R Scott Bakker's "The Judging Eye" Discussion

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Yeah, he was a bit. But he raises an interesting question...that of whether Kelhus has lost his Dunyain way, foresaken his training by deciding that what comes after is not necessarily determined by what comes before, or whether his training is wrong, not him.

As a subjectivist I prefer the idea that Kelhus is wrong. ;) That the Outside does not determine whatever is inside.

Was Anwurat Cnaiur's first battle in command? I thought he'd already won a victory that made the soldiers support him? (Making his defeat even more crushing.)

But he was awesome...I can't wait to see how things work out between him and the Consult. He could be a character in one of the Malazan books. :D

(Dunno if you got past book one yet, but personally, it was the least impressive of them all...it get's much better. I've read books 1-4 three times, 5-8 once, and am just starting again, this time with Esselmont's prequel, and the other parrallel book to slot into it's rightful place.)

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Post by Zarathustra »

I've only read the first Malazon books. To Lucimay's displeasure, I was thoroughly unimpressed. But my favorite author recommends it, and so do lots of people I respect. So I think it's time. After I finish this book, I'll start checking them out of the library. If they really are good, I'll start buying them.
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The second one, Deadhouse Gates redeems all.

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Post by lucimay »

But he was awesome...I can't wait to see how things work out between him and the Consult. He could be a character in one of the Malazan books.
EXACTLY!! i thought the very same thing, Av! he's sooooo malazan, idden he. one of my fav characters in prince of nothing.
kelhus degenerated in the second book. its him. he lost his dunyainyness.

:lol: yeah if i remember correctly malik you said you are a better writer than erikson!! :lol: HUGS AND SHIT!!! :lol:

yeah get through Gardens of the Moon and get on into Deadhouse Gates.
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Post by Brinn »

I've read up through Midnight Tides and still haven't been hooked. I'm a little dissapointed as there's nothing I like more than a good fantasy series to get fired up about. As Malik said, so many people who's literary tastes I respect rave about these books. They just haven't hooked me.

I'm trying to put my finger on the reasons. Here are my impressions: The story, for some reason, feels immense in scope but paper thin. Huge, sprawling, rambling, confusing. Also, I think I gravitate to characters and characterization and Erikson has such a huge cast that it's difficult to really learn about any one character to the extent that I like. I also find that his characters dialogue and interactions don't ring true to my ear. The bridgeburner's jocularity and constant quips grate on my sensibilities. It seems that he's portraying a hollywood version of veteran soldiers and their comraderie rather than something closer to reality. I'm also kind of annoyed by the regularly scheduled comic relief charcaters that Erikson seems to throw in. Kruppe, Tehol, Pust etc... I understand that they do serve the plot (Kruppe in particular) but they seem gratuitous and excessive. The wiki entry for Malazan indicates that Erikson and Esslemont originally imagined GoTM as a comedic film script centered on the Phoenix Inn regulars. This doesn't surprise me in the least. I think a good deal of the original comedic intent leaks into the series as a whole and it just doesn't work for me. It pulls me right out of the books and makes me remember that I'm reading something that someone wrote to be specifically entertaining rather than a hsitoric tale. I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear here but I think I just like my stories more "gritty" and "real".

Despite all my complaints about Erikson I may give him another try with a read from the beginning. With all the people who rave about him there must be something there that I'm missing.
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
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I think the scope is one of the things I like. It is confusing with that host of characters, but I soon got into the hang of not trying to remember too hard what the various connections are.

I do agree though that I'd like a bit more character development...I like a lot of the characters, but with so many, they don't all get much screen time at a go.
LuciMay wrote:kelhus degenerated in the second book. its him. he lost his dunyainyness.
Yeah...he got all religious or something. :D But Cnaiur was awesome...was quite disappointed whn I thought he was dead.

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Well, just finishing DHG on my reread, and have come to the following conclusions:

Erikson's battles are better, but Bakkers philosophy is better. Erikson's religion is more interesting, Bakkers is simpler and more straightforward. Erikson's magic is way better, but Bakker's is more mysterious. I like both of their world building, although Bakkers is less complex. I like both of their history too.

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Post by Brinn »

You forgot one: Bakker's prose is far beyond Erikson's. ;)
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
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Hmmm, I dunno...they write in different styles. I like them both. Erikson's style is certainly more convoluted. But then, as I often say, I'm not a particularly critical reader usually.

(I just don't see how DHG left you cold Brinn. Once again, I found it awesome. I think Erikson's characters are better too. But his development of them is more hit and miss than Bakker's. Too many characters maybe.)

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Post by Holsety »

I saw some pretty interesting observations on the Three Seas board made by someone named Nerdanel back in 2006. Isn't there someone on KW by that name? There is, in fact Nerd said something about kellhus being a prophet of the no-god back in '08 on the PoN thread.

Anyway, this post appeals to me b/c it is a much more exhaustive realization of something I have considered for a long time (that the no-god may be working directly through Kellhus somehow), because I noticed this one time in TTT where Kellhus says something like "What do you see?" to Akka (which mirrors the no-god's dialogue). I really suggest checking it out. Once I have access to my Earwa books I think I will look at them again.

forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1340

The post is basically an argument that another topoi (the thing that causes weird evil stuff in Mangaecca) was formed in Caraskand, and that that had a very significant impact on the story.
I remember a passage (which I'll try to look up and quote tonight) where Aurang, in the body of Esmi, converses with Kellhus. Aurang explains that the Inchoroi are a race of lovers and that they should not be damned by their nature if not for the presence of men. One of the beginning quotations prior to a chapter also notes that, and I paraphrase, "As long as there are men there will be crimes". Thinking about these aspects make me think that Bakker is really saying that there is no morality save for what men make it, even though TJE makes it appear as though Earwa has a defined morality imposed by the outside.
I know this was from a long time ago, but I kind of wanted to respond to it. Perhaps in Bakker's universe, the existence of the gods imposing morality on the world is contingent on the existence of humankind, for whatever reason. "Worship power" or whatever...I dunno. I think you are on to something here. ((I remember during my first read through the series, I made the more simple, out-of-context interpretation that as long as men exist there are crimes because men commit crimes))
As for the fantastic being increased . . . I think this transition we're seeing is a very large arc of reinterpretation, which will end with yet another reinterpretation where the fantastic is not seen as fantastic (the technological explanation I've been hinting at). I don't think Outside is Heaven. Why can't it just be outer space? And the gods are aliens? I definitely think that good and evil will end up being reinterpreted as relative, rather than absolute as we're being led to believe now.
I believe that it was said somewhere (in TTT I think) that the demons summoned by the scarlet spires are summoned from some realm in between that of humans and that of the gods. I'm not sure of where I remember this from, but I hope it's the case. At the time, it seemed like some kind of extra-dimensional thing. Checking on facts like this is the kind of thing a Three Seas wiki would be useful for.

(( As it turns out, there's a barely started one at princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Prince_of_Nothing ))
Still haven't figured out exactly whether Kelhus is acting out of good or ill intent though, or if it's a question of being beyond either of those. Liked the way it slowly became more and more obvious how powerful the gnosis was, and when Achamian finally started wielding it in earnest.
One thing I have been trying to figure out is whether the idea behind the TTT is that someone who masters it consciously shapes all the people around them, or simply comes to understand that their own actions (which shape all others) are also not under their own control.
I, too, was disappointed with magic in this series. It does seem to be limited to burning stuff. However, that's not strictly true. They can "float." They can compel a confession. But by the end of the 3rd book, there's pretty much only burning. I do like how the magic is described, at least. I like the schools and the philosophical references.
All I can really figure out is that in Three Seas magic, the more abstract something is, the more powerful it is (or so it would seem), given the supremacy of the gnostic schools over the anagogic schools.
Erikson's religion is more interesting, Bakkers is simpler and more straightforward.
Hmm, really? Have you read the JE yet? I think that it develops into a lot more in that book - not so much the religious doctrine practiced by the Inithri, but rather the relationship between gods and mortals. To me, Erikson's gods are mostly complex in a political sense (i.e. there's a lot of players and a lot of shit going down between them), with the only deeper theme of religion in Erikson which I find moving being the way in which worshippers shape and control their religions.

I think both authors are very clearly self-aware of the genres they are writing in and use it to good effect; both have done an excellent job of making it their own. (like the excellent point Murrin made about the fusion of balrog, gandalf and gollum)
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Nah, I've only read the first three.

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Half-way through my re-read of the Prince of Nothing series, and enjoying it more this time round.

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Post by Brinn »

There is still hope for you!
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
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Hahaha, I liked it the first time round, but was deliberately comparing to Erikson. Now I'm not. :D

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Post by Brinn »

Read the Judging Eye as well.
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
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I will, as soon as I can find it.

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