Stephen C. McKinney Memorial Thread (1969-2001)

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:30 pm

sigh..it logged me out while I was away. That was me, of course.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:02 am

I finally got back my copy of Conversations With God. (If you haven't read this, Fire, I really really really think you should.

) Here's a quote that has to do with the "now-moment" quotes that a couple of Stephen's lines inspired me to post back on page 3 of this thread. But I'll just put the larger quote, because it's pretty cool anyway.

Life evolved through a series of steps in the blink of an eye that you now call billions of years. And in this holy instant came you, out of the sea, the water of life, onto the land and into the form you now hold.

Then the evolutionists are right!

I find it amusing – a source of continual amusement, actually – that you humans have such a need to break everything down into right and wrong. It never occurs to you that you’ve made those labels up to help you define the material – and your Self.

It never occurs to you (except to the finest minds among you) that a thing could be both right and wrong; that only in the relative world are things one or the other. In the world of the absolute, of time-no time, all things are everything.

There is no male and female, there is no before and after, there is no fast and slow, here and there, up and down, left and right – and no right and wrong.

Your astronauts and cosmonauts have gained a sense of this. They imagined themselves to be rocketing upward to get to outer space, only to find when they got there that they were looking up at the Earth. Or were they? Maybe they were looking down at the Earth! But then, where was the sun? Up? Down? No! Over there, to the left. So now, suddenly, a thing was neither up nor down – it was sideways…and all definitions thus disappeared.

So it is in My world – our world – our real realm. All definitions disappear, rendering it difficult to even talk about this realm in definitive terms.

Religion is your attempt to speak of the unspeakable. It does not do a very good job.

No, My son, the evolutionists are not right. I created all of this – all of this – in the blink of an eye; in one holy instant – just as the creationists have said. And…it came about through a process of evolution taking billions and billions of what you call years, just as the evolutionists claim.

They are both “right.” As the cosmonauts discovered, it all depends on how you look at it.

But the real question is: one holy instant/billions of years – what’s the difference? Can you simply agree that on some of the questions of life the mystery is too great for even you to solve? Why not hold the mystery as sacred? And why not allow the sacred to be sacred, and leave it alone?

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:17 am

absolutely astounding, Fist! You're right, I need to read that book. I have always felt that "man-made" religion was just that...man made. It's the human attempt to reason out God. Which, is really impossible, because God is beyond our understanding.

Fist wrote:Religion is your attempt to speak of the unspeakable. It does not do a very good job.

How profound is that? Would it surprise you that I don't go to church? And yet, my faith in God is unwavering, and I live by His Word, and His Son's example. But, I don't go to church, because I feel that religion is man made and uses God for itself. Not to glorify Him. So that quote just struck me as so profound.

I definitely need to get that book. Thank you for sharing that Fist!

ShadowLurker · Post by **ShadowLurker** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:43 pm

I am constantly dumbfounded by Stephen's spontaneous wordcrafting. It takes me weeks to get a verse or poem to sound half as beautiful as this:

Stephen C wrote:He drinks himself to sleep and dreams of God,
of airy crosses waving before him,
like sweet benedictions he cannot reach.
A lost man, raging upward and inward
shaking off holy water like an angry dog.
His eyes roll back, his fists full of repentance
he flings it and himself toward Heaven.
All the while, pleading dreadfully for the fires of hell.

He captured Nathan's pain so eloquently in those 8 lines. Brings me to tears everytime I read it. This line in particular. "Shaking off holy water like an angry dog." Amazing, brilliant, astounding. There are no adequate words. Steve was far beyond genius.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:21 pm

That he was, Shadow.

Huggles

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 9:17 pm

Fools Crow was an Oglala Lakota holy man, and nephew of the more famous Black Elk. Fools Crow made a distinction between curing and healing.

"Aren't there times when, even though their faith is big enough, a person cannot be cured?"

"Yes, and that is when I ask them if they would like to be healed."

"What do you do to learn how ill people are?"

"When I am wrapped up, Wakan-Tanka tells me. I see on my mind-screen the full dimensions of the person's illness. For example, I see that it has damaged their body beyond repair. All that can be cured in and through me is damage than can still be fixed. If an organ is nearly gone, or is entirely dead, nothing can be done. You can fix a hole in a rattle, but if it is smashed there is not much you can do. You sent to me a white man who had cancer. When I wrapped up I saw that his body was filled with it. It was terrible. Then I had to tell him that he was going to die, and asked him if he wanted to be healed. He asked me what healing was, and I told him that it was reaching peace, which was freedom from fear. You see, he needed to know that death was not an enemy, and that dying was only a quick step into the life we are all born for, into the place where we are secure with Wakan-Tanka forever. He was a young man, too young, he thought, to be dying. He was angry, and he blamed Wakan-Tanka for this. He did not think it was fair. Healing is what takes care of all of that. It gets rid of the anger and the hurt, and it also takes away the pain, both physically and mentally. When we are finished with the healing, the person is calm and ready, even anxious, to die. [This was certainly the case with the person he is referring to.] 'Die' is not really the best word, because it suggests that it is the end, when it is really the beginning. That is why, when I learned that Jesus told his followers that they just went to sleep, I liked his choice of words. They more truly say what I have been taught by Wakan-Tanka. We just go to sleep, and then wake up in His and Tunkashila's arms. I look forward to it."

freedom from fear
It seems that Stephen was Nathan's healer.

FYI, Fools Crow's story was told by Thomas E. Mails, who says this in the first chapter:

While he intuitively knew when we first met that I was a writer, he also learned very quickly that I was a Lutheran pastor who believed firmly in Jesus Christ, and he accepted, as I do, that both of us knew and worshiped the same God - although by different names.

And just because I like different quotes about the same thing, Here's Allan Wolf Leg:

The heritage, the philosophies, the message that came from God through Nature to the Indian people, these are the same as what Jesus Christ means to Christians. God came through Jesus Christ and his disciples to the people just as He came throught His agents in Nature to the Indian people. The latter is called paganism... Yet there is no difference. It is the same God.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:26 am

Fist, you post the most wonderful quotes, I didn't make a mistake when I dubbed you the "quote king". These are fantastic. And I'm positive Stephen would have thought so too.

Fist wrote:It seems that Stephen was Nathan's healer.

Oh, without a doubt. A healer of the soul, of the heart. Nathan was in so much pain, I believe Stephen eased that pain, just by being who he was.

Thank you so much, Fist. Those were awesome.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:11 am

Well, I can't keep up with you in the "who said it" thread. My specialty is having a quote for any occasion.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:17 am

LOL!! I just put a new one in there too.

Just got done typing the next entry in Stephen's journal about Nathan. Going to post it soon.

Post by **Stephen C** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:41 am

July 5, 1996 2:12am

Tracie and I have been up all night. No sleep comes when the mind is reeling from profound experience. We live life day onto day, events of one merge with the events of the next, and so it goes on, until such a day comes when it ceases. When the pattern is broken, collapses against the back drop of an event of such significance that life is snapped back into your face, and your eyes widened with sudden wakefulness.

We were dozing on the beach this day. Family, friends, Independence Day, picnics, music, laughter, storytelling, a day of relaxed life. Russ with his video camera, Tracie with her 35mm, me with my micro recorder; all documenting this day as the children built their castles, splashed in the ocean, squealed and sang. “This is the day that the Lord has made, let us be glad and rejoice in it…”

Then, I felt Him, not that He isn’t always there, but sometimes He makes Himself overwhelmingly present. I turned off the recorder and rewound the tape. “Tracie, I think we need to wake up a bit here.” I said to my sister then. She, of course, came immediately alert, no words need be spoken between us. She looked about and I looked about, neither of us knowing yet what it was we were meant to see. Russ was off chasing the children in some odd rendition of the game “tag”. The man is an amazing father. As my eyes watched this, I saw him. Oh, how I saw him and such elation sprang up in me. “Oh praise the Lord, it’s him.” Tracie stared at me. “Who, Steve?” I looked at her and smiled and she smiled. “Whoever it is, your face is shining like it’s actually God you see.” I laughed, “No, sis, but it is God’s will walking toward us right now. That man there, that is Nathan James. Do you remember? I spoke of him to you a few months back.” She nodded and told me to turn on the recorder.

Nathan staggered up to us, wearing as always mismatched shelter cast offs, looking sick and thin, his face hung on his cheek bones like a rag. “Small world, Steve McKinney.”

“So it would seem, Nathan James. This is my sister, Tracie.” I said to him, he nodded in her direction, she nodded back. “I’ve been concerned about you, went looking for you a few times. I didn’t like the way we left things the last time we talked.”

“Well, I’m not found easily. Move around a lot. And about our last talk…” He smiled, his face lighting up. “hard things I needed to hear.”

“Why haven’t you come back to the Gallery?”

“Shame. I couldn’t face you again. You knew my deep secrets. Somehow, that shamed me.” He began coughing. Tracie offered him food and iced tea. He accepted graciously.

“Come stay with me, Nathan.” I said to him. “My apartment isn’t really that big, but it has a nice couch. And you could rest there.”

“I rest here well enough. You trust me enough to offer?”

“Trust has nothing to do with it. You are in need, of so much. My only wish is to help you.”

“You are a rare one, Steve. I dream of you constantly, did you know that? It’s like a strange haunt, like you’re a ghost. But, I see you and you are not. I wrote poems about you, on the street. A lot of talented people on the street.”

“I would like to hear them.” Tracie said then.

“They don’t do him justice, sweet lady. I can tell you’re his sister, you seem to have that same wisdom. Damn, I never seen such palpable insight in anyone before meeting him, and now you.” He paused and smiled again. I could tell he was different, seemed less lost, but he was still haunted by his guilt and remorse. If what he said was true, about seeing some wisdom in Tracie and myself (I don’t consider any such wisdom true on my part, what I got came from my sister) like some aura, then the same was true about his misery. He wore it like tattered coat. But the smile was genuine and not the tainted false one he flashed that day in the Gallery. “Somehow, I knew I would see you today.” He said to me. “If I didn’t know any better, I would swear that you were Jesus in disguise.” I laughed then, what an absurd notion!

“Oh no, Nathan. I am far from being Jesus.”

“Don’t be so sure about that. I’ve never met anyone like you, even so called do-gooders have nothing on you. You are so genuine (the word “genuine” he stressed by grabbing my arms above the elbow). I don’t think you could even tell a lie if you tried your damnedest to do so.”

I smiled at him then, glanced at my sister, she stood quietly, smiled herself. “No, you are right about that, I couldn’t lie. Lying only begets more lies. No good comes from it.”

“And you don’t even seem to care that you are dying.”

“Well, that is easy enough to explain, Nathan. I don’t believe I am dying. Death is just a way into the next realm of existence. I know my passing will come sooner then most, but I don’t dwell on it. I don’t curse God and ask Him “why me?” That would be an extraordinary waste of time, because I would get no answer, and to dwell on it would take life away from this life’s precious moments. Yet, you seem to dwell on it, what is it about my death that circumvents your own struggle with your illness?”

He looked at me as though through me, his hands still gripping my arms. “Because you matter, Steve McKinney. You matter more then I do. I know it. And, your loss will be felt far greater and deeper then mine will be. No one will care when I kick that proverbial bucket. But you, the world will weep, Steve.”

“I’m just a man, Nathan, like you. The world will go on as though I was never here.”

“You are wrong.” He whispered. And Tracie echoed. “Yes, wrong.” Then she locked eyes on Nathan. “My brother seems to think he is nothing special. He doesn’t realize light shines from him, and music lives in his voice. He doesn’t see himself as we see him. But, you see it, and I see it, and all who know and love him see it. You are right, Nathan, the world will be weep.”

This was more than I could take, I began to laugh and brush it all away. My sister humbles me, how can she not see what I am is because of her?
I again tried to get Nathan to come stay with me. Asked him how he was fairing, if he had enough medicine and if the hospital was taking him in when he needed it, did he get enough to eat? He only nodded and said. “I do fine. When it’s my time, I’ll welcome it. I see no reason to try and prevent it. Who do you think stands sentry at the portal to hell? You know, like St. Peter stands at the Pearly Gates? Do you think Lucifer himself will welcome me?”

“Nathan…” I began. He held up his hand. “Okay, I hear you, Steve. And I did hear you, loud and clear the last time we talked. Some things, though, some things, you just can’t forgive yourself for. I can’t.”

“You need to try. It is my belief that God has already forgiven you, your family has already forgiven you. What more is there? Who benefits from your self-loathing? You sure don’t. You must let it go, you must.”

His eyes teared, his hands shook. “I’ll see you again, sometime, in person. Tonight, in my dreams no doubt.” He turned then and walked away. Tracie made a move to stop him, and I shook my head. She was crying as well.

And so, snapped back into the wakefulness of life, we watched him go until he drifted out of sight. Ah, the demons people carry on their backs, what burdens they are! He has made his own hell, his own spirit-burning fire. I asked God then, “what more can I do?” And I felt the answer, no more, only be you, it is you that makes the difference to him. So be it. I only hope his soul hears through the roar of that fire it writhes in.

Time to give sleep another try. Sleep well, Nathan James.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:20 am

Stephen C wrote:I wrote poems about you, on the street. A lot of talented people on the street.”

“I would like to hear them.” Tracie said then.

Me too! I wonder what Nathan's words are like!

Stephen C wrote:“Well, that is easy enough to explain, Nathan. I don’t believe I am dying. Death is just a way into the next realm of existence. I know my passing will come sooner then most, but I don’t dwell on it. I don’t curse God and ask Him “why me?” That would be an extraordinary waste of time, because I would get no answer, and to dwell on it would take life away from this life’s precious moments.

I've got a quote for this too.

But it's in a story I haven't finished yet.

Stephen C wrote:I only hope his soul hears through the roar of that fire it writhes in.

ShadowLurker, I think this one's up there with the line you pointed out last time.

And let's not forget these:

Stephen C wrote:I don’t consider any such wisdom true on my part, what I got came from my sister
...
My sister humbles me, how can she not see what I am is because of her?

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:40 am

Fist wrote:
Stephen C wrote:I wrote poems about you, on the street. A lot of talented people on the street.”

“I would like to hear them.” Tracie said then.

Me too! I wonder what Nathan's words are like!

He never shared them with Stephen.

Fist wrote:
Stephen C wrote:“Well, that is easy enough to explain, Nathan. I don’t believe I am dying. Death is just a way into the next realm of existence. I know my passing will come sooner then most, but I don’t dwell on it. I don’t curse God and ask Him “why me?” That would be an extraordinary waste of time, because I would get no answer, and to dwell on it would take life away from this life’s precious moments.

I've got a quote for this too. But it's in a story I haven't finished yet.

The Way of the Wolf???

Fist wrote:And let's not forget these:
Stephen C wrote:
I don’t consider any such wisdom true on my part, what I got came from my sister
...
My sister humbles me, how can she not see what I am is because of her?

I just knew I should have left that little bit out. But, sigh, being the purist that I am, I have to type out the entry exactly as Stephen wrote it.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:48 am

Furls Fire wrote:
Fist wrote:
Stephen C wrote:I wrote poems about you, on the street. A lot of talented people on the street.”

“I would like to hear them.” Tracie said then.
Me too! I wonder what Nathan's words are like!
He never shared them with Stephen.

indeed!

Furls Fire wrote:
Fist wrote:I've got a quote for this too. But it's in a story I haven't finished yet.
The Way of the Wolf???

No, the one I told you about last night.

Furls Fire wrote:I just knew I should have left that little bit out. But, sigh, being the purist that I am, I have to type out the entry exactly as Stephen wrote it.

Before I quoted those, I could clearly see you considering leaving them out, but then including them for the very reason you said.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:56 am

When you finish that story, the one you told me about last night, I would love to read it.

Fist wrote:
Furls Fire wrote:Furls Fire wrote:
I just knew I should have left that little bit out. But, sigh, being the purist that I am, I have to type out the entry exactly as Stephen wrote it.

Before I quoted those, I could clearly see you considering leaving them out, but then including them for the very reason you said.

Yeah yeah yeah...you know me too well

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:03 am

Furls Fire wrote:Yeah yeah yeah...you know me too well

Yup. Sorry.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:20 am

Fist

ShadowLurker · Post by **ShadowLurker** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:17 pm

....

I have no words

ShadowLurker · Post by **ShadowLurker** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:43 pm

I think I am able to respond now.

Fist and Faith wrote:It seems that Stephen was Nathan's healer.

And many others it would seem. I have read from the books you have quoted, Fist and Faith. They are brilliant works.

Stephen C wrote:Tracie and I have been up all night. No sleep comes when the mind is reeling from profound experience. We live life day onto day, events of one merge with the events of the next, and so it goes on, until such a day comes when it ceases. When the pattern is broken, collapses against the back drop of an event of such significance that life is snapped back into your face, and your eyes widened with sudden wakefulness.

Words of pure wisdom. He leaves me speechless. I have no idea what to say to express how his writings touch me.

Stephen C wrote:I again tried to get Nathan to come stay with me. Asked him how he was fairing, if he had enough medicine and if the hospital was taking him in when he needed it, did he get enough to eat? He only nodded and said. “I do fine. When it’s my time, I’ll welcome it. I see no reason to try and prevent it. Who do you think stands sentry at the portal to hell? You know, like St. Peter stands at the Pearly Gates? Do you think Lucifer himself will welcome me?”

“Nathan…” I began. He held up his hand. “Okay, I hear you, Steve. And I did hear you, loud and clear the last time we talked. Some things, though, some things, you just can’t forgive yourself for. I can’t.”

“You need to try. It is my belief that God has already forgiven you, your family has already forgiven you. What more is there? Who benefits from your self-loathing? You sure don’t. You must let it go, you must.”

How does he do this? How can he know exactly what to say, and say it with such clarity and expression? I would be at a loss for words, but not Stephen. He just knows what needs to be said at every moment. Astounding.

Stephen C wrote:“Somehow, I knew I would see you today.” He said to me. “If I didn’t know any better, I would swear that you were Jesus in disguise.” I laughed then, what an absurd notion!

“Oh no, Nathan. I am far from being Jesus.”

“Don’t be so sure about that. I’ve never met anyone like you, even so called do-gooders have nothing on you. You are so genuine (the word “genuine” he stressed by grabbing my arms above the elbow). I don’t think you could even tell a lie if you tried your damnedest to do so.”

I am with Nathan on this one.

And Tracie, sweetheart, stop that blushing.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:54 pm

Shadow

Many people asked that very question:

Shadow wrote:How does he do this? How can he know exactly what to say, and say it with such clarity and expression?

I will give you Stephen's answer..

"If you drop your mind from pondering the question and just let your heart and soul speak, the answers come on their own. A person's soul is the well where all the answers wait until they are drawn up from the asking. May they be right or wrong, or in the grey shade of things, there they are." --From his journal, 6/12/99.

Peace

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:33 am

Well, not to cause trouble (Moi

), but, my belief about Jesus is that he was a very wise, very good, very loving man. So I don't have any problem with what Nathan said.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Stephen C. McKinney Memorial Thread (1969-2001)