Ritual Of Desecration - What happened?

[Sunbaneglasses]

I really don't think that the exact forces that Kevin unleashed are as important as the idea that Earthpower can be wielded in both beneficial and harmful ways.

[KAY1]

Lord Tamarantha also told Covenant that because Kevin was a Seer he created his wards but because he was not a prophet he could not forsee the outcome of his actions either in the Ritual or in creating the Wards.

The Earth has no morals. It contains forces of growth and destruction, both are a part of the natural order of things. Kevin just tipped the balance and forced the Earth to do something massively destructive which probably had repercussions througout the whole world.

Someone also said that the Earthpower would not talk to people again, in the way it did with Berek. In that instance Berek spoke to the Earth and asked why it did not rise up and crush their mutual enemies. I can't remember the answer unfortunately but I imagine it was somewhere along the lines of 'well you don't do anything for me so why should I help you?' then the Earth promised to help Berek if he would in turn promise to dedicate himself to the healing of the Earth. He did so but Kevin broke that promise. To be honest I guess the people of the Land were lucky that the Earht didn't exact a terrible revenge and bury them all. Perhaps that is part of the reason things went a bit pear-shaped for the new Lords.

[Avatar]

It seems to me that, before the Descration, different kinds of lore were dispersed more thooughout the people. It was probably true that a particular person chose a certain specialty, but it probably wasn't true that villiages were divided along those lines.

That makes sense to me. So although there might not have been stonedownors, there still might have been graveling.

The Earth has no morals. It contains forces of growth and destruction, both are a part of the natural order of things.

I like that Kay. And totally agree.

--A

[KAY1]

It seems to me that, before the Descration, different kinds of lore were dispersed more thooughout the people. It was probably true that a particular person chose a certain specialty, but it probably wasn't true that villiages were divided along those lines.

That makes sense to me. So although there might not have been stonedownors, there still might have been graveling.

The Earth has no morals. It contains forces of growth and destruction, both are a part of the natural order of things.

I like that Kay. And totally agree.

--A

Why thank you

It seems that in the days of Kevin and even more so before even him, all the peoples and creatures of the Land traded openly and lived in harmony, even the Cavewights and the Demondim.

As you say the people of the Land probably had various 'specialists' in each village andused both wood and stone lore. When the Desecration happened and dependent on where they were, the villagers found that one or the other type of lore didn't appear to have much use (in the plains and mountains there werent a lot of trees but plenty of rock), they discarded the useless lore and focussed on that which helped them. I wonder if for example the Lillianrill who went towards the stone then tried to find other areas where the wood lore was needed or if they abandoned their lore and learned the stone lore.

I suppose we see some kind of examples on how the lores mixed with the Lords. After all being a stonedowner didn't exclude you from studying the staff and they didn't then suddenly forget about their love of stone and how to use gravelling (to which degree obviously depending on how much stonelore they had learned before) and this is probably why after the Ritual there were a lot fewer Lords. It is probably hard to think about using a wooden staff when all you know is the stone lore so you wouldn't seek out the knowledge and if you did, perhaps it would be more difficult to grasp. Saying that I seem to remember the unfettered who studied the rocks was a woodhelvenin.

[Rocksister]

While searching the forums to ensure that I would not post a topic already covered, I ran across this one and although it's an old one, I had to admit I had never considered this thought before. How DID everyone know what Kevin had gone through? And their recounts of the history of that time even detail his thoughts. So it does beg the question, how could anyone possibly know all this? Did he create a diary or journal of some kind? And if so, how could he possibly make entries about the RoD once it was done since he did not survive it? Hmmmm, really interesting post.

[Earthfriend]

Perhaps the Bloodguard passed on their knowledge of events when they handed over the First Ward; though they aren't known for being particularly forthcoming with information. No doubt the Giants, lovers of lore and tales, would have shared their knowledge with the new Lords.

But as to what Kevin himself was thinking/feeling at the time of the Ritual, I think that is left deliberately open to interpretation - both by different characters within the novel, and by the reader.

[Vader]

Reading LFB again I found an intertesting part. When TC and Foamfollower meet the first time and the giant says in chapter 11: The Unhomed

Waynhim and Andelainian Wraiths slain. Well, some of this does not surprise me - our old ones have often guessed that Soulcrusher would not die as easily as poor Kevin hoped. Stone and Sea! All that Desecration - ravage and rapine - for a false hope.

To me that looks that until people knew about Foul's return they could not know that Kevein had failed his intent. The wise have only guessed it.

If Foamfollowers surprise is true (and why should he know less than ordinary men) people cannot hvae known that Kevin discovered his failure in his last moments. That his hopes were false could only have been discovered by the people of the Land when they learn that Foul was not dead, when TC brings his message to the Lords.

It seems to me that, before the Descration, different kinds of lore were dispersed more thooughout the people. It was probably true that a particular person chose a certain specialty, but it probably wasn't true that villiages were divided along those lines.

That makes sense to me. So although there might not have been stonedownors, there still might have been graveling.

In LFB, chapter 6 Legend of Berek Halfhand, Atiaran says

We do not use wood because the wood-lore, the lilliandril is lost to us, and we have not sought to regain it. In the exile of our people, when Desolation was upon the Land, many precious things were lost. Our people clung to rhadhamaerl lore in the Southron Range and the Wastes, and it enabled us to endure. The wood-lore seemed not to help us and was forgotten Now that we have returned to the Land, the stone-lore suffices for us. But other have kept the lilliandril.

This clearly shows that before the Desecration people had both - wood- and stone-lore and were probably not divided into two separate branches.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

The thing that it seems everyone misses is that SRD is a guy who chooses his words carefully.
This wasn't the Ritual of Destruction. It was the Ritual of DESECRATION.
As quoted above -- " all that Desecration - ravage and rapine" for naught.
Kevin didn't just blow the land up. He RAPED it.
Whatever happened to it, and I know it involves some destruction, because of Covenant's vision, we'll probably never have a real idea.
Kevin took something from the Land as he did the ritual. He destroyed that which he loved most, but it was more than that. Trell used graveling to try to burn what he loved most, the stone.
Kevin turned the land against itself, I believe.

[Vader]

I understand what you're trying to say and it appears to be plausible. HOWEVER ... regarding the 2nd Chronicles ... whoever took away the health sense of the people, whoever made wood and stone lore vanish, whoever led to the decline of the New Lords, whoever came up with the Banfire ... whoever it was raped the Land harder then poor old Kevin. Whoever it was took away more from the people then the RoD.

Well, I know SRD didn't have the "full" story in mind when writimg the 1st Chronicles. However, calling Kevin "Landwaster" is too easy. That's not how it works.

And I say it again - until TC told the Lords that Fouls was still alive there was no reason to call Kevin "Landwaster".

[Earthfriend]

And I say it again - until TC told the Lords that Fouls was still alive there was no reason to call Kevin "Landwaster".

Well, it could be argued that Kevin would have still be known as 'Landwaster'. Even if the people of the Land believed that Despite had been ended by the Ritual, the Land was still laid waste by Kevin's actions.

[hpty603]

And they would at least have some idea that Kevin was behind it if they see that he leaves, and then most of the Land essentially dies. Who else but Lord Foul or Kevin would have that kind of power? And if they thought Foul did it, why wouldn't he have done it sooner? And they thought that Foul had been killed, so that's another reason they could conjecture that Kevin had a hand in such a sacrifice

[wayfriend]

Perhaps the answer lies in the First Ward:

• Dear future resident of the Land,
  
  If you are reading this, then I am dead.
  
  I'm heading off now to begin a Ritual of Descration. It's the only way I can think of to destroy the Gray Slayer. (Hopefully, I can taunt him into joining me - that would make the Ritual very puissant.)
  
  I've made a brain dump of all my lore so it would not be forgotten. This letter comes with the first bit. It'll explain how to get the rest.
  
  Gosh, I'm depressed. So I'm cutting this short.
  
  If the Land is laid to waste, well, that's my fault. Hopefully, you'll agree that it was worth it to finally defeat Foul.
  
  Affectionately,
  Lord Kevin

[Vader]

And I say it again - until TC told the Lords that Fouls was still alive there was no reason to call Kevin "Landwaster".

Well, it could be argued that Kevin would have still be known as 'Landwaster'. Even if the people of the Land believed that Despite had been ended by the Ritual, the Land was still laid waste by Kevin's actions.

I appreciate that "Landwaster" is not a name given to Kevin to accuse him, but rather given out of sympathy.

Still from the perspective of those who gave him that name did he really "waste" the Land? They must have really considered the possibility that Foul was destroyed. They also knew the Land was full of Earthpower and self-healing potential.

Now, somone who sacrifices something they love (Kevin sacrificing the Land) for some greater aim (the destruction of Foul) should not be called a "waster". They are in fact but the most humble and true servants of [their] faith ever. To me what Kevin did indeed was braver than what everyone else did.


Plus a big ROFLMAO for wayfriend.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I don't think we will ever uncover exactly what happened during the Ritual of Desecration, unless Kevin's ghost or Foul tells us. Even if they do, though, the exact details--what was said, which invocations were uttered, which Laws were bent/broken using the Staff, etc--are unimportant. Only the emotion leading to the Ritual are important--the fact that someone can love something so much that they are willing to destroy it and bet on the future hope of it coming back, since "the soul in which the flower grows remains".

It is also interesting to note that the enacters of the Ritual basically committed suicide; this is probably a necessary act to complete the Ritual and not merely a side-effect of it. Kevin probably knew he would die; Foul was betting on his fundamental nature--a being from outside the Arch of Time--to sustain him (he was right).

Kevin's act was a "waste" only because Foul survived. If Foul had indeed been permanently destroyed then everyone would be celebrating Kevin's sacrifice and his name wouldn't be "Landwaster".

The only characters in the Chronicles who acheive lasting victories are the ones who are willing to go "all in" and bet everything.

[Earthfriend]

With respect, I must disagree here with both Hashi and Vader.

What matters it to the Land whether it is desecrated by Foul or Kevin? It remains lessened either way. And certainly The Despiser would have found the desecration all the sweeter, coming as it did from Kevin. What greater victory for him, then to have the Lands greatest servant betray it in such a way?

Until Covenant returns with his message, it could be argued that most believed that Foul had been destroyed by the Ritual, but that in no way lessened their sadness at Kevin's actions. Hence the Oath of Peace, to prevent such self-despite from ever threatening the Land again.

And it is possible to go "all in" whilst still holding true to peace. Witness Foamfollower at Hotash Slay, Lord Mhoram in TPTP, and Covenant himself of course.

[wayfriend]

Agreed. Whether in success or in failure, the Land was laid to waste: hence, Landwaster. Not because Kevin threw the Land away, but because he destroyed it.

[Vader]

But what did those who called him Landwaster did to save the Land themselves? In a way they are all Landwasters if they not tried to stop Foul at any price themselves. It's always easy pointing fingers when it's all over ...

[SGuilfoyle1966]

But what did those who called him Landwaster did to save the Land themselves? In a way they are all Landwasters if they not tried to stop Foul at any price themselves. It's always easy pointing fingers when it's all over ...

I think they said there job was to preserve the land. Not protect it.
In other words, they would do their best for it, but they wouldn't go to an all-out war to protect it.
Mhoram realized in the end that they just had to their best for the Land. The Land might survive Foul, might not. But it wasn't up to him. them. They just had to do their best.

[Earthfriend]

But what did those who called him Landwaster did to save the Land themselves? In a way they are all Landwasters if they not tried to stop Foul at any price themselves. It's always easy pointing fingers when it's all over ...

I hear you. But I never got the feeling that Kevin was named 'Landwaster' as a term of blame or condemnation, more one of sorrow and grief that such a champion of the Land as Kevin could be pushed to such despearate straits.

[Vader]

Mhoram realized in the end that they just had to their best for the Land. The Land might survive Foul, might not. But it wasn't up to him. them. They just had to do their best.

But Mhoram also discovered that it was the Oath of Peace that kept the New Lords from making any significant progress. If Foul really is part of the Creator or at least older then creation (according to the legends) the possibilities that the Land might outlive him a very small. So just sit back and wait can't be an option. In my eyes Kevin did the right thing, though for a horrible price. Still it was absolutely inevitable.

I hear you. But I never got the feeling that Kevin was named 'Landwaster' as a term of blame or condemnation, more one of sorrow and grief that such a champion of the Land as Kevin could be pushed to such despearate straits.

I mentioned that before so it looks I contradicted myself.