Dune and Star Wars: Scifi or Fantasy?

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I've always viewed Star Wars and Dune as Fantasy written within a Scifi setting or universe, as what happens at it's core is about magical powers, nobility and other Fantasy staples...though I think SW blends both far better, while Dune seems to be nearly, purely a Fantasy with Scifi "explinations/uses" like the use of the spice...

Your thoughts and maybe other stories that might seem the same?

[deer of the dawn]

In my experience very little of Sci-Fi is purely that, without Fantastic elements.

[Zarathustra]

Both.

It's not just a s.f. setting, which they use to place a story. These stories are also about s.f. themes. The death star is more than just a technological place to have a battle. It's an opponent which is measured against one man's faith/skill/intuition. Technology vs magic.

It's been a few decades since I read Dune. But I think "both" applies to it, too. The fantasy elements derive from a spice, a physical/material/economic commodity. While this spice has "spiritual" effects and overtones, it is used in a way to solve technological problems (folding space, for instance), rather than merely "spiritual" ones.

You don't see Thomas Covenant using white gold to enable space travel or destroy battle stations. That's not what magic is for in fantasy. If anything, these two stories lean more to s.f. than fantasy. You could just as easily say that they place fantasy gimmicks in a s.f. story ("magic"), instead of saying that they are fantasy stories told in a s.f. setting.

[Auleliel]

I've always viewed science fiction and fantasy as being part of the same genre (which I creatively call fantasy/sci-fi), with different works having a greater or lesser emphasis in the "science" or the "fantasy" aspects of the genre. If you organized all of the science fiction and fantasy works ever created in a Venn diagram, I think a fair number of them would fall under both fantasy and science fiction, with other works falling more definitely in one or the other.
I think both Dune and Star Wars contain fairly balanced amounts of the elements of both realms of the genre.

[Vraith]

Dune obviously has fantastic elements, but as I posted elsewhere, it also has an extraordinary amount of rigorous hard science in several areas.
There is nothing at all scientific about Star Wars, just certain aspects of scienti--ness.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Orson Scott Card calls the combined genre, Speculative Fiction...which I think is acurate, but man is it annoying to speak, or even type...

How bout, Fanta-Sci?

[Auleliel]

Orson Scott Card calls the combined genre, Speculative Fiction...which I think is acurate, but man is it annoying to speak, or even type...

How bout, Fanta-Sci?

Works for me.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I think SW was written initially with a magical orb they were all seeking or something...

[Avatar]

Dune obviously has fantastic elements, but as I posted elsewhere, it also has an extraordinary amount of rigorous hard science in several areas.

I don't think I'd call Dune hard science at all. In fact, Herbert takes pains to not give any science behind how things work in it.

--A

[Vraith]

Dune obviously has fantastic elements, but as I posted elsewhere, it also has an extraordinary amount of rigorous hard science in several areas.

I don't think I'd call Dune hard science at all. In fact, Herbert takes pains to not give any science behind how things work in it.

--A

Not to explain the mystical, yes, but: The desert ecology is built from tons of research on actual deserts and desert peoples. The various peoples and histories are built on actual sociology and both physical and cultural anthropology. The prana-bindu practices of the Bene-Gesserit are built on actual mental and physical disciplines and understandings of the human mind/body. The memories of ancestors built on [admittedly speculative] possibilities of genetic science as it existed at the time. This doesn't make it "hard sf" but it is much much closer than SW.

[Avatar]

The ecology certainly, and even the mysticism, but I was talking about the actual "trappings" of sci-fi...the technological gadgets. He doesn't explain a single one.

--A

[Vraith]

The ecology certainly, and even the mysticism, but I was talking about the actual "trappings" of sci-fi...the technological gadgets. He doesn't explain a single one.

--A

oh...um...y'know, I completely missed that as the point
but I remember reading somewhere long ago that the gadget explanations were left out on purpose to avoid bad science glitches and explanations taking away from the story/interrupting the narrative. Unfortunately I don't recall if it was Herbert being quoted, or someone elses speculations. You're right though...doesn't explain hunter/seeker drones really, or why lasers and shields cause each other to blow up catastrophically (not that I recall anyway)

[matrixman]

I agree, too. Herbert was very clever that way.

I think SW was written initially with a magical orb they were all seeking or something...

The object was called the Kiber Crystal. If I have my SW folklore correct, the Crystal was supposed to be the thing that actually gave the Jedi their Force powers. There were at least three of the crystals, I think. The initial story might have involved the Jedi trying to recover a crystal stolen by the Sith.

[Vader]

I cannot find the exact quote, but Asimov once claimed that SF was not just a genre of literature, but it rather ran diametrical through all genres.

He said, take a normal SF story and add a detective and you have a SF crime story. Add a loving couple and you got a SF romance. Add some magical powers and you get SF fantasy and so on. I gues sthis would be the case with Dune and Star Wars, according to Asimov.

Once I find the quote (it pays to bring some order into your library once you exceed the 1,000 books limit and I passed it right after the Year of The Great Wind) I'll post it. It was in the foreword to some SF anthology as I remember.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I cannot find the exact quote, but Asimov once claimed that SF was not just a genre of literature, but it rather ran diametrical through all genres.

He said, take a normal SF story and add a detective and you have a SF crime story. Add a loving couple and you got a SF romance. Add some magical powers and you get SF fantasy and so on. I gues sthis would be the case with Dune and Star Wars, according to Asimov.

Once I find the quote (it pays to bring some order into your library once you exceed the 1,000 books limit and I passed it right after the Year of The Great Wind) I'll post it. It was in the foreword to some SF anthology as I remember.

Back when most of Asimov's stories were written, I'd have to disagree with him...I get his point, but the writing back then, in an artistic sense, was relatively poor, focusing on the scifi elements...

...but nowadays you have some excellent writers with excellent ideas in excellent stories...excellent...

[Vraith]

I cannot find the exact quote, but Asimov once claimed that SF was not just a genre of literature, but it rather ran diametrical through all genres.

He said, take a normal SF story and add a detective and you have a SF crime story. Add a loving couple and you got a SF romance. Add some magical powers and you get SF fantasy and so on. I gues sthis would be the case with Dune and Star Wars, according to Asimov.

Once I find the quote (it pays to bring some order into your library once you exceed the 1,000 books limit and I passed it right after the Year of The Great Wind) I'll post it. It was in the foreword to some SF anthology as I remember.

Back when most of Asimov's stories were written, I'd have to disagree with him...I get his point, but the writing back then, in an artistic sense, was relatively poor, focusing on the scifi elements...

...but nowadays you have some excellent writers with excellent ideas in excellent stories...excellent...

If I recall correctly [and in this case I'm pretty sure I do] Asimov intentionally wrote his first robot novel to prove sf included [or could include] other genres within itself (in this particular case, a robot detective novel)

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I cannot find the exact quote, but Asimov once claimed that SF was not just a genre of literature, but it rather ran diametrical through all genres.

He said, take a normal SF story and add a detective and you have a SF crime story. Add a loving couple and you got a SF romance. Add some magical powers and you get SF fantasy and so on. I gues sthis would be the case with Dune and Star Wars, according to Asimov.

Once I find the quote (it pays to bring some order into your library once you exceed the 1,000 books limit and I passed it right after the Year of The Great Wind) I'll post it. It was in the foreword to some SF anthology as I remember.

Back when most of Asimov's stories were written, I'd have to disagree with him...I get his point, but the writing back then, in an artistic sense, was relatively poor, focusing on the scifi elements...

...but nowadays you have some excellent writers with excellent ideas in excellent stories...excellent...

If I recall correctly [and in this case I'm pretty sure I do] Asimov intentionally wrote his first robot novel to prove sf included [or could include] other genres within itself (in this particular case, a robot detective novel)

So if a fantasy novel has mystery elements, does that make it a Mystery novel; if it has suspense elements, does that make it a suspense novel; romance, etc.?

My point is that the story writing was pretty poor back then, meaning that the poorness+primary subject matter= derivative genre defenition...and the genre did slowly evolve into what Asimov discribes in the example...just mostly not in his heydey (maybe I just restated myself...oh well)

[Vraith]

My point is that the story writing was pretty poor back then, meaning that the poorness+primary subject matter= derivative genre defenition...and the genre did slowly evolve into what Asimov discribes in the example...just mostly not in his heydey (maybe I just restated myself...oh well)

In a way, I agree...but I agree in the same way I would if you said the first car was just a horse buggy without a horse...the 'engine' is ignored, and the engine of this sf was the point...it had to evolve. You simply cannot judge a model T on the basis of either a stagecoach or a 2009 Jaguar.
[well, as I often say, you can but if you do you're wrong] Artistry was generally lacking (in novels anyway...short stories are a different matter entirely) but you have to take into account that those who knew the science weren't really writers, and those who were writers didn't know the science. [that's incredibly generalized, don't anyone beat me over the head with it.]

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Nice analogy, man...