Lost Season 4-There Will Be Spoilers

[danlo]

Danlo, I think number 5 was Kate's child

I thought about that too-now is that Kate's child or is it Claire's? I thought you had to be on the roster to be considered a survivor...

[sgt.null]

Danlo, I think number 5 was Kate's child

I thought about that too-now is that Kate's child or is it Claire's? I thought you had to be on the roster to be considered a survivor...

i hope they clear this up on the next episode.

btw - ben is quite the character. just when i feel bad for him he does some more evil thing.

[danlo]

Ben can't be counted as a survivor and neither can Juliette. Ben walking by Sawyer and Hugo was hilarious, where was he going? To get a gasmask? He lies so damm effectively-of course Widmore has major interest in the island but if someone controls Ben in the future someone bigger is behind the whole thing.

[lurch]

..Well. this whole " capitalist explotation" angle isn't taking off for me. I've already made fun of Smokey as an E ticket ride at Disney Island.

Trust was the theme of The Other woman..A fascinating exploration of the difficulties of re-learning what to Trust seemed across the episode. Trust what you think you " know" ,,vs ,,letting go and Trusting a etheral, unknown like LOVE..quite the gordian knot to untie when Loving somebody seems to be a set up for their death sentence..And freekin Locke,,what a sap..I know hes after the Truth of Ben,,Mr Deceit,,but that is his Truth,,DECEIT!...And since when does the Island need protecting??..I mean Smokey is there,, mental derangement from Time differences,,etc..Old man Widmore would loose his mind quickly if he ever put one foot on the joint. I know Bostonians who lost their minds when Ben said " I taped over it!"

And that remains my point. Lost remains a Surreal exploration of the modern human condition. Its all metaphor, none of its to be taken as real in any sense..Trust me!

[ItisWritten]

I had some great theories on this one, but I forget.

You reminded me of mine. So, where are the voices coming from?

IIRC, the camera pans up to the trees when Juliet hears the voices. I call that misdirection. Remember in S1, Smokey almost pulled Locke into a hole in the ground? We've seen all kinds of stations and structures around the island built by Dharma, but nothing from before them. I'm thinking Richard and his people lived underground (which Ben would know from however much time he spent learning from him), and know a lot more about Smokey that they're letting on--another lie from Ben.

Maybe there's a whole network of tunnels beneath the island, and there's some sort of acoustic effect when a tunnel (chamber?) is opened so that someone (Hannah) can emerge unnoticed. Didn't the voices stop just before Hannah appeared, and start just as she disappeared? I haven't checked, but did Hannah even move from the spot Juliet found her?

In addition, didn't Richard first appear to Ben the same way?

[ItisWritten]

Danlo, I think number 5 was Kate's child

I thought about that too-now is that Kate's child or is the Claire's? I thought you had to be on the roster to be considered a survivor...

At the end of the Kate ep, she calls her son Aaron. We have to believe that is Claire's baby. In the same episode, Kate tells Sawyer she's not pregnant, and time-wise, any child of hers should not be so old.

[sgt.null]

and wouldn't a simple doctor's visit prove that kate had not birthed a baby?

[I'm Murrin]

The voices whispering used to appear in season 1 and 2--the earliest hints about the Others involved hearing those sounds and the impression that there were people moving around in the jungle nearby. Harper did seem to appear and disappear from nowhere, and in the past the Others seemed to be able to move around undetected, without leaving tracks. The island may help them, or maybe they just know how to make use of its properties.
As for the underground stuff--there are supposedly "vents" all over the island from which the black smoke emerges--presumably these are also the release points for the Tempest Station's gas.

[Cagliostro]

and faraday/charlotte's real purpose was a fake out as well.

I dunno. If I was Kate, Jack and Juliet, I wouldn't stray too far from the Tempest.

[lurch]

I don't know how you all do it. I have never accepted LOST as a presentation to be taken as " real"..I mean to say, that LOST, from the very beginning, has gone out of its way to emphasis that the show is such an exaggeration of any reality,, that it cannot be taken as " real". The reality presented in LOST is that of somewhere else...

If the reality presented isn't " real" then..its not " real"..its " Illusion"...Its slight of hand..Its magic..Its unknown.. Its Mystery. Yes, a reality is being presented,,but what to do with the reality presented?..Some say suspend disbelief. Well,, that idea is pushed in every episode to my limits of tolerability. ANYBODY surviving a plane coming apart at 10,000 ft exceeds my ability to suspend disbelief. But rather, it and every exaggerated and distorted presentation further engrosses me to accept the disbelief , pushing me to say..if it ain't real,,then what is it?.

.The Un truth of the reality presented is obvious. Yet,,if one suspends the disbelief of the Untruth.. if you can suspend disbelief,, then how is it that one can continue to apply Logic and demand answers? Suspending disbelief implies one knows it unbelievable from the start..The trap of continueing to expect and use logic on what you have already acknowledged as unbelievable seems demonstrated by all the unanswered questions over the seasons of LOST. Is there a bit of Locke in everybody?

There is a way to see LOST and be fulfilled and satisified , without questions unanswered ,,at the end of every episode. Its called Surrealism,, if one needs a label. Surrealism announced itself in the very first shot you saw in LOST.. a close up of an eye opening.. the metaphor visualized by the original surrealists of Mans dual realities., the external world and the internal world...the Island and the Flashbacks..Neither holds an individual's Truth...

I can only suggest a read up of Andre Breton,, the original surrealist, and his compadres and contemporaries...It doesn't take long before one sees Bretons words and work,, all over LOST.

Yet the show engrosses us..The only Truth to this show,,is the feeling you are brought to by end of each episode....That is the Surreal, devoid of logic, aimed straight at the FEEL. The Surreal.. is the only perception.. that this show makes any sense from.

[ItisWritten]

I don't know how you all do it. I have never accepted LOST as a presentation to be taken as " real"..I mean to say, that LOST, from the very beginning, has gone out of its way to emphasis that the show is such an exaggeration of any reality,, that it cannot be taken as "real". The reality presented in LOST is that of somewhere else...

That is the definition of fantasy, and whether I'm reading or watching, I expect a story that offers more than philosophy. Lost does this.

If the reality presented isn't " real" then..its not " real"..its " Illusion"...Its slight of hand..Its magic..Its unknown.. Its Mystery. Yes, a reality is being presented,,but what to do with the reality presented?..Some say suspend disbelief. Well,, that idea is pushed in every episode to my limits of tolerability. ANYBODY surviving a plane coming apart at 10,000 ft exceeds my ability to suspend disbelief. But rather, it and every exaggerated and distorted presentation further engrosses me to accept the disbelief , pushing me to say..if it ain't real,,then what is it?.

I'll grant you slight of hand, but illusion? We're talking about a mass of electrons presented as a story telling medium. I get the impression from your post that for you, logic and plot are secondary to subplot and the metaphor as life lesson. The writers of Lost pile on the references and connections, but, speaking generally, sometimes a knife in the back is just a plot device. As far as I can see, this is an outlandish story heavy on emotion--for us as well as the characters.

As for those surviving the plane crash, the creators have at least been consistent. People from each section survived, and as unbelievable as that is, you could make a case that the island contributed to that.

The Un truth of the reality presented is obvious. Yet,,if one suspends the disbelief of the Untruth.. if you can suspend disbelief,, then how is it that one can continue to apply Logic and demand answers? Suspending disbelief implies one knows it unbelievable from the start..The trap of continueing to expect and use logic on what you have already acknowledged as unbelievable seems demonstrated by all the unanswered questions over the seasons of LOST. Is there a bit of Locke in everybody?

Suspending disbelief has less to do with faith than imagination. I expect logic in fantasy not because I'm unreasonable, but because I know the writer understands our expectations and can do no less than try. I prefer to think my intellect tells me when logic does or doesn't work, but the kid in me laughs because he knows it's the imagination. This doesn't mean an intellectual view of Lost is less valid (your dissertations are proof, even if I don't entirely get them), it's just a different use of the imagination.

There is a way to see LOST and be fulfilled and satisified , without questions unanswered ,,at the end of every episode. Its called Surrealism,, if one needs a label. Surrealism announced itself in the very first shot you saw in LOST.. a close up of an eye opening.. the metaphor visualized by the original surrealists of Mans dual realities., the external world and the internal world...the Island and the Flashbacks..Neither holds an individual's Truth...

I can only suggest a read up of Andre Breton,, the original surrealist, and his compadres and contemporaries...It doesn't take long before one sees Bretons words and work,, all over LOST.

Yet the show engrosses us..The only Truth to this show,,is the feeling you are brought to by end of each episode....That is the Surreal, devoid of logic, aimed straight at the FEEL. The Surreal.. is the only perception.. that this show makes any sense from.

You're trying to say we can't make sense of a story crafted by another human. That they're creating something so far from reality that we won't be able to obtain satisfaction from it piecemeal. If that's the case, I would've stopped watching it a couple years ago. I've seen shows that delved the surreal at the expense of story (anything by David Lynch), and Lost isn't that.

Btw, I don't see surrealism as devoid of logic, just contrasting logic. Maybe this is a mainstream adaptation of the original, but by surrealism's definition, it's also valid.

[lurch]

FYI..from A. Bretons " What Is Surealism"..1924

We are still living under the reign of logic: this, of course, is what I have been driving at. But in this day and age logical methods are applicable only to solving problems of secondary interest. The absolute rationalism that is still in vogue allows us to consider only facts relating directly to our experience. Logical ends, on the contrary, escape us.

Is this not the LOST experience? What ever answer you think up or get,,still does NOT bring you to a Logical End...?

it is written, your wrote: "As far as I can see, this is an outlandish story heavy on emotion--for us as well as the characters. "
EXACTLY RIGHT!!,,,Go with The Emotions...Emotions are NOT logical..

"I expect logic in fantasy not because I'm unreasonable, but because I know the writer understands our expectations and can do no less than try."

..and what do you base your " know" on?..i mean..your statement is so conflicted..it makes no sense to me....I do NOT expect logic in good fantasy.. perhaps thats why I like Donaldson's TC series so much..

Look, before I go on any further,,It seems to me you have missed a major point. The ability to see Lost as Illusion.. that which is not,,is acknowledgment of its magic,, its fantasy,, its Mystery...to the point of realizing its about Mystery itself..and what greater mystery than the answer to the eternal question..Who Am I ?....Jack;s Tattoo answers that...He walks amongst us but is not one of US.....That is The statement of the Individual..the I of Who Am I?....That was Jacks Question in that episode.. It is also the opening line to Breton's " Nadja".. In the first season the question was.. are you Him?..a variant of Who Am I?,,just a different perspective..Point being.. Lost's foundation isn't in a modern interpretation of the Surreal..Lost's foundation is in The Original Surrealists very words and works..

Sooo.. I gather you missed the great visual metaphor near the end of , " The Other Woman"... The shot of Jack and Julie in embrace as seen from inside the Tempest entry tunnel with the the black white overhead lites flickering , illuminating the sickly green walls..Like....the Tempest hatch is everything that Ben had become on the Island..Power,,deadly,,and in great need to be rendered inert... Lewis and Faraday brought Trust to a point of decision... Trust the Fear that you know or Trust the Unknown, the ethereal promise of the future..For Julie's decision,, she garnered some element of LOVE....The Black White illumination of the tunnel illuminated the sick green walls of confining, that is Deceit..Jack and Julies Love is now outside of that logical, black white ,,ill reality.

Of course.. for how long we don't know..There is no bottom to the depths of deceit...and Ben is entirely the Deceit...and we've been warned by the producers that the freighters...may make Ben look like a Saint...

[Cagliostro]

Gee, I'm not sure any of us watchers of Lost think it is not an illusion. Or is there some definition that I'm missing here? But every lie is better served by sprinkling in some truth.

To be perfectly honest, I think it is important to occasionally view "reality" as illusion as well. I just wish I'd occasionally be given answers like how Lost presents the show.

[lurch]

Cag..if i understand your question....try this...by Illusion I can suggest..LOST is reality as viewed thru the lens of a mind that has gone bonkers..suffered a mental breakdown. Lost is reality as seen by a mind that has come apart. Each episode is a discovery of a building block to make it whole again.

Again..i refer back to Breton's classic surreal..." Nadja"...The title character gets institutionalized near the end of the book....yea..into the loonie bin..AND,,the at the end of the book,,is the report of a plane disappearing over Isle de Sable,,,Black Rock....So Lost picks up where " Nadja" leaves off..When Lost is viewed with the inside out reverse imagery perspective..It all works...Its like you can see all the tricks of the magician..hence,,no unanswered questions at end of episode...

.Everything is metaphor,,Jack was cold LOGIC but has turned the corner..,Kate is Free Will,, Sawyer is Animal Instincts..self preservation..Locke is Faith, heck, Blind Faith...Julie is Trust.. Ben is Deceit..Sayid is Seeking Truth or the bearer of Truth...Shannon was Vanity....etc etc....all the pieces of a shattered personality...and yes some elements get the boot,,death..no longer needed or wanted....Example ..Mike and Walt.. Walt is Free Child,, the unencumbered , not restricted by adulthoods, religion, society, governments, education,,parameters, indeed the unbounded free childhood,, that the artist Michael naievely tries to keep hold of and will do anything to not loose possession...Walt is back and its a matter of time before Mike comes looking for him..because he is the artist..the potential of the artist.

So..it all works,,,by simply acknowledging...its all exaggerated and distorted something..These characters are cardboard thin,,really not that much depth to them. Its just a matter of listening to what they say and watching what they do,,before you see what they represent.....

In season 1 and 2,,the word " crazy" was repeated several times in just about every episode...Season's 3 Julie used "Trust" alot in every episode she was in..Notice how much the word is used in OtherWoman..

Sure, one can view this show at the plot level only,,and be entertained and manipulated by the Wizards of LOST, THey are the best. But,,there is no Logical End to a show that doesn't include Logic in the process. Rather than set one self up for the big frustration..with all these little frustrations..it seems to me to be cooler to take a step to the side and see the cards going up the sleeve and rabbits dropping into the box..Perhaps when somebody else tries to pull a trick on you..you'll know it for what it is..

The great paradox here..is that just like jjAbramson at the onset of Lost said.." originally,Lost was going to be the Ultimate Reality show.".

[Zarathustra]

Lurch, I sympathize with your frustration. I get the same feeling in a few discussions about The Chronicles, when people ask questions about the Land in literal terms that miss the figurative point. And I think your surrealistic view is a valid interpretation of this show.

However, I think there is more going on that one single unifying philosophical message, and I think it can be misleading to apply singular, isomorphic allegorical significance upon any particular character (and doesn't doing so run counter to the aims of surrealism, anyway? Subjecting a work of art to a logical scheme?). For instance, Locke does seem to be faith driven. But what does that have to do with John Locke the philosopher? JL the philosopher was an empiricist, as well as a profound political thinker. His idea of a social contract, for instance, would seem opposed to Locke's (the character) emerging tyranny in Othertown. And the "Tabula Rasa" theory of John Locke (the philosopher) was the name of Kate's first episode, suggesting a different connotation for "blank slate" than the epistemological one the philosopher intended.

And we have similar problems with Desmond David Hume. The writers claimed that Desmond represents determinism, but Hume also believed (paradoxically) in free will--and he was one of the most famous skeptics. Clearly, the writers are pointing us towards philosophical speculations, but these don't always pan out in one-to-one isomorphisms as you might expect.

The notion of reality vs illusion is certainly mixed up in all this. And memory's role in helping to determine that boundary line is being explored. But memory and time are being used perhaps to greater effect in exploring their importance in the notion of Self, an existential theme. The phenomenological quality of temporality itself is a fundamental constituent feature of one's Self, how one defines and understands his Self as a unified, continuing process. The danger of madness was particularly explicit in Desmond's most recent episode, illustrating the danger of coming "unstuck" in time. Donaldson stresses this too: the linearity of time is crucial to our rational relation to it. Mental instability results from an inauthentic relationship with our own temporal nature (inauthenticity such as an inability to get over a loss in the past--Penny--or the futility of avoiding the future and the mortality that future entails--Charlie).

So while it's true that surrealism as an artistic analysis can be useful in thinking about this show, I think that there's much more going on. I don't think it's ultimately about not providing answers and reveling in mystery. I think it has some definite things to say about the human condition.

[Hyperception]

Great discussion, some good points here.

I’ve only been watching for the past five weeks or so, and generally while having conversations with Beorn, so needless to say, I have no clue.

I was struck by the number of philosophers names invoked on the show, both from the Enlightenment and more recent times, such as the character Said (political philosopher Edward Said was a drinking buddy of my Pop, along with George Carlin and Hector Elizondo in a bar featured in Trading Places, but I digress).

I’m not really sure whether this might not belong in a thread on Relativism and Realism in The Close, but did anyone catch Ben’s comment in last week’s show about research being conducted in Gainesville, FL? While I am not at all skeptical that a great deal of clandestine and well funded research goes on here in Gator Town (after all, we did invent Gatorade), it struck me that any kind of hush-hush research serious enough to affect the outcome of whatever the Dharma Project is doing would be likely to take place in less of a cultural backwater. This immediately led me to wonder whether the show’s producers had digitally tailored episodes for various media markets around the country. So I guess my question is, did anyone outside of Florida hear him reference Gainesville? If so, this would mean the show is taking a more realist approach, otherwise a more relativist one.

[wayfriend]

I can look for the reference in tonites recap...

[danlo]

I watch the show because I like to speculate and have my mind blown on a regular basis. Free drugs man! No, just joking, I don't care what you call it it just fascinates me. I'm anticipating that tonight's episode will be awesome not only because the 6th is revealed but it has to cover alot of ground to catch up and explain after being semi-stuck with The Other Woman.

[Hyperception]

Heh.

I must have been half asleep at the time last week
It was something about the Virgin Mary. Nothing to do with research.
But still, why Gator Town...?

[sgt.null]

last night's episode was heart breaking.