The Black Covenant Fan Challenge

[iQuestor]

... but why do demographics have to come into it at all?

I understand LF's question, just out of curiosity, he wonders if AA's / Blacks have read and enjoy TC. Fair question. The answer is likely, very few.

Fantasy is very predominantly enjoyed by white people, european and american. It is not a genre generally enjoyed by blacks. Perhaps, as our cultures continue to merge, they will find it and enjoy it. I do think more Asians and Indians enjoy it because they are closer (for whatever reason) to European and American society.

But then, typically, the discussion turns to race. And racism. and PC. We (society) can't simply conclude they don't like it because there are few or no elements in Fantasy they can sympathise with, and leave it to that. We have to ask why, and then assign blame. SOmeone has to point out that LOTR did not represent the African races, and then further point out that the evil races are darker, and bring up that this is typical racism. And then look knowingly and sternly at the white races for their past transgressions, and endevour to correct this obvious inequality by taking steps to ensure or hope that one day, AA's will also enjoy the priviledge of a once whites-only institution.

OMG! AA's dont like Fantasy! so what? why care? In the grand spirit of brotherhood, of diversity, of unity, do they have to? I ask, is it really a mark of success or social progress if more blacks begin reading TC or LOTR? Because of our past transgressions (yes, we Americans absoutely treated them very badly in the past and I am ashamed of how my ancestors, not myself, treated them as well as Native Americans), and in the spirit of Equal Opportunity, Affirmitive Action, and Political Correctness, do we now have to bring them into the fold? Include them in this traditionally white club?

If they are interested, then they will read or watch it (perhaps introduced by a white or european friend) and find out if they like it, or not. But (IMHO), most likely, not. And why would they? Blacks are generally not portrayed in Fantasy. None of the elements of traditional black culture are present, so many (not all) would likely not be able to empathise, sympathise, or even be interested. IMHO, it has nothing at all to do with racism, it has to do with the roots of the genre. LOTR was basically a retelling of the history of Europe. Most fantasy is derived from Tolkein's prototypes ,which also dont include elements of black culture. . SRD chose his characters from those he understands and felt he could write. Neither of these men are racist. And I would strongly protest trying to add AA or black characters to the modernizations of these works out of a misguided sense of PC. They don't belong simply because they werent included in the Orignal Work because their culture wasn't part of the European history being retold, or at least on Tolkein chose to include.

I hate rap, although many white americans love it. Nor do I enjoy listening to tribal style music from africa. Nor Indian Movies made in BollyWood. I doubt I'd try eskimo food or participate in their traditions. I do not enjoy or understand the dances of the American Indians. I have no interest in origame, nor do I care to try it. Japanese art is too cutesy for me, and I do not care to contemplate The Mantis Sitting on A Lotus Petal. Haggis sucks and I'd cosider chopping off a limb before eating it. And I'd rather be beaten by the son of my worst enemy in front of my mother than attend a hoedown.

If there is an element of another culture I do not like, I will not pretend to do so in the spirit of PC. I would likely not offer my opinion unless asked. That doesn't mean I am putting it down or disrespecting them or their heritage, it just means I am my own person with my own likes and dislikes.

I respect each of these cultures, even if I do not care for some elements of them. I am in no way offended by them. I do not think that my attempts to enjoy these cultural offerings will promote racial or cultural unity, or advance world peace. Or make me a better person.

If there is an element of another culture or society I am interested in, then I'd be glad to try it and take part. I love German folklore and their food. I celebrate Cinco De Mayo. I would be interested in taking martial arts classes.

I am an american white guy. I like fantasy and SF, drinking scotch and beer, listening to old rock and roll, and watching science documentaries. I enjoy the occaisional cigar, and fishing. I like reading about UFOs and ET. If I want my horizons broadened beyond these tenants of my culture, I will endeavour to do so. And if I resist an attempt by well meaning guardians of PC to raise my awareness of other cultures and beliefs, that does not make me or anyone a racist or an elitist.


[note: the above rant is merelysocial commentary, and not directed at Watchers who are participating in this thread. That is to say, I am not referencing specific posts or Watchers in this thread by my comments; I am just commenting on what I percieve as American society's arrogance. ]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

... but why do demographics have to come into it at all?

<snip rant>
[note: the above rant is merelysocial commentary, and not directed at Watchers who are participating in this thread. That is to say, I am not referencing specific posts or Watchers in this thread by my comments; I am just commenting on what I percieve as American society's arrogance.]

When you comment on American society's perceived arrogance, are you speaking to the demographics of American society? Are you perhaps speaking to the white element of said demographics? But, as you said, why do demographics have to come into it at all?

[duchess of malfi]

Some authors who have important characters of color in their work (not just "tokens"):

Ursula K. LeGuin (and not just Earthsea where whites are a minority group - she also has Asian and other racial groups respresented in her science fiction)
Tobias Buckell - really good young science fiction writer who has important Afro-Carribean characters in his books - if you have not read him yet what on Earth are you waiting for???
Steven Erikson - has characters of all racial groups and descriptions in his Malazan Book of the Fallen, including black
Arthur C. Clarke sometimes discussed racial issues in his books, and his last book featured an Asian hero.
Orson Scott Card has a fantasy book with an all African American cast, and also has an important black character in his Alvin Maker series.

A lot of urban fantasy has characters of a variety of races and colors.

I think that the lack of people of color in so much fantasy and science fiction goes back to the roots in the pulp magazines, etc which were often white male centric. Those stories also all too often lacked strong female and transgendered characters. We are finally getting strong gay and female characters as more women and gay friendly and openly gay writers are getting published. The same thing seems to be happening now with the inclusion of minority characters as the racial barriers in western society seems to be breaking down.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I think that the lack of people of color in so much fantasy and science fiction goes back to the roots in the pulp magazines, etc which were often white male centric. Those stories also all too often lacked strong female and transgendered characters. We are finally getting strong gay and female characters as more women and gay friendly and openly gay writers are getting published. The same thing seems to be happening now with the inclusion of minority characters as the racial barriers in western society seems to be breaking down.

Faced with reality, this conversation soon becomes a question of bottom-line. Will anybody buy these books featuring transgendered characters? What if LA were a transgendered female?

Unfortunately, you will keep stubbing your toe on the capitalist publishers and retailers who need to stay in business, and who, unlike 200 or more years ago, do not have friends in royalty to pay their way through life. That darn capitalism just keeps getting in the way of - progress?

[Vraith]

Faced with reality, this conversation soon becomes a question of bottom-line. Will anybody buy these books featuring transgendered characters? What if LA were a transgendered female?

Unfortunately, you will keep stubbing your toe on the capitalist publishers and retailers who need to stay in business, and who, unlike 200 or more years ago, do not have friends in royalty to pay their way through life. That darn capitalism just keeps getting in the way of - progress?

There's an even bigger problem: will anybody buy books period? I mean, after all, you can make a lot of money with films that are trans-gendered (heck, trans-, pre- post- anything) even though they're small niches. (and I don't mean xxx film, either).

[wayfriend]

If the character is well written and speaks to the human condition, it doesn't matter what he/she/it is.

Unless you look to get out of a book about the same thing you look to get out of a video game.

[iQuestor]

... but why do demographics have to come into it at all?

<snip rant>
[note: the above rant is merelysocial commentary, and not directed at Watchers who are participating in this thread. That is to say, I am not referencing specific posts or Watchers in this thread by my comments; I am just commenting on what I percieve as American society's arrogance.]

When you comment on American society's perceived arrogance, are you speaking to the demographics of American society? Are you perhaps speaking to the white element of said demographics? But, as you said, why do demographics have to come into it at all?

I am speaking to the seeming need for mainstream white american society to make everything PC and try to please everyone all the time; to act as if everyone should not tolerate, but actively embrace other cultures.

My point is that I don't have to like or enjoy aspects of other cultures, nor even like the members of those cultures. They also don't have to like or accept my customs, beliefs, or even me. We both should, as members of society, tolerate each others beliefs and customs, recognize equality, and reject bias and racism, and treat each other as equals. I beleive in these things. But I still dont like rap. and I never will.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I didn't know that being PC was the mainstream. It depends on where you are in America. All I'm saying is that your post depends on demographics while railing against the very need to rely on demographics.

This is becoming a discussion for Hile Troy's Think-tank.

[iQuestor]

I didn't know that being PC was the mainstream. It depends on where you are in America. All I'm saying is that your post depends on demographics while railing against the very need to rely on demographics.

This is becoming a discussion for Hile Troy's Think-tank.

agreed. sorry to derail. I may make a post the the Tank.

[danlo]

I think one interesting way to get some answers would be to look at this demographic : D & D players and fantasy gamers (WoW among them). It seems natural, to me, that these people represent a pretty good microcosimn of Fantasy fans. I doubt, thou, that the precentage would be any higher than what's already been discussed.

There are, obviously, many elements in classic fantasy that many AAs wouldn't necessarily identify with such as the Euro-based castles, wars, royalty, dragons, ogres, fairy folklore and there are a good amount of references to slavery (of all types of people, or races). Yes most of these references are parallel to many parts of African history-but African folklore is, probably, viewed by most AAs in an entirely different way...

[Menolly]

Could folk-tales be viewed as fantasy? And used as a way to appeal to African-Americans? I think Anansi has elements of fantasy to his tales...yes?

[duchess of malfi]

Could folk-tales be viewed as fantasy? And used as a way to appeal to African-Americans? I think Anansi has elements of fantasy to his tales...yes?

yes, absolutely, and that particular character was used by Neil Gaiman in American Gods and Anansi Boys.

[danlo]

My dear, folk-tales and "the telephone game" created Fantasy.

[Rocksister]

That could be construed as a controversial question, but I assume you're joking.

no, he wasn't joking. he was calling her on such stereotypical thinking. it may just be naievete and not intended as "racial profiling" but it was certainly, as far as this white girl from kentucky, transplanted to the Bay Area is concerned, the type of thinking that perpetuates the AA stereotype remeniscent of eugenic thinking.

What am I missing here? Who is "her?" The question was, I dare you to find a non-white fantasy fan, and also, why aren't there any? If you and the Worm are referring to the answer that I gave, I don't see anything wrong with it, I was only offering my thoughts on the questions in their original form. If you want to talk about stereotypical and racial profiling, recall that the original question referred to ho-slapping and bass music. I'm Caucasian and even I found that offensive.

[Seven Words]

R Scott Bakker's Second Apocalypse series is interesting. The lighter skinned races have LOST their culture (in the First Apocalypse), and are derided by the Three Seas cultures (which are darker skinned).

Just an interesting aside.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Fantasy is usually an amalgam of Nordic, Celtic, European historical concepts, peoples, themes, etc. I think this is the biggest issue when it comes to this topic.

[MsMary]

Orson Scott Card has a fantasy book with an all African American cast

Which book is that? I can't think of one.

[Vraith]

Fantasy is usually an amalgam of Nordic, Celtic, European historical concepts, peoples, themes, etc. I think this is the biggest issue when it comes to this topic.

Duuude! Not fair! pretty much what I said in an earlier post. How am I going to disagree with you if we agree?
[grumbles about finding that other thread]

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Fantasy is usually an amalgam of Nordic, Celtic, European historical concepts, peoples, themes, etc. I think this is the biggest issue when it comes to this topic.

Duuude! Not fair! pretty much what I said in an earlier post. How am I going to disagree with you if we agree?
[grumbles about finding that other thread]

Post...or thread? Let me tell you, I've spent hours reading threads here that I didn't jump into, a lot from '03. But my specific memory for posts is not that good. (grumble, grumble)

[Vraith]

Fantasy is usually an amalgam of Nordic, Celtic, European historical concepts, peoples, themes, etc. I think this is the biggest issue when it comes to this topic.

Duuude! Not fair! pretty much what I said in an earlier post. How am I going to disagree with you if we agree?
[grumbles about finding that other thread]

Post...or thread? Let me tell you, I've spent hours reading threads here that I didn't jump into, a lot from '03. But my specific memory for posts is not that good. (grumble, grumble)

Umm...actually, my poor joke about grumbling was finding the thread where I was disagreeing with you.