More evidence of The Chosen's incompetence

Post by **wayfriend** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:47 pm

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd, you and I are in agreement on events. And that pretty much proves that your assessment, "Nothing must stop her. Nothing else is really important." is false. She stops. Other things are important.

Edelaith wrote:And if Linden is willing to awaken the Worm with no way of dealing with it, that may signify obsession, but it certainly does not signify healing.

Yikes. You guys can make snap judgements faster than anyone could possibly keep up with it.

Do you honestly think Linden knew that her action of ressurection would rouse the Worm? I never suspected it myself. And there are certainly no words to that affect in the story.

Another case of jumping to conclusions IMO.

No, the forestal completed her staff so she could do that. Covenant called to her. The ring wasn't hers. She has too many enemies, too many questions, and not enough help. Everyone was shouting vague warnings at her but not giving her any information -- and Covenant has been here, he knows all the answers. I would have made the same decision she did.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:10 pm

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Somewhere in the GI SRD indicated that he has gone beyond the mundane and literal goal of TC in the First Chronicles.

I'm not sure about this interpretation. I don't remember Donaldson saying he has gone beyond the "mundane and literal goal of TC in the First Chronicles." In fact, I don't even think he'd say that TC's goal was literal. Just the opposite: Lord Foul symbolically represented his own self-hate. And I'm certainly not saying that the First Chronicles were literal; I'm saying just the opposite. And I'm saying that seems to be the problematic difference with the Last Chronicles: Linden literally wants to rescue her son. Jeremiah is not a symbol like Lord Foul is a symbol. This quest is no longer symbolic, because Linden doesn' t want to save the Land or defeat Lord Foul, but instead rescue her son from a literal threat.

As for the idea that the quest shouldn't be literal because it's fantasy, I would like to stick up for SRD in that most if not all the rest of the fantasy world is limited to quests for the literal, while it was SRD who raised the bar as early as 1977. Perhaps you're not reading the books on every possible level. Because even in the First Chronicles the heroes had all kinds of internal dilemmas to overcome. They've almost always been internally and not externally driven.

Yes, I agree some bad fantasy may have been limited to the literal (like Terry Brooks). I agree that this is not good, and that Donaldson has raised the bar in the past. That's why I'm disappointed that the bar seems to have dipped a bit with this series.

[Whew! Lots of edits done to that post. Sorry about the mistakes.]

Post by **stormrider** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:17 pm

Wayfriend wrote:
Edelaith wrote:And if Linden is willing to awaken the Worm with no way of dealing with it, that may signify obsession, but it certainly does not signify healing.
Yikes. You guys can make snap judgements faster than anyone could possibly keep up with it.

Do you honestly think Linden knew that her action of ressurection would rouse the Worm? I never suspected it myself. And there are certainly no words to that affect in the story.

I agree with that. Although resurrecting TC was an extreme (and seemingly disastrous) idea, I don't think she had any idea she might rouse the Worm. She reassured herself numerous times with the knowledge that she didn't have the power to break the Arch because the ring wasn't really hers. This may have led her to believe that she also lacked the power to do anything as cataclysmic as waking the Worm. Or maybe she just didn't think about it. In any case, she certainly didn't express any "willingness" to wake it.

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:38 pm

Malik23 wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Somewhere in the GI SRD indicated that he has gone beyond the mundane and literal goal of TC in the First Chronicles.
I'm not sure about this interpretation. I don't remember Donaldson saying he has gone beyond the "mundane and literal goal of TC in the First Chronicles." In fact, I don't even think he'd say that TC's goal was literal. Just the opposite: Lord Foul symbolically represented his own self-hate. And I'm certainly not saying that the First Chronicles were literal; I'm saying just the opposite. And I'm saying that seems to be the problematic difference with the Last Chronicles: Linden literally wants to rescue her son. Jeremiah is not a symbol like Lord Foul is a symbol. This quest is no longer symbolic, because Linden doesn' t want to save the Land or defeat Lord Foul, but instead rescue her son from a literal threat.

That wasn't a direct quote. He said that the First Chronicles boiled down to a mere physical confrontation between Covenant and the Despiser. All the self-hate and symbolism ended in a mere physical confrontation: Covenant tore down Foul's Creche. I understand that there is always a certain introspective and symbolical element to any of SRD's Chronicles. Even the ring is symbolical of commitment, since it is a wedding ring.

I'm pulling all this from either the GI or other interviews I've read.

In the latest Chronicles, Linden's mistake lies in thinking that her quest is external (literal) when it is actually internal (symbolical). Covenant's "Find me" should not be interpreted literally. That's why I devoted a thread to discussing what "find me" was intended to mean.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:As for the idea that the quest shouldn't be literal because it's fantasy, I would like to stick up for SRD in that most if not all the rest of the fantasy world is limited to quests for the literal, while it was SRD who raised the bar as early as 1977. Perhaps you're not reading the books on every possible level. Because even in the First Chronicles the heroes had all kinds of internal dilemmas to overcome. They've almost always been internally and not externally driven.

Malik23 wrote:Yes, I agree some bad fantasy may have been limited to the literal (like Terry Brooks). I agree that this is not good, and that Donaldson has raised the bar in the past. That's why I'm disappointed that the bar seems to have dipped a bit with this series.

It seems to have dipped below the bar. But I'm saying that SRD is using Linden to pull the wool over your eyes, and in the long run you won't be disappointed. The fact that much of what she tries to do goes wrong, especially when she exerts power, should show you that.

Malik23 wrote:Whew! Lots of edits done to that post. Sorry about the mistakes.

Post by **wayfriend** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:55 pm

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:The fact that much of what she tries to do goes wrong, especially when she exerts power, should show you that.

Yikes! Another one!

Let's see - she rescued the Staff of Law... got the Masters almost on her side ... rescued Anele from the Masters ... disconnected the Demondim from their Illearth Stone ... evaded Roger's trap ... figured out Kevin's Dirt ... got the Staff of Law completed ... has an Army of Ramen, Ranyhyn, Giants, Haruchai, Stonedowners, ur-viles, waynhim, and the odd Insequent and Elohim following her around ...

Don't see to many failures in the Final Chronicles. You Linden-haters have got to stop making up stuff.

And we cannot yet count the ending of FR as a failure. The jury is still out ... hanging on a cliff ...

Post by **Zarathustra** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:27 pm

I don't doubt that bad things will come from her actions. If everything is going along hunky-dorey, then why does Donaldson keep repeating, "Good cannot come from evil means"?? If he doesn't want us to think she's making mistakes, he wouldn't keep repeating that. Certainly violating time to retrieve the staff was "evil" in a sense. And using the Staff to do something which was never intended by Law (resurrect Covenant) can be construed as "evil." And not forgiving isn't the best attitude in the world. Sure, she's accomplishing some good along the way. But I think Donaldson is setting us up for a tragedy to come from her actions. It can't all be misdirection.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:51 pm

Let's see - she rescued the Staff of Law... got the Masters almost on her side ... rescued Anele from the Masters ... disconnected the Demondim from their Illearth Stone ... evaded Roger's trap ... figured out Kevin's Dirt ... got the Staff of Law completed ... has an Army of Ramen, Ranyhyn, Giants, Haruchai, Stonedowners, ur-viles, waynhim, and the odd Insequent and Elohim following her around ...

Yes, but what has she done for us LATELY?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:51 am

Wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:The fact that much of what she tries to do goes wrong, especially when she exerts power, should show you that.
Yikes! Another one!

Let's see - she rescued the Staff of Law... got the Masters almost on her side ... rescued Anele from the Masters ... disconnected the Demondim from their Illearth Stone ... evaded Roger's trap ... figured out Kevin's Dirt ... got the Staff of Law completed ... has an Army of Ramen, Ranyhyn, Giants, Haruchai, Stonedowners, ur-viles, waynhim, and the odd Insequent and Elohim following her around ...

Don't see to many failures in the Final Chronicles. You Linden-haters have got to stop making up stuff.

And we cannot yet count the ending of FR as a failure. The jury is still out ... hanging on a cliff ...

I don't see many exertions of power in that list.

Post by **Ur Dead** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:34 am

I guess she is incompetence. If it was anybody else. The Staff would have been lost. Anele would have been dead. (From falling from Kevin's watch)
The other person would have been held in prison in Revelstone. (If they wasn't place on Kevin's Watch at the same time Anele climbed it) The Masters would have killed Longwrath and probably the others Giants protecting him (because he see the other person as a threat and Giants are forbidden to freely walk the Land)
The Harrow would have taken any power from the other person and gone on his way. The Mahdoubt would still be sane and ineffective because there isn't anybody to save the Land from Foul. TC would still be dead and part of the Arch. The Ramen & Ranyhyn would never be able to return to the Plains of Ra. Kevin's Dirt would have kept the people suppress. Esmer would have killed all the Masters. The Urviles would have been powerless and on the run from Foul's wrath. The Elohim wouldn't have done a thing.
Roger might have suceeded if he reached the Earthblood in a different time. Ceasures could have ruled the land and destroy the Arch. (TC would be powerless to stop it). The krill would have been powerless to forbid the skurg from destroying it. The waynhim would have been undone by the staff. and one young stonedowner would have never known his destiny and lived a mundane life until the end came. And not know why. Plus Foul would escape his prison.

If Linden is incompetence, it out of a force ignorance.

Besides, if you want to complain about incompetence, take a good look at Lord Foul.

Post by **wayfriend** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:42 pm

Mr. Clegg picks a fight with the Donaldson...

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:Matthew Clegg: I just finished FR and continue to scratch my head. Is it on purpose or does it just happen that Linden has never actually made a good decision in any of the TC2 or FCOTC books? Her only saving grace has been the inolvement of others. If it wasn't so scary that one character could be that wrong about everything this might actually be comical.
Step back! Them's fightin' words. How do you propose to demonstrate that ANY of Linden's decisions in "The Last Chronicles" has been wrong? I'll grant you some errors in judgment in "The Second Chronicles," but even there your assertion doesn't hold up. Who decided to rouse Covenant from the stasis imposed by the Elohim? In "The Last Chronicles," however: well, let's just say that I'm looking forward to your efforts to back up your statements with hard evidence.

(02/17/2008)

YEAH! What he said! Back up them statements, you... you ... you THOOLAH you!

Post by **Starkin** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:59 pm

wayfriend wrote:Mr. Clegg picks a fight with the Donaldson...

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:Matthew Clegg: I just finished FR and continue to scratch my head. Is it on purpose or does it just happen that Linden has never actually made a good decision in any of the TC2 or FCOTC books? Her only saving grace has been the inolvement of others. If it wasn't so scary that one character could be that wrong about everything this might actually be comical.
Step back! Them's fightin' words. How do you propose to demonstrate that ANY of Linden's decisions in "The Last Chronicles" has been wrong? I'll grant you some errors in judgment in "The Second Chronicles," but even there your assertion doesn't hold up. Who decided to rouse Covenant from the stasis imposed by the Elohim? In "The Last Chronicles," however: well, let's just say that I'm looking forward to your efforts to back up your statements with hard evidence.

(02/17/2008)
YEAH! What he said! Back up them statements, you... you ... you THOOLAH you!

Yes!! I'm with you wayfriend! I LOVED SRD's response! Do we need any more evidence that all you THOOLAH members have been wrong about Linden the whole time?

LONG LIVE LINDEN AVERY!

Post by **emotional leper** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:02 pm

Starkin wrote:
wayfriend wrote:Mr. Clegg picks a fight with the Donaldson...

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:Matthew Clegg: I just finished FR and continue to scratch my head. Is it on purpose or does it just happen that Linden has never actually made a good decision in any of the TC2 or FCOTC books? Her only saving grace has been the inolvement of others. If it wasn't so scary that one character could be that wrong about everything this might actually be comical.
Step back! Them's fightin' words. How do you propose to demonstrate that ANY of Linden's decisions in "The Last Chronicles" has been wrong? I'll grant you some errors in judgment in "The Second Chronicles," but even there your assertion doesn't hold up. Who decided to rouse Covenant from the stasis imposed by the Elohim? In "The Last Chronicles," however: well, let's just say that I'm looking forward to your efforts to back up your statements with hard evidence.

(02/17/2008)
YEAH! What he said! Back up them statements, you... you ... you THOOLAH you!
Yes!! I'm with you wayfriend! I LOVED SRD's response! Do we need any more evidence that all you THOOLAH members have been wrong about Linden the whole time?

LONG LIVE LINDEN AVERY!

LONG LIVE LINDEN AVERY! WAS SHE NOT CHOSEN WELL?

Post by **Relayer** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:55 pm

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:06 pm

wayfriend wrote:Mr. Clegg picks a fight with the Donaldson...

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:Matthew Clegg: I just finished FR and continue to scratch my head. Is it on purpose or does it just happen that Linden has never actually made a good decision in any of the TC2 or FCOTC books? Her only saving grace has been the inolvement of others. If it wasn't so scary that one character could be that wrong about everything this might actually be comical.
Step back! Them's fightin' words. How do you propose to demonstrate that ANY of Linden's decisions in "The Last Chronicles" has been wrong? I'll grant you some errors in judgment in "The Second Chronicles," but even there your assertion doesn't hold up. Who decided to rouse Covenant from the stasis imposed by the Elohim? In "The Last Chronicles," however: well, let's just say that I'm looking forward to your efforts to back up your statements with hard evidence.

(02/17/2008)
YEAH! What he said! Back up them statements, you... you ... you THOOLAH you!

What SRD means is that he's going to write the story so that Linden's decisions turn out to be correct when we all know right now they're not correct. In other words, he's cheating.

Post by **Starkin** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:07 pm

dlbpharmd wrote: What SRD means is that he's going to write the story so that Linden's decisions turn out to be correct when we all know right now they're not correct. In other words, he's cheating.

LOL

Ah, You THOOLAH people crack me up.

Post by **Unfettered One** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:56 pm

Random THOOLAH Spokesperson wrote: What SRD means is that he's going to write the story so that Linden's decisions turn out to be correct when we all know right now they're not correct. In other words, he's cheating.

Now THOOLAH is proposing that SRD is going all "Deus ex machina" to make her choices correct?

Post by **Seppi2112** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:00 am

Sigh... you people...

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:36 am

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:Step back! Them's fightin' words. How do you propose to demonstrate that ANY of Linden's decisions in "The Last Chronicles" has been wrong?

We have to base it on what we know so far.
Obviously there's two book left to go.
Anything can happen.
But right now she sucks.

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote: I'll grant you some errors in judgment in "The Second Chronicles," but even there your assertion doesn't hold up.Who decided to rouse Covenant from the stasis imposed by the Elohim?

Who dismissed the Haruchai and allowed Covenant to be silenced in the first place?
And even her act of rousing opened Covenant to being controlled or destroyed by the Kemper.
TC was only saved by Findail, NOT Linden.
Linden's actions were positive in this case only because, time and time again, someone else covered her ass.

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:In "The Last Chronicles," however: well, let's just say that I'm looking forward to your efforts to back up your statements with hard evidence.

Donaldson's just being smug here.
Again we have no idea what he has planned.

THOOLAH!!

Post by **Ur Dead** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:18 am

TC was only saved by Findail, NOT Linden

That's not how I read it. It was TC who forced Findail to act because TC threaten to unleash his vemon wild magic on the Kemper. A power that would have exceeded Linden's power when she resurrected TC.

So there!!

Post by **Bran Pendragon** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:51 pm

Bizarre and a bit sad (

) to see how far some people take their Linden hating.

She's not perfect and she's made a few poor decisions so far through the LC, but she's also made some exceptional ones. Especially given that she doesn't know what's going on, is surrounded by people who know even less or who otherwise are actively trying to keep her confused so she can be used for their ends, and given that none of the problems she's facing seem to be ones that the tools at her disposal will fix, she's done pretty bloody well so far in my opinion, with the possible exception of destroying the planet at the end of FR

I agree with what someone said earlier - if Infelice or someone else had told her that she would wake the Worm if she tried to resurrect TC, then I think that actually would have given her pause for thought. As it is, all these characters who have given her no reason to trust them have told her not to do something without explaining why, then complained when she hasn't listened.

My main defence for Linden's choices that appear to have hindered the redemption of the plight of the Land is the logic that Mhoram gave when TC refused his summons at the start of TPTP. TC was motivated to save a single child from danger, and as Mhoram said, evil cannot be the result of an genuinely altruistic intention to help another person.

That said, I doubt Linden is going to be the ultimate hero of these Chrons, in terms of actually fixing the problems that are occuring. Anymore than TC was the hero of the 2nd Chrons. SRD's made it pretty clear that Anele is the 'hope of the Land'. Linden's role will be in protecting Anele from the forces threatening him, and assisting him to become able to do the healing that's required. And her internal journey that will compliment that is to reconcile that task with her need to save Jeremiah.

I do agree, however, that saving Jeremiah seems a somewhat lesser 'ultimate goal' for a character than TC's need to defeat LF in the 1st, or TC and Linden's need to reverse the Sunbane in the 2nd Chronicles.