Linden and Ceer

[iQuestor]

I see Findail's motivations as a bit more complicated.

There's an important bit of information that Donaldson revealed in the Gradual Interview that I think wasn't stated well in the story. And that is this: Vain's transformation was necessary for creating the new Staff of Law. It wasn't just an accident that provided a clue to Vain's purpose; it was a mandatory element of his purpose. If it did not happen, no new Staff could have been created, as there would not have been anything of the One Tree in it.

Surely Vain knew this. And Findail must have known this, too.

So the moment when Vain is transformed is a critical turning point. If Vain is turned around and sent back to the Land before this moment, he fails. But once the moment is reached, there is no more need to be on the Isle, and the danger is that Vain will be destroyed or sunk with the Isle.

It doesn't surprise me that Findail acts differently on both sides of that critical moment. But what changes for him, and why, is hard to fathom.

Let's assume, for a moment, that this is something similar to why Findail healed Vain after the warped ur-viles attacked him. That is, Findail may wish Vain's purposes to be abandoned, but if not abandoned, he fears it going wrong more than going well.

This fits. Findail didn't warn anyone about the Despiser's plan UNTIL Vain was transformed because he feared Linden trying to merge them without the essence of the One Tree. However, once Vain was transformed, it became time to get out of Dodge.

In the text, it's about one page from when Vain is transformed to when Findail shouts "You must stop him". About twenty seconds in real time, maybe.

Awesome post WF. as usual. you rock in all matters chrons.

[Evans Caamora]

Those are some interesting points, Zal. Especially in light of what the Haruchai had become in the Last Chronicles.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Wayfriend - I may be in a small minority in this but for me if a story reads a certain way, an author's words to the contrary won't badge me from my opinion. Once a story is finished and written and published it has a life of its own which is larger than the author's say so. Now that a third chronicle is written I may have problems holding on to my opinion if Donaldson decides to revisit this issue, but even then I would think that that is the new slant given in the new series and not part of the original second chrnicle.

Explanations given in the books themselves tramp an explanation given afterwards in discussions with the author any day.

While Donaldson gives this explanation for what happened on the islands of the One Tree, his explanation makes less sense to me than the one we were given in the books themselves which was that the journey to the One Tree was made to snare Findail into their company and that the reason why Findail was not more helpful was that he hoped the others would despair and give him the ring so he could heal the Land his way. We can see why he heals Vain towards the end of the books when he thinks there's little chance the others would deviate from their course but why doesn't he discourage them more from going to the place where a necessary ingredient for his imprisonment was gotten?

His help is measly and gradual. I'd say he only becomes part of the group and somewhat shares their vision during their fight against the Clave. If he was so eager to help Vain's mission why is he so angry that Vain managed to escape the Elohim's prison?

[Manny Calavera]

Brinn states that he wants to punish Linden by forcing her to state the Sandgorgon's name, effectively wishing her dead.

I found that to be one of the most darkly amusing parts of the entire chronicles, I actually laughed out loud, the extremity of the Haruchai at it's finest ..

What shocked me far more in that exact scene,was the lack of concern by the Huruchai for the search as a whole.My god !! Think what Nom would have done to Starfare's Gem,just trying to get to linden ! To deal out this 'punishment'

(Which I privately thought was almost just desserts,given her
recent actions...) "Are you not evil..."?

The scene where Honniscrave,(and the few crew he chose to help him below decks) looses the moorings of the mainmast into the water,and the damage it dealt to the ship,would have really pailed in comparison to Noms potential
antics,had she been forced to call his name.

[wayfriend]

Wayfriend - I may be in a small minority in this but for me if a story reads a certain way, an author's words to the contrary won't badge me from my opinion. Once a story is finished and written and published it has a life of its own which is larger than the author's say so.

I think that's fair enough. But if the question is about a character's motivations, as this is, then I think it's fair to wonder about the author's plans when he designed those motivations. And Donaldson didn't add the bit about the necessity of Vain's transformation after the story was done -- it was there all along, but just somewhat invisible, or at least unappreciated.

There seems to be nothing that contradicts Findail's later statement, that he had hoped things would work themselves out without his need to reveal the Despiser's plans.

However, if you add in this extra bit about the necessity of Vain's transformation, then it follows that Vain knew of it, and Findail knew of it, and the ur-viles who made Vain knew of it, and the Dead knew of it, and Caer Caveral knew of it.

And assuredly Lord Foul, who said almost two books earlier that Covenant would place the ring into his hand, and that nothing could stop that event, knew that Covenant would not destroy the Earth at the Isle. So *I* don't think that that was Lord Foul's plan at all, despite Findail's statement. I think Foul planned that what happened would be what would happen, and desired it to happen. To teach Covenant that it was impossible to use his power to defeat Foul. This was the most mindcrushingly devastating way to teach him that, and that's Lord Foul's M.O.

But I don't believe Findail understood Lord Foul's plans. The Elohim are effectless against him. I am sure this also means that they cannot comprehend him, either. So Findail may have been mistaken, but he was probably honestly mistaken if he was.

[Manny Calavera]

wayfriend...what do you mean by breaking the law of summoning ? How could TC go about doing that?

[wayfriend]

(Darn it. I'm not watching what forum I am in!!!! It refers to Covenant's actions at the One Tree, pushing Linden back. That's not a spoiler --- but the thread I mentioned is in the FR forum.)

[Manny Calavera]

So you think if he had been succesful in sending Linden back to Haven Farm,he would have broken this law by dong so !? I dont understand... But ok.

[rdhopeca]

So you think if he had been succesful in sending Linden back to Haven Farm,he would have broken this law by dong so !? I dont understand... But ok.

The theory is that under the Law of Summoning, you can only return upon the death (or reasonable facsimile thereof) of the person who summoned you...unless that person dies during the summoning, a la Atiaran and Hile Troy.

By sending Linden back, instead of waiting for Foul, their summoner, to be dispatched, TC is breaking the Law.

[shadowbinding shoe]

You can also be voluntarily released by the summoner without having him killed. Example: when Mhoram summons Covenant to the Land in the beginning of TPTP, after Covenant convinces him to release him in order to save the snake bitten girl, Mhoram lets him go without any harm coming to Mhoram.

But what Wayfriend is talking about is different. One person summons you (Foul) and then another (Covenant) countersummons you.