R Scott Bakker's "The Judging Eye" Discussion

[Zarathustra]

I forgot how slow this series is at the beginning, how long it takes to really get going. As I read TJE, I marked exceptional passages with my pencil. It started getting ridiculous, because I was underlining passages and bracketing paragraphs on nearly every single page! And I've continued this practice with TDTCB. After the prologue, I'm finding MUCH fewer passages that "speak to me." This is what I meant about the latest book being much better. My impression may change as I get back to Kellhus. But right now, I realize just how much I was depending on your recommendation, Brinn!

However, I am enjoying it. I do have a few general thoughts I'll add here eventually.

[Brinn]

Hey, I've given you "Gates of Fire" and Bakker. I'd say I've earned a bit of latitude with my recommendations, No?!?!?!

I just finished TTT last night and have started in on the encyclopedic glossary. I enjoyed the series more upon a second read and this was especially true of The Thousandfold Thought. The ending made much more sense to me. Actually, I'm at a loss to explain why I was confused after the first read. It's not that difficult to follow the chain of events and understand the motivations behind them after a careful reread.

I'll agree that Bakker has honed his skills as he progressed. His writing gets better as the series progresses and TJE was the best prose yet. It is scary to think about him getting better still.

I have much more to discuss and I'll throw out an initial observation and a question to maybe get things started in here again (P.S. where the hell is Murrin and why is he reading so slowly?!!?!).

After reading TTT again I believe that Kelhuss is convinced that he is both a prophet and the harbinger. I also believe that the goal of his Great Ordeal is as he says it is - to destroy the Consult. He killed Moenghus because he realized that Moe's dunyain intellect would eventually lead him to the same conclusion as the Consult. That the Gods, who cannot be controlled, must be sealed on the outside. As is mentioned in the text, the Dunyain control what they can control and isolate what they cannot. I believe that the Consult will be looking to Akka as a replacement for Cnaiur as Akka now finds himself in opposition to Kelhuss. Also, if Kelhuss is a fraud, as Akka belives, than Akka is still damned. It's the old "enemy of my enemy" routine. I feel this point is reinforced by one of the very last scenes in TTT where Aurang speaks to a freckled boy on the beach near Shimeh and tells him a "secret". A chapter later, the boy and his mother (sister?) are nursing Akka back to health.

And lastly a question and some disjointed ruminations; Is the outside universal (in a cosmic sense) or is it localized only around Earwa? Asked differently; If the Inchoroi had not crashed into Earwa would they still have been damned? If not, why not? Does the presence of Men and their belief in sin damn the aliens or do the absolute judgments of those inhabiting the outside determine the nature of sin? If Men and their beliefs are the key than are men not coming before and influencing the outside? I remember a passage (which I'll try to look up and quote tonight) where Aurang, in the body of Esmi, converses with Kellhus. Aurang explains that the Inchoroi are a race of lovers and that they should not be damned by their nature if not for the presence of men. One of the beginning quotations prior to a chapter also notes that, and I paraphrase, "As long as there are men there will be crimes". Thinking about these aspects make me think that Bakker is really saying that there is no morality save for what men make it, even though TJE makes it appear as though Earwa has a defined morality imposed by the outside.

Did that make any sense???

I'll try to think about it and explain it better tonight.

[I'm Murrin]

I'm not sure that this idea of man's significance meshes with their journey from the east. When the Cuno-Inchoroi War occured men were unheard of, entirely unknown by the Nonmen and anyone else in the Three Seas. Men arrived much later, and their first contact with the Inchoroi was through the (mostly human and artificial-construct composed) Consult. If men were intended to hold such significance over the Inchoroi they would have played a larger role in their history.

(That we have such a large chunk of history - man in the east, before the Three Seas, back when the Chronicles of the Tusk were written - missing entirely also could be significant, of course.)

[Brinn]

I'm not wedded to the idea but then what of this notion that the inchoroi are damned. If the Outside contains the entire universe than the inchoroi were damned before they crashed into earwa. Were they just ignorant of their damnation? If they were damned before they crashed on Earwa than how can the notion of killing enough souls on Earwa seal the world from the outside? Will it just seal off the world of Earwa or will it seal off the entire universe? I'm trying to understand the mechanics here and I'm struggling.

[I'm Murrin]

That bit I don't know about.

From what I've read, it seems likely the actual killings during the First Apocalypse were spurred by the No-God itself rather than the Consult and Inchoroi (the Sranc were all commanded by its will when it awakened, for example). And the No-God's presence cut off the birth of new life. I'm not sure if the No-God's actions and purpose are one and the same. Remember that the carapace looks more like a prison than anything else, encrusted in Chorae.

[Brinn]

Bump for Malik and Murrin.

[Zarathustra]

Book 1 doesn't get truly interesting until we meet Cnaiur. That's an awesome character. i don't think Achamian was this interesting until TJE.

I've just finished the battle of Kiyuth. What an amazing chapter. Everything else up to this point (with the exception of the prologue and the Emporer chapter) feels bland and unoriginal. I remember now how absurd I thought it was for Achamian to start feeling dizzy in the crowd during Maithenet's first appearance, and then how they pick him up and deposit him right at Maithenet's feet, next to yet another one of Achamian's former pupils. How coincidental!

Seeing Esmenet's starting point, after knowing where she ends up, is really nice. The seeds were already there from the very beginning. And her daughter's role in her life was there from page 1 (well, not literally! I foret the page number). I don't know if Bakker did some "mining" like Donaldson did to produce the 2nd Chrons, of if this was planned all along, but it seems to arise naturally.

Flowers and water. Nice.

[I'm Murrin]

Holy hell. The real meat of the story comes along pretty suddenly, a big fat chapter near the end, the journey into Cil-Aujas. Until now I've been more concerned with the bigger picture than the here-and-now of the book, but with this part Bakker's started to engage me more immediately. So much going on in this chapter, the mystery of Cil-Aujas, the relationships in their group, Mimara's gift, Cleric's past... Lots of questions brought up to the surface, very few answered.

Bakker's writing is great, I'm trying to think who he is remeniscent of, but can't quite put my finger on it.

And of course there's the tribute to Tolkien, and the chapter ends on a note that recalls for me the same thrill of that moment in The Fellowship of the Ring where the drums begin to sound...

This is getting very good.

[Brinn]

CLERIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC!

[Brinn]

Malik,

In the interviews I've seen and heard, Scott indicates that the entire story has been banging around in his head since his high school and college years. I think he's got this bad boy all mapped out.

[I'm Murrin]

I'll tell you something that occured to me when I was reading that chapter, during the parts about how the non-men changed when they began to forget. What if the Cunuroi could do to theirselves what the Mandate do? What if they could take another person's memories and relive them night after night? It would be something to hold on to, something they cannot forget, and they might not be spurred to commit atrocities simply to create memories powerful enough to persist.
Seswatha started that using the Gnosis, and the Gnosis was taught to men by the non-men, so it must be within their power.

[Brinn]

I don't think Bakker is going to let the Nonmen off that easily! I think they are going to end up a doomed race.

[I'm Murrin]

So, quite a good book all in all. Clearly a setup book for the series, as not much really goes on in Sorweel and Kelmomas' storylines, and the Yatwer story has only just started, but Akka's journey had a very satisfying climax in this volume. I have a feeling that this will, in the end, read best as the beginning of a larger work, rather than a distinct volume in a series.

Thoughts -

Sorweel's final scenes, coming face to face with the Anasurimbor. Did Yatwer's blessing really allow him to lie to Kellhus' face and get away with it? Did Kellhus just ignore it as part of Sorweel's indoctrination (which they have, so far, worked on by giving him no reason not to love him)? Kellhus is no god, we know that from the Prince of Nothing, we know that because the sorcerors are still damned, we know that because the Hundred can oppose him.

This new volume brings the fantastic into the story in a way that the first trilogy did not - the gods are made undeniably real, the Outside exists, good and evil are absolute, and there is such a thing as Hell. Where previously we had a world with magic and what appeared simply a flawed earthly doctrine to describe the world, now we are shown almost irrefutably that much of what the Inrithi believe is true. And also shows us a reasonable amount of proof, through the Judging Eye and the actions of te Hundred, that Kellhus is not what he claims - perhaps even believes himself - to be.


Momemn - Kelmomas is growing into a true tyrant, someone that will show us the horror of an untrained Dunyain intellect let loose upon the minds of normal people. I wonder if he will, when he grows older, begin a sexual relationship with his mother, the better to keep his control over her.


Cil-Aujas - great scenes, great use of both action and horror. Well paced, well written, and with nice twists to keep us on the edge of our seats (I liked the bait-and-switch he pulled with the dragon). Sarl will be an interesting character in the next book, perhaps becoming even more dangerous now that his mind has completely broken. I found it a little amusing the way Cleric plays the roles in this group of Gollum, Gandalf and the Balrog all at once.


The first series was titled the Prince of Nothing, and at the end of it the Prince of Nothing became Aspect-Emperor. This one is named The Aspect-Emperor - when it is over, what do you think Kellhus will become?

[Zarathustra]

Sorweel's final scenes, coming face to face with the Anasurimbor. Did Yatwer's blessing really allow him to lie to Kellhus' face and get away with it?

I think so. And this is from a pure story-telling perspective (rather than evidence from the text). Kellhus must have something to balance his power or it becomes less interesting. Also, there is less tension in the story if Sorweel doesn't actually have a secret advantage. So, I vote "yes" just because it makes a better story, and I think Bakker is smart enough to recognize this.

This new volume brings the fantastic into the story in a way that the first trilogy did not - the gods are made undeniably real, the Outside exists, good and evil are absolute, and there is such a thing as Hell. Where previously we had a world with magic and what appeared simply a flawed earthly doctrine to describe the world, now we are shown almost irrefutably that much of what the Inrithi believe is true. And also shows us a reasonable amount of proof, through the Judging Eye and the actions of te Hundred, that Kellhus is not what he claims - perhaps even believes himself - to be.

As for the fantastic being increased . . . I think this transition we're seeing is a very large arc of reinterpretation, which will end with yet another reinterpretation where the fantastic is not seen as fantastic (the technological explanation I've been hinting at). I don't think Outside is Heaven. Why can't it just be outer space? And the gods are aliens? I definitely think that good and evil will end up being reinterpreted as relative, rather than absolute as we're being led to believe now.

As for "much of what the Inrithi believe is true," what do you mean specifically? My memory for the details of this series is atrocious.

I've always suspected Kellhus isn't what he seemed to be, and I'm very relieved to see that play out.

(I liked the bait-and-switch he pulled with the dragon)

Yes! I suppose you were expecting the dragon bones to come to life, too? That was well-played. I was expecting a dragon Balrog. I guess we all were.

I found it a little amusing the way Cleric plays the roles in this group of Gollum, Gandalf and the Balrog all at once.

Good call! I missed that. I see Gandalf and Balrog, but Gollum?

when it is over, what do you think Kellhus will become?

Are you hinting at a god? Becoming even greater?

[I'm Murrin]

Gollum is wretched, ancient, tormented by his crimes, and in turns ally and betrayer. That aspect of the Nonman Erratic is where I'm seeing the resemblance.

The dragon was something he built everyone up to expect - all the comments before the descent, and the focus on those dreams of Achamian, made you think that a dragon would be lurking in the depths and play the role of Balrog. When we finally get there, the dragon is dead and the Nonman King is what assails them. It's a great trick to keep things from becoming predictable.

And on Kellhus... well, it's a genuine question. What is the next step? Will he be discredited or raised higher? Will he be God, No-God, or something else? I think we can assume he will remain the focal point of events in Earwa, but my guess is the Aspect-Emperor will not survive this volume of the series.

[Zarathustra]

I'm about halfway through The Warrior Prophet, my second read. Every page just reaffirms my conviction that Bakker is much, MUCH better now than before. This book doesn't hold up to a reread like I thought it would. It's still good, but it's not blowing me away like it did the first time. It lacks the depth of TJE. It feels like he's skimming the surface of his characters and the story, in comparison to the penetrating view we get in his latest release.


I can't wait to see what he does next.

[Brinn]

I'm about halfway through The Warrior Prophet, my second read. Every page just reaffirms my conviction that Bakker is much, MUCH better now than before. This book doesn't hold up to a reread like I thought it would. It's still good, but it's not blowing me away like it did the first time. It lacks the depth of TJE. It feels like he's skimming the surface of his characters and the story, in comparison to the penetrating view we get in his latest release.

I agree that he has become much better but, IMHO, that's still selling him short. The story, devices, characters and insights in the original trilogy are amazing and raised my expectations for fiction (not just sci-fi / fantasy fiction but all fiction). Bakker, even at his worst, is still ten times better than 95% of the fanatsy / Sci-fi authors that are out there. IMO, this man is already in some extremely rareified air.
I truly cannot wait until the next book in the series!!!

[Zarathustra]

Shortly after making the post above, I started getting to the good stuff. In my opinion, this book doesn't hit its stride until after the first big round of battles, after Mengedda, when people start surrounding the fire where Kellhus, Achamian, Esmenet, Xinemus, etc. sit each night. That transition from Kellhus the Prince to Kellhus the Warrior-Prophet happens right there when Xin tells him to talk to the surrounding group. And then the sermons begin.

There are many fantastic scenes following this transition, including the one that changes everything for Achamian and Esmenet: the Waki doll confirming that Kellhus is one of the Few. That increases the tension between Xin and Achamian, driving him away, and leading to his capture. From that point on, the book is relentless. The battle of Anwurat. The march through the desert. Esmenet joining Kellhus and Serwe. Achamian's interrogation, fight and escape.

This book almost covers too much ground. We've had two *major* battles at two distinct places--each roughly on a scale of the Battle of Pelennor fields in LOTR--and there's Caraskand yet to come. All the main characters have already gone through major changes. Everyone has suffered, sacrificed, lost. And I still have around 200 pages to go.

It has both intimate scenes and scenes that are massive in their scope. I almost wish he'd broken this series into 6 books, instead of three. If he had focused on the characters more, and the battles less, I think he easily could have done this. There are main characters who barely get any "screen time" at all: like Cnaiur. We could have had more of Xerius and Maithenet. More Conphus. And more of the generals of this massive Holy War. More council scenes, instead of second-hand reports of those councils.

I don't know . . . I'm loving it, but it just feels disorganized.

[Avatar]

Well, I've just finished The Thousandfold Thought. The Judging Eye isn't available here yet as far as I know, but I'll be looking from now on.

When somebody offered to lend this series to me, I took them up solely on the strength of having seen Brinn mention it once or twice. As with Gates of Fire, (Thanks Fist. ) I was not disappointed.

A slow start, especially having just come from reading 5 6 & 7 of the Malazan books, but enough points that looked like they would be interesting...the schools, the chorae, the mandate and Gnosis...to keep me...well...interested. Didn't much like Kelhus (the character) at first, but Cnaiur was awesome through the whole series.

Thought the crusade metaphors and parallels a little heavy handed, but it didn't interfere with my enjoyment.

Still haven't figured out exactly whether Kelhus is acting out of good or ill intent though, or if it's a question of being beyond either of those. Liked the way it slowly became more and more obvious how powerful the gnosis was, and when Achamian finally started wielding it in earnest.

The war scenes were good, but I'm not sure whether Erikson doesn't do battles better...starting my Malazan reread, so will see how I feel during that.

Interesting system of magic, although it does seem rather limited to burning things up, with a few exceptions.

As a believer in a cause and effect universe, and in a conditioning society, I automatically find sympathy with, and interest in, the Dunyain philosophy. Their motives remain obscure so far I think.

Was a bit disappointed with the encounter with Moenghus, although the irony of his mistake was well done.

Overall, awesome. And of course, the question of whether Kelhus now believes in his own miracle...

--A

[Zarathustra]

Avatar, that's pretty much my reaction, too. (And your comments about 5-7 of Malazon make me want to pick that series up again, too.)

As I've been saying, TJE is *much* better. Tighter. More eloquent.

I'm still slogging away through Warrior-Prophet. I agree that the Crusades parallels were heavy-handed. (Luckily, those fall away with TJE, and we get Tolkien parellels. )

I still don't know if Kellhus's intent is good or evil, or beyond. I thought beyond at first, then "good" by the end of TTT (at least to himself--he seemed to take his own divinity seriously). And then I thought it was actually evil in TJE. But now I'm not sure anymore. Bakker does a good job keeping us guessing.

I, too, was disappointed with magic in this series. It does seem to be limited to burning stuff. However, that's not strictly true. They can "float." They can compel a confession. But by the end of the 3rd book, there's pretty much only burning. I do like how the magic is described, at least. I like the schools and the philosophical references.

As far as the battles go, I thought the second big battle was cool (Anwurat), because it was primarily a vehicle for character development. Cnaiur was finally given the role of general, and his failure was as crushing. It was also an opportunity for Kellhus to take Cnauir's place. But when the battles aren't used for character development (Caraskand), they are bland. I don't like battles for the sake of battles. I don't like plot. I like character. Bakker put one too many battlegrounds in The Warrior-Prophet.

Moenghus was a big let-down. Anticlimatic.