Parenting Issues

[Menolly]

I'm not really sure this is the correct forum on the Watch for this thread, but none of the other areas seem as good a fit.

Overall, I think Hyperception and I do a fairly good job of instilling guidance and values to Beorn, but occasionally there is that frustrating issue where we'll discuss things until we are all blue in the face, and leave the table feeling like none of us have broken through to the other.

I would like this thread to be a place for those members on the Watch who are parents to present these quandries, and perhaps get different points of view and/or suggestions for ways to either present what we are trying to say, or to come to understand what our children are saying.

Yes, we currently have a for example going on...

I just received a phone call from Beorn's school. He has been riding the school bus all year (first year in public school, so first year riding the bus), and with Beorn's lack of social skills, Hyperception and I have been holding our breath all year waiting for an issue to come up. Since he is ESE (used to be called special ed), the back up plan was to get him on "the short bus" if needed, but he has ridden the regular neighborhood bus all year. This was the first incident we have heard about. Yet, it is exactly the type of incident we expected from the start.

The school wanted to inform me that they spoke with Beorn, and they did not find him at fault. "He did nothing wrong, and he is an upstanding young man." "But, what happened?" "Ask Beorn, and I am sure he will give you the details..."

So...according to my son...

When he got on the bus after school yesterday, there was one empty bus bench left. Naturally he took it. A girl getting on after him wanted that seat, and told him to move. He refused. They argued and the girl finally told him to shift over. Beorn was annoyed, and as there were other seats with only one student in them, he told her no. She pushed him towards the window, but he is so much larger he didn't budge. She then attempted to shift his belongings he had next to him on the seat, he grabbed for them and damaged some carrying straps.

This went on from the time she got on the bus until the first bus stop after leaving the school. Why the driver would drive with a student standing in the aisle when there were seats available is beyond me, but I am not focusing on that right now. After the first stop, other seats were empty, so Beorn got up and moved to another one, and the girl sat in that seat.

In hindsight, Beorn is guessing that perhaps this girl always sat in this seat alone. But again, that is a typical social interaction he would not have picked up on.

I am guessing the school got involved because of the girl physically pushing him. As I said, the details were not given to me from the school.

I can understand why Beorn got aggravated, but I am trying to get him to understand that it is a priviledge to ride the bus, and as such all students have an equal right to sit where they want. No, this girl did not have the right to tell him to completely move to another seat, but he did not have the right to refuse to shift over to allow her to sit down, even if other seats were available. He is refusing to accept his responsibility in that regard.

Overall, it could have been worse I guess. The girl was the aggressor, and Beorn only refused to share, and moved to another empty seat at the first opportunity. But, how do I get through to him that this girl did have the right to sit next to him, even after aggravating him? He is refusing to say he should have shifted, since other seats were available, whereas I am trying to explain as community property everyone has the right to sit where they wish as long as the place is available.

Am I wrong? Is he? I would normally just drop this, but I do see it as a good social skills learning opportunity. I'm just stuck on how to break through my point to him that communal rights overtake personal comfort at times.

And yeah, I know. If this is the worse I have to deal with from a male teen, I am damn lucky...

[Mortice Root]

Good idea for a thread, Menolly.

I do find it a little odd that the school wouldn't report the occurence too you. It would seem that relying on one of the participants to report what happened would be a sure way to avoid the parents learning the full story - as opposed to getting it from a third party observer.

Be that as it may....

I think both of you have vaild points. I agree that it's reasonable for him to feel frustrated, and that's totally ok, but I think you're right, and he ultimately should have moved. So...

What about fliping it around for Beorn. In other words, having him imagine the roles were reversed, and the girl was in the seat first etc... That may seem simplistic, but again, it might be helpful in getting the point across. Just my

[Menolly]

Thanks for the reply, Mortice.
Took that route.
Beorn said since he wouldn't care where he sat if he had to share with someone, that he would have gone to the next seat.
I even asked, "what if everyone told you 'No, you can't sit here?'" He just shrugged and said that would never happen, so it wasn't worth considering that possibility.

Ah...the literalism of an aspie...

We're at the point where I explained you approach the situation as if that possibility could happen, so there are unspoken rules in place to prevent it. He just kept shaking his head and muttering to himself, "That doesn't make sense. I can't react in a way that doesn't make sense."

And that's where we're at, for now.

[stonemaybe]

I'm probably missing the point completely here, as I'm neither a parent nor someone with experience of Asperger's, but...

The first thing that crossed my mind when I read the above was that girl took a fancy to beorn and wanted to sit beside him. Thinking he'd like to have girl sitting beside him but not wanting to seem forward, she said that was her seat expecting him to move over, so she could sit beside him and maybe strike up a conversation. Very nervous girl + non-understanding boy = annoyed girl and ensuing turmoil.

QED

[dlbpharmd]

I'm not going to be able to help much with this particular example, because I'm seeing this from Beorn's POV - I wouldn't have scooted over for this girl either.

[Fist and Faith]

And yeah, I know. If this is the worse I have to deal with from a male teen, I am damn lucky...

I was thinking the same thing. Did your soon-to-be stepson have a rumor going around about him that he was going to bring a gun to school and shoot kids? When that happens, we'll have something to talk about.


Tell Beorn:

1) He does not have the right to refuse to share a school bus seat. Move over.

2) When a girl wants to sit next to you, you thank your lucky stars, move over, and tell her she looks very pretty today.

[Menolly]

I'm not going to be able to help much with this particular example, because I'm seeing this from Beorn's POV - I wouldn't have scooted over for this girl either.

From the phone call I received from the school, I think they have the same attitude. But, I don't see it that way.

And yeah, I know. If this is the worse I have to deal with from a male teen, I am damn lucky...

I was thinking the same thing. Did your soon-to-be stepson have a rumor going around about him that he was going to bring a gun to school and shoot kids? When that happens, we'll have something to talk about.

...oy vey...

Tell Beorn:

1) He does not have the right to refuse to share a school bus seat. Move over.

check
(he still isn't accepting that though)
*see above, dlb*

2) When a girl wants to sit next to you, you thank your lucky stars, move over, and tell her she looks very pretty today.

He still strikes me as asexual. So far no interest shown in either sex.

...but then...he doesn't seem to notice others at all, most of the time...

If there's one thing I can say about Beorn, it's that he is perfectly content with his own company.

...btw...Hyperception's reponse to your second option...

That would drive her off in a heartbeat! Once they think you're hitting on them, they flee in terror...

[Raen]

Hi Pam, Excuse me for reading your post while Eric was browsing.....I was wondering if you have ever been on the Oasis Asperger Website at www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/ I've been posting there since 1999 since my son was 6. My younger son Gavin who just turned 13 just was diagnosed this year with AS. What Eric was talking about---- well... here is the post I had entered on the website. It covers the horrifying ordeal we had to go through with my son at his school:

My son, who has been bullied since he entered our new school in November was bullied on a daily basis. He was in the Guidance Counselors office almost every day crying for help. He did get some help but it did not stop the bullies, especially on the bus. It made his life miserable.

The worst part of the bullying came right before his birthday. The kids made up a rumor that he was going to come to school with a gun and shoot kids on his birthday. We had the state troopers over our house looking for guns. The state troopers said that if my son came to school with anything that remotely looked like a gun that "Things would get ugly". Worried all night, I kept my son home the next day thinking what if the kids set him up or something.

I didn't know that the school sent an automated message to all the parents with kids in the Middle school that they checked out the rumor and that it was not true but that didn't stop the parents from worrying. 200 kids were kept home by their parents the next day over this rumor. The school officials told me that I probably did the right thing by keeping my son home.

They told me that they had another setting an "alternative placement" for my son and that he would be able to start Monday. The alternative school had been mentioned by the guidance counselor about a month ago to help with his academic problems and offer him a smaller setting to help him. I thought that this was a good setting although I wanted to see what type of kids my son would be learning with.

What happened though, was that keeping my son home to protect him made him look as if he were suspended. My son was mortified. He never wanted to go to the school again. That evening, I called up an attorney who told me that what the school was doing was illegal. She said that I should order the school to send out a retraction letter to all of the parents clearing up this accusation. I live in a small town, everyone in my town had heard the rumor. They couldn't believe it when they heard it was my son because they knew my son was not capable of anything like that.

I called up the alternative school and asked for my son to go and visit before Monday. They said that the people at the alternative school had a pre-school upstairs and that they wanted my son cleared by a psychiatrist before he was able to go to it. I told the counselor at the alternative school that my son was not convicted of doing anything and that I had a lawyer.

I called the principal of the school. He said that he had been interviewing all the kids in the seventh grade and was "sickened" by all of the things that the kids were telling him about my son being bullied so bad. They found nothing more than rumors spread about my son. I asked for a letter of retraction. The principal said the had called the superintendents office and they never mentioned my son's name. Therefore they should not have to send home a letter to clear it. I told the superintendent that we live in a small town and people talk. The letter did not have to mention my son's name and it would be effective enough to clear it.

I told him that the letter had to mention that this was a cruel act of bullying and that I wanted to see the letter as well. I also said that if the letter was not sent out by Friday, I was calling my lawyer and the newspaper. Today is Friday, the letter was sent to all the kids in the school yesterday. It is also online at the schools website. You can see the letter on the school's website:
www.vcsd.k12.ny.us/valleycentralms/site/default.asp

Were still waiting to visit the alternative school. I'm not convinced this battle is over. Hope I could help by sharing my story here.

[Menolly]

Hi Pam, Excuse me for reading your post while Eric was browsing.....

Hey lady. Nice to "see" you. I am sorry it is under such circumstances.

I was wondering if you have ever been on the Oasis Asperger Website at www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/ I've been posting there since 1999 since my son was 6.

*nodding*

What little I have learned about AS has been learned through a lot of individual reading, seminars, training, and volunteering as a parent advocate through CARD, OASIS, and posting with Barbara Kirby on the aol Aspergers Parenting board before she left it completely to devote herself to OASIS. Barbara is a wealth of information.

My younger son Gavin who just turned 13 just was diagnosed this year with AS. What Eric was talking about---- well... here is the post I had entered on the website. It covers the horrifying ordeal we had to go through with my son at his school:

My son, who has been bullied since he entered our new school in November was bullied on a daily basis. He was in the Guidance Counselors office almost every day crying for help. He did get some help but it did not stop the bullies, especially on the bus. It made his life miserable.

The worst part of the bullying came right before his birthday. The kids made up a rumor that he was going to come to school with a gun and shoot kids on his birthday. We had the state troopers over our house looking for guns. The state troopers said that if my son came to school with anything that remotely looked like a gun that "Things would get ugly". Worried all night, I kept my son home the next day thinking what if the kids set him up or something.

I didn't know that the school sent an automated message to all the parents with kids in the Middle school that they checked out the rumor and that it was not true but that didn't stop the parents from worrying. 200 kids were kept home by their parents the next day over this rumor. The school officials told me that I probably did the right thing by keeping my son home.

They told me that they had another setting an "alternative placement" for my son and that he would be able to start Monday. The alternative school had been mentioned by the guidance counselor about a month ago to help with his academic problems and offer him a smaller setting to help him. I thought that this was a good setting although I wanted to see what type of kids my son would be learning with.

What happened though, was that keeping my son home to protect him made him look as if he were suspended. My son was mortified. He never wanted to go to the school again. That evening, I called up an attorney who told me that what the school was doing was illegal. She said that I should order the school to send out a retraction letter to all of the parents clearing up this accusation. I live in a small town, everyone in my town had heard the rumor. They couldn't believe it when they heard it was my son because they knew my son was not capable of anything like that.

I called up the alternative school and asked for my son to go and visit before Monday. They said that the people at the alternative school had a pre-school upstairs and that they wanted my son cleared by a psychiatrist before he was able to go to it. I told the counselor at the alternative school that my son was not convicted of doing anything and that I had a lawyer.

I called the principal of the school. He said that he had been interviewing all the kids in the seventh grade and was "sickened" by all of the things that the kids were telling him about my son being bullied so bad. They found nothing more than rumors spread about my son. I asked for a letter of retraction. The principal said the had called the superintendents office and they never mentioned my son's name. Therefore they should not have to send home a letter to clear it. I told the superintendent that we live in a small town and people talk. The letter did not have to mention my son's name and it would be effective enough to clear it.

I told him that the letter had to mention that this was a cruel act of bullying and that I wanted to see the letter as well. I also said that if the letter was not sent out by Friday, I was calling my lawyer and the newspaper. Today is Friday, the letter was sent to all the kids in the school yesterday. It is also online at the schools website. You can see the letter on the school's website:
www.vcsd.k12.ny.us/valleycentralms/site/default.asp

Were still waiting to visit the alternative school. I'm not convinced this battle is over. Hope I could help by sharing my story here.

Oh Chr-sty...

As I have stated over and over...we have been truly blessed with the charter school system we had Beorn in first grade, and although Gainesville High School is a huge regular public high school, the IEP and ESE team they have in place has made this first year in public school fairly easy for Beorn. We have been on the alert for potential bullying since day one, and unless it is totally whizzing past Beorn without him realizing it, truly believe he does not suffer from bullying at the school.

He is in a magnet program, even though this is also our zoned school, so there are plently of other geeky students there. But Beorn still sticks out like a sore thumb.

I have no idea what I would do with the bullying and rumors Gavin has experienced. Probably take full advantage of our Florida Virtual School, which is open to out of state students, I believe. But I really don't want to isolate Beorn even further than he does to himself.



Thanks for responding, Chr-sty. We will both get through this, and all our guys will make us both proud.

[balon!]

Alright, so there's a couple of things here. Firstly, I've been in a position very similar to Beorn's, even if I wasn't in his situation developmentally. When I was in elementary school, I took the bus to school, and was picked on by not being allowed to sit in any of the seats. Eventually I went to the back and sat in the aisle and cried until we got to school. So I know how it would feel to be denied a seat on the ultimate social monster of schools; the Bus.

But on the other hand, I know what it's like to be targeted by someone who's mindset at that moment is to make your life a hell.

Now, I don't know why the girl wanted to sit there. She could be using that seat every day (like you said) or she could like him (as Stoney said) but from the perspective of the former bullied, my first instinct was that she was just trying to be a bitch when she told him to move, and then would have just publicly embarrassed him once she sat down next to him. You know, the normal crappy things teenage middle schoolers do to each other.

Anyway, I think it comes down that she should've gotten over herself and just sat somewhere else, and was wrong in trying to force him or his belongings over. Likewise, he was being a bit of a dick by not sharing his seat, but if there were other spots open, he wasn't wrong per se. If it's not the only available seat, then tough cookies lady. Sit somewhere else. The thing that Beorn needs to learn (and can only come through practice) is how to pick up on peoples intentions. If he could've felt what she was like when she was standing there, he could've made a more informed decision. If he knew she was just shy, and only felt comfortable sitting in that spot/next to him then he would've been fine sharing the seat/giving it to her. On the other hand he also could've felt is she was just trying to be a bitch, then he could've given her the grand finnale and flipped her the bird.

ANYWAY. Give him my email, and tell him he can talk to me at any time. I was the quintessential chubby kid being picked on pretty much till high school, so I know what it's like and give him some advice from the person I am now much further in the future, and after I've matured quite a bit. He might dig it. Or not.
Whichever.
I wouldn't want to talk to the rambling Greener, either.

[Avatar]

Goddamn! Not to derail this, but I had no idea the whole school-shooting thing was such a social terror flash-point...my gods...mischief-minded kids could keep the entire national education system in turmoil if they wanted.

Anyway, to return to the topic Menolly, my reaction is to say that you shouldn't try and convince him he had to move. The most important learning opportunity in this case is not the graces of random social interaction, it's the point that sometimes, people do things that don't make sense, and sometimes you have to live with it.

You don't know why the girl had to sit there, although she did have every right to. No, it doesn't make sense, but sometimes things don't. And sometimes you have to live with the fact, because people are strange. No harm done this time, but a time might come where you just have to put up with their strangeness impinging on you, and accept it as part of the cost of living.

--A

[Menolly]

Thanks, both of you.

You know, the normal crappy things teenage middle schoolers do to each other.

If only it was still middle school, and not high school...

The thing that Beorn needs to learn (and can only come through practice) is how to pick up on peoples intentions. If he could've felt what she was like when she was standing there, he could've made a more informed decision. If he knew she was just shy, and only felt comfortable sitting in that spot/next to him then he would've been fine sharing the seat/giving it to her. On the other hand he also could've felt is she was just trying to be a bitch, then he could've given her the grand finnale and flipped her the bird.

And that's the crux of the matter, as he won't practice. ...grumble... So, we resort to social "scripts" he can file away in his head for instances such as this. But, so far he doesn't see the sense in needing one in this situation.

ANYWAY. Give him my email, and tell him he can talk to me at any time. I was the quintessential chubby kid being picked on pretty much till high school, so I know what it's like and give him some advice from the person I am now much further in the future, and after I've matured quite a bit. He might dig it. Or not.
Whichever.

I'll make the offer, but you would be the first he's ever emailed outside of family. Just no interest in...relating (?) so far... Has a lot to do with why he doesn't post much on the Watch, unless I prompt him.

However, he likes messging, as a few on my list can attest to. I think the most recent he caught in a conversation when I had stepped away from the computer was Paolo... *blush*

I wouldn't want to talk to the rambling Greener, either.

Are you talking about me???

Goddamn! Not to derail this, but I had no idea the whole school-shooting thing was such a social terror flash-point...my gods...mischief-minded kids could keep the entire national education system in turmoil if they wanted.

*nodding*

It's the same with kids calling Children and Family Services, claiming their parents abuse them, just to intimidate their parents and attempt to get the upper hand in family dynamics. It's beginning to sound like somthing similar happened with a 16 year old girl no where near the compound in the current polygamy case that is in the news.

Anyway, to return to the topic Menolly, my reaction is to say that you shouldn't try and convince him he had to move. The most important learning opportunity in this case is not the graces of random social interaction, it's the point that sometimes, people do things that don't make sense, and sometimes you have to live with it.

You don't know why the girl had to sit there, although she did have every right to. No, it doesn't make sense, but sometimes things don't. And sometimes you have to live with the fact, because people are strange. No harm done this time, but a time might come where you just have to put up with their strangeness impinging on you, and accept it as part of the cost of living.

*snort*

Didn't you and I just discuss this same basic concept in a different context?

[Fist and Faith]

Goddamn! Not to derail this, but I had no idea the whole school-shooting thing was such a social terror flash-point...my gods...mischief-minded kids could keep the entire national education system in turmoil if they wanted.

It's a very, very, very big deal here. www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html


Anyway, the girl obviously had no right to demand that Beorn move to another seat. And whether she demanded or asked him nicely to move over, if there were empty seats, Beorn certainly could have pointed them out to her. Or gone to one himself.

With no empty seats, he didn't have any more right to deny anyone sitting next to him than anyone in one of the other seats would have had. Somebody had to share a seat with her. If she had a history of picking on him, then I assume the school would know about it already, and she would have been told not to sit near him, so this wouldn't have come up.

But I also understand that she started the whole thing off very badly. He might have been willing, even if not happy, to share the seat with her if she had started the whole scene with, "Can you move over so I can sit down?" I can't really blame him for wanting her to shove off.

Maybe next time she's walking toward the seat he's in, he could make room for her before she even quite gets there. Maybe she was going to ask, maybe not. But when she sees him make room, she might sit, and they might talk. Heh.

[Menolly]

With no empty seats, he didn't have any more right to deny anyone sitting next to him than anyone in one of the other seats would have had. Somebody had to share a seat with her.

My point exactly!!!

Maybe next time she's walking toward the seat he's in, he could make room for her before she even quite gets there. Maybe she was going to ask, maybe not. But when she sees him make room, she might sit, and they might talk. Heh.

Oy...and that could lead to a whole different kettle of fish. One I don't know if I'm ready for...

[Fist and Faith]

Oops. Missed this one:

...btw...Hyperception's reponse to your second option...

That would drive her off in a heartbeat! Once they think you're hitting on them, they flee in terror...

Problem solved, eh?

Oy...and that could lead to a whole different kettle of fish. One I don't know if I'm ready for...

I'm not overly concerned with whether or not you're ready for it.

[Menolly]

*shakes head with wry grin*

...love you too, Fist...

[duchess of malfi]

I'm not going to be able to help much with this particular example, because I'm seeing this from Beorn's POV - I wouldn't have scooted over for this girl either.

It sounds like the girl was being a demanding little bitch, and I applaud Beorn for standing up to her poor behavior. (Too bad he eventually gave in and gave her the seat!)

(I know that's probably not what you wanted to hear, Menolly, but I think people should stand up against bullying, rude behavior. The world would be a better place if more people would not give in to such things).

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, after my initial post, I thought more about the girl's behavior. In light of that, it's very difficult to fault Beorn at all. But in general, he should know that he doesn't get to sit by himself if someone wants to share his seat. And in this particular case, after he beat her by not abandoning the seat when she ordered him to, and she still wanted to sit next to him... Well, my general rule of life is that it's better to sit next to a girl than to not sit next to a girl.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Great thread idea!

I'm not going to be able to help much with this particular example, because I'm seeing this from Beorn's POV - I wouldn't have scooted over for this girl either.

From the phone call I received from the school, I think they have the same attitude. But, I don't see it that way.

Here's my thinking... I think all people probably have something of a "social radar" for others' intents. Maybe he picked up on obnoxious "vibes" (for lack of a better word) from her attitude, and maybe that data went into his unconscious decision-making process. But maybe he never consciously thought about it because it's not very "concrete" data, so it's not in a category he consciously accepts.

Maybe you can ask him a question like, "Was there anything about that situation that made you really uncomfortable, but you can't explain in words?" Or maybe you could try to get the story from the bus driver...

But I think what you're really concerned about is that Beorn may not be facing his own (mildly) selfish motives in this whole thing. (or am I wrong about this? I do recognize there are many things that will appear to be selfishness but are really social disconnect.) I do have an idea for ya if this is a concern.

Raen - Wow, that is horrible! Libel and slander in a small town! I am glad you got a lawyer and are warning the people in positions of responsibility that you're willing to employ the appropriate consequences.

...it's the point that sometimes, people do things that don't make sense, and sometimes you have to live with it.

I was thinking roughly the same thing when I read the original comment about people not making sense. Nearly all people "make sense" to me; but my husband is an extremely logical person, so seeing things through his eyes makes me realize that often, in practice, "people don't make sense."

[Harbinger]

Concerning the young man who was bullied on a daily basis...

Everyone with a son needs to teach him that sometimes you have to fight. If someone is bullying you, you gotta strike back as hard and swift as you can. Bullies will leave a child who won't take their shit alone and find a weak child who will. Even if the kid is bigger and you know you're gonna get beat up, you have to fight. The child might even get roughed up a couple of times, but the lesson they learn is invaluable and will make them a much stronger person who won't get walked over as an adult. The damage to a child's self esteem is too great if you don't teach them to stand up for themselves. I don't know about seven or eight, but a ten year old boy is old enough to know he's a coward.

My parents moved when I was about 14 and I had a new school and new scout troop. I remember my first camping trip where I got picked on a little bit by a bigger kid and I warned him a couple of times. Later that night, at the campfire, he wrapped aluminum foil on a stick and put it in the fire and then tried to touch my leg with it. I punched him in the face, and that was the end of the teasing. I guess he was the bitch after all, since he didn't come after me again. I would never have done something more than mutual joking around with some guys, but I knew I was being picked on and that if I didn't stick up for myself, I would have been labeled weak, and I would have never really been one of the guys. I ended up being their patrol leader and probably the most popular member of the troop.

So teach your children that it's not okay to hit or try to hurt people, but sometimes you have to stick up for yourself. By not teaching him to stand up to a bully, you're teaching him to be weak.

EDIT: A fat lip or a black eye will heal a lot faster than the esteem damage of being intimidated.