Lost Season 4-There Will Be Spoilers

[lurch]

Finn.. I know that is not what you are saying. What you are saying..leads you to ask questions ..as many " fans" have asked over the 4 seasons,,that are non sequitor. What you refer to as a Plot Hole,,to me is an Indicator,, a property of the Surreal Metaphor that the whole Widmore perspective represents or is. The Likes of Widmore are so brazen and powerful,, that they believe they can foist a hoax,, an Illusion,,on People,, that is so wrong...yet they don't even have to worry or care about it.. ( hhm ,,reminds me of a bit of Yellow Cake)Remember it was the TV that broke the story and apparently the viewers didn't question it,,except one drunk ex pilot,,Frank The Peckerhead...who apparently turned out to be an okay guy afterall. Plot Hole?,,No,, A commentary on the nature of a gullable public or its brain dead acceptance of everything fed to them by the media..Yes..

Everything,, EVERYTHING of Lost is an Exaggeration..Everything is exaggerated to the point of forcing me to look at the metaphor of it,, rather than try to squeeze Logic and reason out of it. Jack is the Man of Science.. The Logic..Is he not continuously thwarted by his own adamant hold on Logic?..his adamant reliance on Logic to answer everything that comes to him? Is that not what Julie finally breaks him of? Jack ...after a whole episode of flashback demanding " Who Is He?.. Just Tell Me His Name?" as his hold on his marriage slips away,,finally sees the lite with Julie taking him thru the steps..Jack turns the corner and asks at end of episode..(in reference to Sarah).." is.. is she alright?"..from the cold needs of logic ( just tell me his name)..to Caring for another person..( is.. is she alrite?)..If he had only done that when married. Thats just one example of the Metaphor of Jack's story,, being aimed at the Viewer suggesting to stop with the Logic.

[finn]

At the risk of boring others on the thread, I will maintain my stand and perspective, Lurch you'd never respect me in the morning if I did not!

Whilst I see the surrealistic and indeed superrealist perspective with the Island, its dreamlike qualities and malleable rules, I feel that the "real" world has to maintain its own rules, much as we've discussed on TC threads about the integrity of magic within the universe it exists in. For example White Gold has certain properties, these are its rules; it would be poor form to use it to conjure a Cheeseburger out of thin air or an AK47 to see off some UrViles; similarly we see no smoke monsters down Hollywood Boulevard.

I agree Widmore and Ben (assuming for a moment that Ben reports to no-one else) has the knowledge to step between worlds but even so, by and large must retain the integrity of each world when in it: the crossover points are precise and not without peril. Also there are aspects of the supernatural that stick to the characters who have been on the Island, things that are not readily explainable in the "Real" world. But they are not readily explainable because they are outside the rules of that world.

I am suprised that you are reluctant to accept the two states of being as each serves to highlight the other.

Are the writers that good Lurch? I'm inclined to think that the credit you give them might alert the Nobel Foundation is proven. For me yes I see the allegory and indeed the satire in the misdirection of the public, but in the beginning Yellow cake was at least plausible as were WMDs, I really have to insist that the plane wreck off Indonesia is not plausible and short of hypnosis or drugs I cannot accept that this was allegorical.....it was a deliberate hook for a later plotline or a geographical mistake. Now having seen average Americans believe that Australia was South Korea, Iraq, Iran and of course the home of the Vienna Boys Choir I struggle to deny that geography might not indeed be missing on the resumes of the Lost writers.

[lurch]

Well then Finn..you have to live with the consequences. Like many other fans, you will have questions and observations that never get answered or made sense of. A show that starts off with a bunch of people surviving a plane coming apart at 10,000 ft says to me that there are no rules. Any thing is possible. The unexpected IS the expected. And sure enuf, season 4 ends with the Island disappearing right in front of the Losties eyes. The fantastic continues.

On another note , I played the off season Dharma Initiative Recruitment for laffs and it appears I wasn't far off the mark. Copied and pasted for all , here is an email I got very recently :

Namaste.

I am pleased to announce that registered recruits can now log in and download your personalized Volunteer Assessment Dossier outlining your full test results as well as your position within the Dharma Initiative.

I want to personally congratulate you on behalf of everyone at the Dharma Initiative for your hard work and diligence during our testing process.

We hope that you are happy with your results. We certainly are. The tests were extremely challenging and the aptitude and excellence displayed far exceeded our expectations.

Now that you are in possession of your results I am sure you are asking the obvious question: what's next?

Our plan was that together we would commence a glorious adventure: the revival of the Dharma Initiative using the myriad talents of all our amazing new recruits. We imagined not just fulfilling long abandoned goals but taking the Dharma Initiative to a new level of greatness as an organization promoting the peaceful social and technological advancement of all humankind.

Then the financial crisis struck.

Sadly, our benefactors were not immune to this crisis. In fact, unconfirmed reports suggest that much of the money designated for the work of the new Dharma Initiative was tied up in highly leveraged mortgage derivatives. This, however, cannot be confirmed because, I am sorry to report, the principals representing the benefactors - my employers - have gone missing. Based on bills still coming into our office we believe they are somewhere in South America.

This stunning reversal of fortune has forced us to abandon our ambitious plans. In fact, absent this funding, the Dharma Initiative was forced to make the only sensible decision we had available: we sold the Dharma Initiative to the television show LOST.

While this might strike some of you as a shock, the reason for this was not simply that they were the only bidder. As the only remaining Dharma Initiative employee who had not fled the country, I felt that at the very least the show would be able to keep the spirit of the Dharma Initiative alive and in the public consciousness until such time as a reversal of the reversal of our economic fortunes occurs.

It is with a heavy heart that I must bid you farewell. Despite my fervent commitment to the mission of the Dharma Initiative, the realities of a broken marriage, heavy casino debt and some unfounded police charges have required that I change my present circumstances. It is with great excitement that I can inform you of my pending senior sales management job at a large multi-brand auto dealership in Dubai. I have enjoyed our brief association more than I can ever express, and if you are ever in the Middle East and need a car, please e-mail me for a special "Dharma rate".

In the meantime, you will hear shortly from LOST showrunners Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse. They will explain to you their future plans for the Dharma Initiative and how these plans might affect you.

Thank you again, personally, for your unflagging commitment and support. I hope our paths will one day cross again. In the meantime may the spirit of the island guide you.

Namaste.

Hans Van Eeghen
Head of Recruiting
The Dharma Initiative


THIS IS AN OFFICIAL COMMUNICATION OF THE DHARMA INITIATIVE:
This message and its attachments are confidential and may contain information which is protected by copyright. It is intended solely for the named addressee. If you are not the authorized recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the authorized recipient), you must not use, disclose, print, copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete this message and its attachments from your system. Any content of this message and its attachments that does not relate to the official business of the Dharma Initiative or its subsidiaries must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by any of them. No representation is made that this email or its attachments are without defect or that the contents express views other than those of the sender.

[danlo]

The next season better come on soon or I'll forget all about this show...

[Cagliostro]

Lurch, I love the email. That is fantastic.

I'm going to have to pick up the season 4 dvd just to remind myself of what happened last season. But I'd be doing that anyway.

[Zarathustra]

So, did anyone pick up the Blu-ray (or that ancient technology, DVD)? It's a thing of beauty. This is my favorite season. Since they have announced an end date, the storyline has tightened up considerably. I thought every single episode hit it out of the park. I wonder how much better season three would have been if they'd had fewer episodes? At first, during the writer's strike, I felt cheated that I didn't get a "full" season. But I'd rather have a fewer episodes than a meandering, uncertain plot. This show is amazing.

The Blu-ray is fantastic. The DVDs are some of the best looking DVDs in my small collection. I honestly didn't know how they could look better. That's until I saw this one! From the jungle scenes to the close-ups, the detail and color is stunning.

The extras are almost overwhelming in number. There's a really good one that is a fake documentary about the implausibility of the Oceanic Six story. It's a conspiracy theory about how their story doesn't check out. It looks like season five will expand on these suspicions, causing trouble for the Six.

I haven't found any Easter Eggs, but I never spend much time looking.

[Edit: does anyone know if this is shot on video or film? I'm getting a little bit of judder, and don't know which frame rate to watch this in. It looks like film to me, but I'm no expert.]

[Cagliostro]

I didn't get the blu-ray, but the normal DVD version. This season was a little frustrating for me as I felt the pace was too increased, and didn't have enough moments like the one where Hurley shares his candy bar with Ben. I missed those moments.

Finding the ton of easter eggs is pretty easy. If you press the remote and it doesn't move, press it again and if the thing moves into a direction you don't expect, hit enter and more than likely it will be an easter egg. Occasionally, you will have to do a bit more experimentation, such as it doesn't move when you hit the right arrow, but you hit it again and it goes to the next selection but not an easter egg. Well, you then go back, hit right (it doesn't move), and you hit another direction and it doesn't move, and then hit another direction and it goes somewhere else on the screen. There are a few of the nasty ones, so if it doesn't move, you know you are entering the correct "combination." Once it does move, it will either move to the next option like it normally would (which means you got something wrong), or it will move to a different spot on the screen, which means you got it right and have to press enter. I find it fun hunting them down, and they can sometimes be in places where you wouldn't expect.

[lurch]

The writers strike f*cked up everything, but alas, for me, Lost came out of it pretty good. Some excellent visual metaphors from season 4 are forever burned into my memory. That whole scene in Widmores bed chamber,,is right up there with the red sox winning the world series scene in season 3. The surrealness in texture and context is some of the best commercial TV ever.

Holmsoever,,,since i tape every episode ( talk about antiques) i have not bought a dvd set of each season since i bought season 1. There is no " collectable" value any more.

But,, since i had been an offical Dharma Recruit,,i do get a 48 hour head start on any and all interviews, trailers, etc etc , ahead of the general public...Basically, i get to see Damon and Carlton goof off for 10 minutes before anybody else does.

[danlo]

I love Locke, Hurley and Charlie...but I sometimes picture Locke as a younger Starfleet officer for some reason...

[lurch]

..uumm..i think that was one of many jobs he had off Island.

[Zarathustra]

Why did Locke's high school teacher tell him that he's "supposed to be" a scientist? That's strange. Locke must have had a natural aptitude, or the teacher wouldn't have told him this. So our resident Man of Faith could have been gone the other way and been a Man of Reason?

What object was little Locke supposed to claim as his own, instead of the knife? Why are people in Locke's life constantly telling him he's on the wrong path?

What miracle happened to the mysterious off-island black dude? He's obviously working for Widmore, since he assembled the extraction team. But he also had contact with Locke long before 815 ever crashed. Hell, he's even responsible for Locke wanting to go on a walkabout! Unless he can tell the future, that's a puzzle. But, with this show, a character who can tell the future wouldn't be much of a stretch.

Was Claire dead as soon as her house was blown up? I thought at the time that she survived too easily. But what if she didn't survive at all? What if Sawyer pulled her ghost out of the wreckage? (Where was her baby?) One of the deleted scenes even seems to suggest this, when Claire asks Hurly shortly afterwards, "Are we dead?"

How does Locke get off the island?

Can Ben not kill Widmore for the same reason Michael couldn't kill himself? The island won't let him? Why wouldn't the island let Michael die? At first, I thought it was because he had left his "proper" time by escaping the island too early. But if that's the case, doesn't it mean that he was *supposed* to die on the freighter? How would that have happened originally?

So C.S.Lewis was born on the island. Interesting.

Pausing during The Contant, you can see in Faraday's notebook a reference to "imaginary space." Is the island like a virtual reality? Or is this a place where dreams and fantasy can step out into reality?

Why does communication with the freighter happen instantaneously, but objects take longer than they should (like the rocket), or even appear before they should (washed up dead doctor)?? The fluctuating time certainly isn't linear or constant. Sometimes time is flowing slower on the island, sometimes faster (relative to the outside).

The finale was mind-blowing. Now that's how you end a season! The first time I saw it, I kept wondering how they are going to get the Oceanic Six together by the end, since they were all in separate places, and time was running out. Knowing how something must end, but not how it gets there, is a source of narrative tension that the writers work to full advantage. Simply brilliant.

[lurch]

Malik...my goodness you are man of questions. I can only suggest,, the Island is as Ben put it,,The Magic box..where anything is possible; The Imagination..more importantly, The Surreal Imagination..an imagination Free , unencumbered of all one is taught and prejudiced by...free...A lush jungle indeed.

The Surreal achievement or formula, requires polar opposites to interface and become a solidified new reality...hence.. Ben and Wid can't kill each other. One dies, the other becomes worthless. Interesting it is,,with Locke " dead"..Jack is already worthless. See what happens when Locke makes it back to the Island.

I draw the same conclusion from Linden's time tripping in FR as I do in season 4 Lost... When in Conflict, you can change places or place the changes ...Just as I feel those who change places in FR ( the Haruchai and The Harrow) basically lose.. so have the Oceanic 6 of Lost, who changed places,,rather than stay on the Island and Changed Time ( the Island disappeared because it changed Time,,much like Mahdoubt and Theomach and that surreal rascal, Esmer can travel thru Time.) Placing the changes is Time oriented because to do so requires expenditure of Time. Changes are kept over Time...or...change is a constant.

Michael was the artist looking for his childhood innocent that kept eluding him. When he finally realized he would never get Walt back..he became suicidal and wasn't allowed to fulfill his wish until he could do it for the benefit of the rest of the Losties. This " Island" not allowing Mike to die,,really is a strong signal that these individual Losties,,are individual parts of a Whole.

My analogy is thus: The crash of 815 is actually a nervous breakdown or a " coming apart" of an Individual..a flite from Sydney to La La Land..The Losties are like the splintered pieces of glass of a broken mirror of this individual. Each episode is a parable , a bit of Truth of the Individual,, that are building up to make a new Whole Person. The search for personal identity ,,Who Am I?..includes Who Am I Not..thus the deaths of certain characters. Dharma and Widmore Corporate are exterior forces that corrupt or encumber this reassembly of the Individual.

Anyway...no matter how you perceive this show ( I see Lost as ALL ,100%, metaphor,,in keeping with the Surreal tradition) one has to ask about and contemplate..Smokey. For me,, Smokey Monster is the Conscious. Ben the deceiver having some kind of control of it makes all the sense in the world to me. When Smokey is Tamed or brought to heel,,then you will know Lost is near its end.

ps..Locke is always got it wrong because he is always looking outside of himself for his reason to be..for his personal identity..Man of Faith. He needs to look inward,,for his Truth.. so he is like handicapping himself by always looking to other people ,,and that is why he is always so easily taken advantage of..because he places faith in everybody and thing rather than in himself.

[Zarathustra]

193 is a good page, isn't it?

[lurch]

193 is a good page, isn't it?

..as pages go, its at the heart of things as Kates scenes in and around the Bear cages are.

[Zarathustra]

I agree that the bear cages scenes were very important. Never has love triangle been put to such devious use! Freewill, love, sacrifice, manipulation . . . if it were any better, it would have been Donaldson.

An interesting aside--my brother thinks that the reason for the polar bears was to turn The Wheel, the one that moves the island. First of all, it was cold down there. Secondly, it took a lot of strength. Thirdly, being transported off the island isn't always desirable . . . so let a poor hapless animal do it. And finally, there was a polar bear in the desert, very similar to where Ben ended up after turning the wheel.

And that's why they were training the bears in the cages to do things like hitting buttons and stepping on pedals.

[lurch]

...Da Beeears....anyway,,,there are holes in that theory, but at least your brother is being creative. Seems to me da bears while definitely there for experimentation purposes,,ended up in the Tunsian desert the same way Ben did..got transported in the chamber thing. This is the Sci- Fi view that Damon and Carlton said they would bait us with in season 5,,then utterly destroy the theories in season 6.

Evie Lilly climbing out of the bear cage still is in my memory. A TV actress doin her own stunts like that..just great. Thats the problem with this show..If I let it in to my brain..its so good that it takes over..Like an addiction ,,just talkin about it here wants me to go watch the tapes I have.. Heck, a few days ago I even watched the sneak previews for the season 5 opener..SHIT ! SHIT ! SHIT!!! A MONTH TO GO!!!...and i've been so good handling it for so long,,,giiik!

[Menolly]

For anyone interested, apparently ABC.com has four seasons of Lost episodes online to stream for free.

Free Episodes

An episode from season 4 pops up, but if you click on the "Seasons" link at the top, it looks like it takes you to a list for all four seasons...

HTH

[Worm of Despite]

Wow, wow, wow! What a show! I must say I got Season 4 for Christmas and watched through it in 2 days. Definitely the tightest, best-written season and with the best episode of TV I've ever seen ("The Constant").

Now, time to comb through this thread and see the excellent insights.

Locke is one of my favorites, as is Desmond and Charlie. Any of their best episodes are highlights for me (Locke's first centric episode, where you learn he's in a wheel chair, clued me in to how stellar this show's writing would be).

[lurch]

Terry O'quin is excellent. He has complained about not knowing what LOST is about. Yes the Producer/ writers have kept it a secret from even the cast. But it seems to me..terry's Locke character shows that bit of cluelessness and it works great. The slite off balance,,not quite sure whats going on ,,is there in all the actor's portrayals,,but it work best in Locke. Michael Emerson's Ben Linus is a great contrast to Terry's Locke. Scenes with those two in it are really fun.

BTW.. there will be two new characters in season 5. Crap! I already deleted the email with their names..As I recall,, they are North European type names..danish or maybe swedish..Anyway something to look forward to.

as predicted,,the trailers are definetly showing the Oceanic 6 rethinking their " changing places" choice.

[Worm of Despite]

as predicted,,the trailers are definetly showing the Oceanic 6 rethinking their " changing places" choice.

Well I would to! If you're on the Lost island, you're probably going to die given a long enough time period. And if things go good for you, you will most likely get axed (such as falling in love).

I would stay away, but these people seem so bound to it by the 4th season that, as TC would say, "it's just too easy" to leave it. Their previous lives were all in shambles, and really they are dead in one sense, and the only absolution I see for them is devoting themselves to getting out of their place--this low spot, this island. But you can't just "leave" it. Every problem on the island must be resolved, I think, for them to get final absolution or rest.

As an aside, I wonder how much Ben's Linus's actor is told, compared to John Locke.

Further aside: "Walkabout" is definitely my favorite Lost episode, or perhaps tied with "The Constant". "The Moth", Charlie's first centric episode, also had me going.

Also also also: I have a huge crush on Juliet Burke and want her to be my Foulwife...