The use of "Thank God"

[rusmeister]

Hi guys!
I've been lurking once or twice a month to see if anything of interest is posted. The Close seems pretty dead, on the whole, once you drive the Christians out.

Without arguing, without debating (because I'm not staying, anyway - I have learned the futility of that), and in the context that I find SRD fans in every other way to be generally of above-average intelligence, I'd like to point out that in this thread (and in this sub-forum in general), what you have is a self-congratulatory club. Everybody agrees, nobody attempts to find and bring in serious counter arguments (play the devil's advocate), and thus, the simple arguments (anger at God, if He really IS, for allowing suffering, etc), that actually have deeper refutations go unexamined and the answers are taken for granted - something that a logician would admit is a path to fallacy, if not outright folly.

I don't know what solution to offer you. I don't want to stay, and pretty much no other Christian SRD fan wants to stay, because the atmosphere here winds up being pretty hostile to what we see to be true. But I would think that intelligent people would want to think that their conclusions were not so easy to challenge, and that they would want to know the best of what they disagree with. In any event, it is pretty hard to rise above seeing past our own assumptions, especially if they are held quietly, unconciously, and unexamined by the best challenges to them.

Anyway, I wish the best to all of you!
R

One little thought:

"The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has no one to thank."

attributed to both Chesterton and Rosetti

[Loredoctor]

I don't know what solution to offer you. I don't want to stay, and pretty much no other Christian SRD fan wants to stay . . . In any event, it is pretty hard to rise above seeing past our own assumptions, especially if they are held quietly, unconciously, and unexamined by the best challenges to them.

You were saying about assumptions?

[Avatar]

I don't want to stay, and pretty much no other Christian SRD fan wants to stay...

Really? Far as I can tell, there are plenty of Christian SRD fans here, none of whom share your assumption that we are inherently hostile to Christians, as far as I know. In fact, as I believe I've pointed out, I think non-Christians are in the minority here.

--A

[CovenantJr]

One little thought:

"The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has no one to thank."

attributed to both Chesterton and Rosetti

That doesn't even make any sense.

...pretty much no other Christian SRD fan wants to stay

Really? Care to name them? I'm drawing something of a blank.

[Loredoctor]

One little thought:

"The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has no one to thank."

attributed to both Chesterton and Rosetti

"The worst moment for a Christian is when he realises that his thanks have been unheard."

[Fist and Faith]

I don't know what solution to offer you.

Stop losing sleep over it. We don't feel lost, or scared, or damned. We're ok. No solution is needed.

[rdhopeca]

I don't know what solution to offer you.

Stop losing sleep over it. We don't feel lost, or scared, or damned. We're ok. No solution is needed.

Agreed. You're a lot more worried about us then you need to be. But I will say I sort of miss having you around.

[Avatar]

One little thought:

"The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has no one to thank."

attributed to both Chesterton and Rosetti

That doesn't even make any sense.

Oh, I understand it. I wouldn't call it the worst moment, but I've certainly experienced it. Not having someone to blame or plead with for positive outcomes can be something of a bummer too.

Personally, I make up for it by being Discordian when I feel the urge...it has the advantage that the Goddess doesn't claim to be real, or expect you to actually believe in her. So it's really just a handy personfication for random chance in an uncaring universe. (Unlike Jehovah, Eris has a sense of humour. )

It reminds of the famous epitaph: "Here lies an aetheist...all dressed up, and nowhere to go."

--A

[Fist and Faith]

I don't know anything about Rosetti, but, in general, that quote is an inaccurate assumption that some believers have. I am sometimes happy. Even elated. But that does not mean I ever feel there should be someone to thank for it.

And the opposite (or whatever the term should be) is also true. When things are bad, I don't look for anyone of any thing to blame. I do not feel that anyone should get credit for any of it. Things are simply good at times, and bad at times. There's no thankfulness involved.

I once told Furls that I went outside about midnight one night when it was pouring rain. It was a perfect storm for standing outside. Just a pair of shorts, it was warm, good wind, absolutely gorgeous in every possible way. I just lifted my face up to the falling rain, and laughed for the joy of the experience. Furls asked something like, "How can you not feel God at a time like that??" Those who do feel God at times like that may not understand how it's possible to not. But I don't. I simply feel the joy, without any hand behind the scenes.

[rusmeister]

I don't know what solution to offer you.

Stop losing sleep over it. We don't feel lost, or scared, or damned. We're ok. No solution is needed.

Agreed. You're a lot more worried about us then you need to be. But I will say I sort of miss having you around.

Thanks, Rob!

Like I said, no arguments, but I note that no one has responded to the only important point in my post, which was directed at the OP and responses to it, that the nature of the thread (minus my post and responses to it) is self-congratulatory. You guys don't have anyone to sharpen your swords against. (If I respond to anything else, you might again miss the point.)
It just proves to me the thesis of GKC's introduction to TEM - the special bias against Christianity. www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/everlasting_man.html

Regards,
R

[Fist and Faith]

I haven't actually read this thread. I just happened to click on the second page yesterday, and saw that you had posted. So I can't comment on that part of what you're saying. I just said what was a part of what you just quoted because I wanted you to know that you don't need to worry about us. We're fine. We're not sitting around in turmoil, waiting for anything to make our lives better. If you want to come back and continue debating this or that, that's cool. But don't feel the need to solve things for us.

[dANdeLION]

I don't want to stay, and pretty much no other Christian SRD fan wants to stay, because the atmosphere here winds up being pretty hostile to what we see to be true.

Do you mean here in the Close, or Kevin's Watch in general? Because I'm a Christian and I've been here for years, even if I don't post in the particular forum much.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Like I said, no arguments, but I note that no one has responded to the only important point in my post, which was directed at the OP and responses to it, that the nature of the thread (minus my post and responses to it) is self-congratulatory.

I ignored you because you were, by your own admission, trolling.

I vented my frustrations about the use of the phrase "thank god" and other responded as they saw fit.
aliantha and I even discussed the common history behind it's use.

You offered us......an insulting quote and another link.

How about you offer us your opinion about how you feel when using the term "thank god" or even what you think when you hear others using it?

[CovenantJr]

I don't know anything about Rosetti, but, in general, that quote is an inaccurate assumption that some believers have. I am sometimes happy. Even elated. But that does not mean I ever feel there should be someone to thank for it.

And the opposite (or whatever the term should be) is also true. When things are bad, I don't look for anyone of any thing to blame. I do not feel that anyone should get credit for any of it. Things are simply good at times, and bad at times. There's no thankfulness involved.

That's exactly what I was getting at. 'The atheist' doesn't lament the lack of someone to thank, because there's no thankfulness in that context. So that quote just doesn't work, as a concept.

I once told Furls that I went outside about midnight one night when it was pouring rain. It was a perfect storm for standing outside. Just a pair of shorts, it was warm, good wind, absolutely gorgeous in every possible way. I just lifted my face up to the falling rain, and laughed for the joy of the experience. Furls asked something like, "How can you not feel God at a time like that??" Those who do feel God at times like that may not understand how it's possible to not. But I don't. I simply feel the joy, without any hand behind the scenes.

Again, spot on. It can be a wonderful occurence without having been consciously caused.

Anyway, this is all off topic.

[Avatar]

Oh, I don't lament it. But I've noticed the feeling. Sometimes it's convenient to personify things, even when you know they are merely personifications.

--A

[aliantha]

Rus, how's the family? Is the new little one letting you guys get any sleep yet?

[rusmeister]

Like I said, no arguments, but I note that no one has responded to the only important point in my post, which was directed at the OP and responses to it, that the nature of the thread (minus my post and responses to it) is self-congratulatory.

I ignored you because you were, by your own admission, trolling.

I vented my frustrations about the use of the phrase "thank god" and other responded as they saw fit.
aliantha and I even discussed the common history behind it's use.

You offered us......an insulting quote and another link.

How about you offer us your opinion about how you feel when using the term "thank god" or even what you think when you hear others using it?

Sorry, HLT,
I do not admit trolling, and insult was not intended - the pointing out of the problem of a feeling of gratitude without an object is not insult. The mere inference that a line of thinking may be wrong is not insult.

a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

I do not have such primary intent, and do not see as 'disruption' the pointing out of a major flaw in your thinking about God. Unless you mean by 'disruption': 'daring to disagree with your thesis', I'm not disrupting. It is very relevant if you have no one coming into the Close to challenge your ideas, but again, that is not insult.

For others (such as dANdeLION), when I say 'no Christians', I mean in the Close, where they might defend their faith and challenge false ideas about it. The Christians here either do not post here or do not trouble to defend their faith. Neither will I trouble any longer. For me, it's a pity, because as I said, in every other respect I find people here to be more intelligent than the average bear. But it is a gaping hole in intelligence if you do not take on the best arguments of your philosophical opponents.

I said something very true, and it seems to me far more probable that if you had a response, you would offer it. That is the one thing of value I have to offer a thread on thanking God - that you do not have any intelligent input on why perhaps you should thank God, and so have a quite one-sided view of the affair. You should encourage an intelligent opposition and attempt to persuade, not drive them off. Where's Lina? Does Andy post here any more? (He seems to have withdrawn to the Think Tank). Point is, you have no one to challenge your ideas or point out flaws in them, giving you a chance to better hone your thinking. That's all. That's what I'm saying here and that's what nobody has responded to at all.

[rusmeister]

Rus, how's the family? Is the new little one letting you guys get any sleep yet?

Hi Ali, and thanks!
Yes, we do sleep at night (my wife gets up a couple of times to feed, but doesn't really wake up). My teenage son is going through a pressured final year at high school, and is getting lots of tutoring on the side to up his chances of getting into the big U (Moscow State U); he's a WoW nut. My other kids are still young. My second-grade daughter has sprouted some intellect, and asks lots of questions now. My younger son is a precocious 4 y/o. For all of them, learning to communicate in English is a challenge, because it IS a second language for them. Being as we're in Russia, my wife bears most of the burden for handling their needs; I focus on my teaching, both pupils and my own kids, and for my kids to to learn about and love their father's country, language and culture.

[Kaydene]

Just because someone hasn't stepped up and defended this Christian-Umbrella you're referring to (as a sweeping generalization, I might add), doesn't mean we can't possibly grow from talking with each other about our points of view. Even if every person who posted on this thread didn't believe in a Christian God, there's points for debate and opportunities to grow from sharing opinions.

This:

I said something very true, and it seems to me far more probable that if you had a response, you would offer it.

is bad logic. By your logic, if no one argues your point, then your's is valid.

Also this:

For others (such as dANdeLION), when I say 'no Christians', I mean in the Close, where they might defend their faith and challenge false ideas about it. The Christians here either do not post here or do not trouble to defend their faith.

is slightly insulting. No one challenged Christianity by asking questions about God. To imply a Christian obligatory rallying cry around any religious discussion is to affirm the worst generalization about Christianity; that it's full of bible-thumping converters.

If people who believe in a Christian God (or maybe one of the many variations thereof) would like to discuss why they, personally, thank a deity, I think we'd all welcome that. But to come into a thread and, off the bat, accuse of self-congratulating based on the single point that the majority of us don't rally behind a Christian God ideal, is to miss the point entirely.

[wayfriend]

If people who believe in a Christian God (or maybe one of the many variations thereof) would like to discuss why they, personally, thank a deity, I think we'd all welcome that.

I do, and I did.