more concise story. I apologize to you all, but, and I felt like particularly FR could have done with a bit more honing. I started to feel like in most chapters, it would begin with a discussion in Linden's head about what had just happened, then with other characters, and then at the end of the chapter, something would actually happen. Then the next chapter would begin with either wrapping up the events of what just happened, then back to Linden's head, then the characters, then on to something else happening.

I know that it is difficult to come back to some place years after you fell in love with it. It never holds up. I had the same experience with Watership Down with Richard Adams published "Tales From Watership Down." I kind of wanted another story, but felt it would be false to the original story. So a bunch of short stories might be good, but would feel a little unsatisfying, and they kind of were. But, I did check out the audio version from the library a couple years ago, and really enjoyed hearing these stories in that way. It let me be a lot less critical. So maybe I need to get the audio versions of the Covenant books and just listen and relax.

[Zarathustra]

Personally, I like his style in the last chronicles.

I like the style, too. I just don't like the story.

[Zarathustra]

At times it feels a bit "Star Wars prequel-like" in that these are the characters and things people want to see, so here they are (the Sandgorgons to name but one), but others really make the story that much more interesting.

That's a really good way to describe it. There's actually quite a few SW prequel comparisons you could make (I've made some myself in this forum weeks ago.) It feels more "polished." You could compare the new, more complex style to the new CGI in SW. But it doesn't feel as authentic. When something new is introduced (like Insequent or the Midichloreans) you wonder why they weren't there all along. Revisionism. And it seems like these things are there for spectacle this time around, rather than for authentic story-telling purposes as was the case when something new first appeared.

At the same time, there feels like an artificial repetition of themes, for no other reason than to be superficially similar to previous themes--like giants being introduced similarly in both the 2nd and the LC, or the award ceremony in Phantom Menace being similar to the one at the end of ANH. One could point out the constant repetition of arms being cut off in the prequels/original trilogy, vs yet another character who is blind (Anele) after a string of blind characters in the 1st and 2nd Chrons. (Why does Anele have to be blind? It doesn't seem to affect his character at all. I wouldn't call him the Jar Jar of this series, but he's just about as annoying.)

Another one: it's been mentioned before how Liand is a poor substitute for Sunder. I agree.


But to be fair, there are times when Donaldson repeats a theme for a real purpose tied closely to character: the Humbled having their hands mutilated. This is a new twist on an old idea, which is exactly what you want in a sequel. That's how you do something old and new at the same time. I also like the Haruchai's evolving role.

[IrrationalSanity]

The whole "Midichloreans" thing had to be the most contrived part of prequel trilogy. It had nothing to do with anything except to provide a tool for Quigon and Obiwan to say "Wow! This kid's got 25 gazillion Force Power!" without using those exact words, and to cover for the never quite stated virgin birth. ("There was no father" = "Conceived by the Midichloreans"? Get real...)

Then, as "fundamental" as they tried to make these little critters seem, they never again mentioned them.

[dlbpharmd]

The whole "Midichloreans" thing had to be the most contrived part of prequel trilogy. It had nothing to do with anything except to provide a tool for Quigon and Obiwan to say "Wow! This kid's got 25 gazillion Force Power!" without using those exact words, and to cover for the never quite stated virgin birth. ("There was no father" = "Conceived by the Midichloreans"? Get real...)

Then, as "fundamental" as they tried to make these little critters seem, they never again mentioned them.

Right, that was BS. Qui-Gon could've simply said "The Force is stronger with Anakin than anyone I've ever encountered" and we would've completely accepted it. There was no need of "critters," as you say.

[wayfriend]

What, no one thinks (as I do) that Lucas was trying to de-religionize the whole Force thing? I thought that was the whole point.

Certainly no one liked having the while mystique and legendary edifice of The Force revised, and in the process reduced to germs. So Lucas gave it up. (And will one day probably edit it from the next release of PM.)

[Avatar]

(And will one day probably edit it from the next release of PM.)

LMAO!!

--A

[Ur Dead]

A Strategic Writer -- a Young SRD.
A Logistic writer -- the Older SRD.

Logistics is the foundation that makes the Strategy work.

[Nav]

When something new is introduced (like Insequent or the Midichloreans) you wonder why they weren't there all along. Revisionism.

I have to agree with that, I couldn't accept that the Insequent would get involved now after standing idle the last two times the Land was in mortal danger. Introducing the Elohim in the second chrons worked well, as it's in their nature to ignore anything that is beneath them. It seems like it's in the Insequent's nature to meddle, so why have they only started meddling now, eight books in? The ak-Haru revelation was pretty sweet though.

Overall I liked FR though, not a lot happened in Runes apart from a lot of set up and a journey back in time that failed to excite me. Revenant was a far more active book and shit happened! Maybe a bit too much for one book, as it felt like an action movie at times, but I've always said that Donaldson is a writer of great moments, those two lines at the end of a dozen chapters that leave you stunned, and those moments were on display in Revenant.

[dlbpharmd]

Introducing the Elohim in the second chrons worked well, as it's in their nature to ignore anything that is beneath them.

At least the Elohim were mentioned in First Chronicles...

[Aleksandr]

The Croyel were not were mentioned in the First Chronicles. Ditto the Nicor and the Arghuleh.
Did anyone have a problem with these creatures appearing in the Second?

[dlbpharmd]

It's a completely different situation, Aleksandr. None of the creatures you mentioned had any significant involvement with the Land. It isn't that the Insequent were out there in the world somewhere; it's that they had this incredibly significant influence in the history of the Land and we're only now finding out about it.

[ParanoiA]

It's a completely different situation, Aleksandr. None of the creatures you mentioned had any significant involvement with the Land. It isn't that the Insequent were out there in the world somewhere; it's that they had this incredibly significant influence in the history of the Land and we're only now finding out about it.

Yes you're right. SRD sucks. He should quit writing.

It's always great to judge a story before it's finished. Don't bother flinching over presumption - just relish his stupidity now, before he completes the next two books.



I absolutely LOVE this response to Thomas Worthington:

Reactions like yours are a constant source of bafflement to me. Over the past, now, 30 years, I've spent HUNDREDS of hours listening to people whine about what a jerk Covenant is, what a self-pitying little bitch he is, what an unpleasant and even reprehensible individual he is--and now that my readers can finally take a break from him, what do I get? Why, what a jerk Linden is, what a self-pitying little bitch she is, what an unpleasant and even reprehensible individual she is, WHY CAN'T WE HAVE MORE COVENANT? (Of course, you didn't actually say those things yourself; but lots of other people have, and you implied the same.) There's an underlying message here that's much more profound than it sounds. But in the meantime, guess what? I am who I am. I write about the characters I write about because they need me to write about them. Or because they're the only characters I *can* write about. If you don't "get" that after 30 years, I can't help wondering why you're still here.

[Guest]

On the whole I agree with, and share, the reasons for disappointment with some aspects of FR that others have expressed: a feeling that some of the storyline is forced (or contrived), inconsistencies, too much irresistible power in too many hands, time travel, no feeling of continuity to the story line, Jeremiah, the colloquialisms and vulgarity, still not knowing what the heck they are supposed to be trying to do, and one that no one else seems to have mentioned - Mahrtiir as the second coming of Hile Troy...

I did find myself laughing as I always have when SRD uses the obscure vocabulary, and there were plenty of great moments to savor: exaltation in Earthblood, Stave humbling the Humbled, giantish mirth and valor, CW and the Staff transformation, Berek and Viles, the birth of the Unfettered, and I happen to like Anele's dilemma.

Regarding Linden always being in the dark and misled, I feel it is important to remember one of the fundamental premises of these books: that un-earned knowledge and power are exceedingly dangerous - The Seven Wards anyone?

I feel it is entirely plausible that Esmer, the Insequent, the Elohim, and other superpowers fear the repercussions of Linden gaining knowledge before her time, for either good or ill, and would resist giving any to her at almost any cost. Also, if these beings of great power have cause to believe that the Elohim would interfere with Roger and the Croyel if the Chosen proved unworthy under MS, then perhaps for them the risk of the world ending due to her ignorance may be far less in their eyes than in the eyes of the readers. And if their own self-serving motives are aided by the charade, so much the better for them. After all, we know very little about the true motives of Esmer, the various Insequent, the Elohim, the Sandgorgons, and the various villains...

The Unbeliever's and the Chosen's paths to self-revelation about themselves and their power have ever been key to the salvation of the Land. That SRD is ensuring that Linden has to figure things out on her own rather than having the answers handed to her is consistent with the previous Chrons...Linden is once again being fundamentally changed by her experiences, "forged as iron is forged" to borrow a phrase, and these changes must manifest in her and be accepted by her before she will be ready to play her part in saving the Land.

A thought about the Sandgorgons - I tend to agree with an assertion made earlier in this thread that there seems to be no logical reason for them to have names since they do not have a way to communicate. I do not recall it being mentioned in the stories but my belief is that Kasreyn, in creating the great theurgy of the Doom, gave each of the Sandgorgons the name that would compel them from the Doom to do his bidding. How could he have learned of any true name a sandgorgon might have? Now, after thousands of years of evolution catalyzed by the rending of the Raver, perhaps they choose to maintain the ritual of naming as a reminder of their past and as a means of identification among themselves. It is interesting to note, however, that there is no mention of a name for any of the six Sandgorgons that turned up at the EITKS battle. Rather, they appeared to stand together as if they shared one mind and responded out of recognition of what Nom was able to achieve for all Sandgorgons.

I look forward to re-reading with the insights of the Watch in mind.

[Zarathustra]

It's a completely different situation, Aleksandr. None of the creatures you mentioned had any significant involvement with the Land. It isn't that the Insequent were out there in the world somewhere; it's that they had this incredibly significant influence in the history of the Land and we're only now finding out about it.

Exactly.

Yes you're right. SRD sucks. He should quit writing.

It's always great to judge a story before it's finished. Don't bother flinching over presumption - just relish his stupidity now, before he completes the next two books.

I'm not sure why people expressing valid literary criticism evokes such ire and indignation. We paid for the book. Donaldson got his cut. We're not hurting him by expressing our feelings and judgments honestly (unlike that rude chap who complained on the GI). We have every right to voice our opinions. And it dosen't mean we think he sucks just because we have a complaint. It means that we're not mind-numbed robots who unquestioningly swallow whatever another human being decides to write.

You're free to disagree. You can make an argument that our points are wrong. But your post is simply avoiding that argument, and making the issue personal.