A personal problem

[Seareach]

I've got nothing really to add (because I have strong opinions on all this but I'll wanna keep them to myself).

But, hey Aliantha: I love this

Honey, that's not friendship -- that's servitude.

Now that's profound (and I think in Mighara case it sounds apt) but...well...it kinda "spoke" to me (if that makes sense). Thanks for succinctly putting something I've been grappling with in my life!

[Avatar]

Everything that LuciMay said.

--A

[aliantha]

Agreed. What Luci said.

But, hey Aliantha: I love this

Honey, that's not friendship -- that's servitude.

Now that's profound (and I think in Mighara case it sounds apt) but...well...it kinda "spoke" to me (if that makes sense). Thanks for succinctly putting something I've been grappling with in my life!

Always happy to help!

I have somewhat of a tendency to put myself into these sorts of servitudes. I like to think that I'm getting better at spotting them as I get older, but mainly I'm better at spotting them when other people are in them.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

Getting drunk, etc. are no solution, and I should emphasize that the service I render to this guy is one I enjoy. I used to be a tutor back when I was in college, and it was one of the best work highs of my life, confronted with an army of confused students who it was my challenge to help and pulling the victory off. In a better world, I would be a professor of philosophy, actually. I have to appreciate how my friend came into his academic vocation (political science) partly inspired by how spectacularly devoted to philosophical education I present myself. And again, his failure to understand my feelings for him, while unjustified, is explicable not as pure insensitivity on his part. I will point out again: he has lost almost everyone else he cares about in life, parents dead or dying, poisoned relationship with his sister, friends jailed or out of state or whatever, and so on. Do you think that you would so readily acquiesce to the reality of a problem between you and the one last most important person to you that you don't know how to solve and which therefore could easily end up with your hero having to leave you behind?

On a more general note, I don't think there's such a thing as "thinking too much about something." I don't think that contextualizing personal problems with academic jargon is a bad idea. I did it *before* I was in college and I've done it *since* I was kicked out. Unless I'm provided with a valid, technical argument against universally valid, technical judgment, I won't be dissuaded from it on the authority of... well, the authority of nothing, I guess.

Moreover, then, I know what my *real* issue is, here. It's that I was unclear about the principles I was worried I might be violating by giving up on my friendship with this person in the first place. While I'm still not clear on what I should do, I think I have access to the resources I need to figure it out now, and I'm not in the state of argumentative panic I *was* in over the last few days (or weeks).

[Kaydene]

It sounds as if all of the decision-making is based on *his* situation, *his* feelings, *his* life, and *his* needs. What are your needs?

"his failure to understand my feelings"? There's not much to "understand" here, and from what you've said, he already knows you feel this way...but there's a lot that needs to be discussed (about your relationship, the future of it, what you need from him, where you want to go with it) and the fact that he isn't giving you that discussion says that maybe he's just hoping it'll just go away so he can continue leaning on you for everything.

These principles you'd be violating by giving up your friendship with him, do they take into consideration your health and what's best for you? Or could you be manipulating the concept of "self-command" and using philosophy to justify wanting to be near someone even if they don't want to reciprocate the love you're feeling? Far be it from me to say the philosophy you're using is right or wrong, but I think it's important to look critically at it, not only philosophically but also psychologically, to see where you're heading, where you want to end up, and if the two correspond.

I hope you find the answer you're looking for and I hope I don't sound so argumentative about it, but you're pressing pretty hard one way, and I think we're all observing that. I'm wanting to show you another side to it for you to at least consider. Good luck with everything.

[lucimay]

Getting drunk, etc. are no solution, and I should emphasize that the service I render to this guy is one I enjoy. I used to be a tutor back when I was in college, and it was one of the best work highs of my life, confronted with an army of confused students who it was my challenge to help and pulling the victory off. In a better world, I would be a professor of philosophy, actually. I have to appreciate how my friend came into his academic vocation (political science) partly inspired by how spectacularly devoted to philosophical education I present myself. And again, his failure to understand my feelings for him, while unjustified, is explicable not as pure insensitivity on his part. I will point out again: he has lost almost everyone else he cares about in life, parents dead or dying, poisoned relationship with his sister, friends jailed or out of state or whatever, and so on. Do you think that you would so readily acquiesce to the reality of a problem between you and the one last most important person to you that you don't know how to solve and which therefore could easily end up with your hero having to leave you behind?

On a more general note, I don't think there's such a thing as "thinking too much about something." I don't think that contextualizing personal problems with academic jargon is a bad idea. I did it *before* I was in college and I've done it *since* I was kicked out. Unless I'm provided with a valid, technical argument against universally valid, technical judgment, I won't be dissuaded from it on the authority of... well, the authority of nothing, I guess.

Moreover, then, I know what my *real* issue is, here. It's that I was unclear about the principles I was worried I might be violating by giving up on my friendship with this person in the first place. While I'm still not clear on what I should do, I think I have access to the resources I need to figure it out now, and I'm not in the state of argumentative panic I *was* in over the last few days (or weeks).

whatever gets ya through the night.

[Fist and Faith]

On a more general note, I don't think there's such a thing as "thinking too much about something." I don't think that contextualizing personal problems with academic jargon is a bad idea. I did it *before* I was in college and I've done it *since* I was kicked out. Unless I'm provided with a valid, technical argument against universally valid, technical judgment, I won't be dissuaded from it on the authority of... well, the authority of nothing, I guess.

I know another another person who analyzes such issues way too much for my tastes. It's always funny to hear it all. Not funny in a sense that I'm ridiculing what you're going through. Just funny in the sense that my eyes glaze over. Hey, some people's minds work one way, and some work another. You could no more stop thinking of things the way you do than... what... a musician could stop loving music. This is who you are. Embrace it!

And good luck with the guy. I also know that no advice is going to make a damned bit of difference. You are going to do what you're going to do, regardless of what anyone else thinks is a better course of action. You're not really here to find out what the best thing to do is. You're just getting all your thoughts out; clarifying things in your own head; thinking things through by explaining them to an outside source; etc. Maybe even justifying what you don't want to do, but are going to do anyway. Or not. Heh.

[aliantha]

Good luck, Mighara, and feel free to ask more questions here. Goodness knows we're full of advice!

[Cagliostro]

Getting drunk, etc. are no solution, and I should emphasize that the service I render to this guy is one I enjoy.

On a more general note, I don't think there's such a thing as "thinking too much about something."

I wasn't suggesting becoming an alcoholic or something. In fact, several of my suggestions had nothing to do with drinking. And from my personal experience, there is definitely such thing as "thinking too much about something," and I wish someone had given me the same advice. I probably would have ignored it like you are, but once I figured it out myself, it did me a world of good. I am deadly serious when I say this - you can overanalyze something in your life to death. There needs to be a balance, and some good dumb fun can really take you away from the problem a bit and helps reconceptualize it later and put it in a new perspective.
Without going into personal detail, back in my college days when I had a paper to write, I would beat my head against a wall for hours trying to come up with what I am going to write about/what the next sentence would be, etc., and sometimes just going in and taking a shower would be all I would need to calm my brain down and get an inspired idea.
Now, to go into personal detail, back in 2006 I had a very unhappy breakup. We had been dating 8 years, we were engaged, she said she still loved me, and couldn't really explain why she thought it wouldn't work out. I killed myself trying to figure out why, spending most of my time in my head trying to think of what I had done wrong, what she needed from me, what I needed to do to win her back, etc. Friends were sick of hearing about it, so I'd talk to whoever would listen, and I still couldn't get enough time to discuss it. I was working at a mental health facility as their IT guy, and a benefit was 6 free sessions a year. That helped a bit at the time, but I felt like I didn't have enough time in an hour to say everything that was going through my mind. I would sit at home by myself and stew all day long, and fill pages of journals with the same stupid questions. Eventually what I worked out was that I was spending too much time obsessing over this, and that I needed to shut down now and again. Whenever I would do so, I'd have the most profound realizations about myself, our relationship, and, well, life really. Once I started to work out how to shut it off, I started to become happier and actually made some headway toward cheering up. I started going out more, doing karaoke, I auditioned for a play (something I hadn't done in years, which I did because it was something I wanted to do but was usually too scared to do), and became involved in that play. That continually helped me get out of my head because I had to rehearse the songs, and such. And I had a ball doing so. And I worked out three important things by stepping away - 1) I was thinking about it too much and needed to just relax, 2) she is not going to become interested in me again by any romantic gesture or such - there is nothing I can do to win her back - she has to come back of her own will, and 3) I need to move the hell on, and the first step is to get some distance from her for a while, because whenever I am around her, I start thinking again, "will she want to be with me again if I play it cool? if I tell her what discoveries I've made about her? about myself? tear apart whatever lame reason she is giving me this week for not wanting to stay together?, etc." I felt like I was standing on my feet again finally after taking a month off from her, which meant no emailing her, no phone calls, and so forth.

I think Americans in general think too little, and I think being a thoughtful person is a wonderful way to be. But I've seen the other side of it all, and seen how nuts it can make you (or at least me). I think it was that you were emailing a professor, and an online forum (especially one you are not a regular contributor to) about your problems made me think you might be in the place I was a few years ago. Not to mention being in college where the brain is needed to constantly be thinking. Again, I'm not saying to shut it off permanently - just take a night off here and there. These issues will still be around in the morning, and you might have a fresh new take.

[wayfriend]

I think you guys are hitting Mighara too much with the 'thinking too much' thing. Cagliostro, your response was longer than her note to her professor: by that criteria (introduced as evidence of 'thinking too much' by HLT, and the only evidence we have for this accusation), you are obsessing about Mighara's problem more than she is.

That being said ... you sort of are saying what I said more briefly above, although you are not saying it directly. We withdraw our love of someone when we choose to. Sometimes, making that choice is difficult. (And other times, it's all too easy.) When you need to, and don't, it's a rough patch - then you do, and it gets better.

Mighara is worried that if she isolates herself from this guy to make herself feel better, she is acting too selfishly. Sparing herself at the expense of another.

Ironically (to me) this question has an implicit assumption which is selfish. The assumption is that she is not in control of her feelings towards this guy, and that as long as she is near him she can indulge herself in these feelings. (And then feel sad at the pain this causes her.)

Make the choice to withdraw the love. When you do, it gets better.

[Cagliostro]

I think you guys are hitting Mighara too much with the 'thinking too much' thing. Cagliostro, your response was longer than her note to her professor: by that criteria (introduced as evidence of 'thinking too much' by HLT, and the only evidence we have for this accusation), you are obsessing about Mighara's problem more than she is.

Bah....I'm just explaining myself and my reasoning. And I'm just trying to help. Just because I'm longwinded does not mean I'm thinking about it too much.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

I could be incorrectly invoking self-command, which is one thing I'm concerned with. I suppose these are the alternatives I dread:

I. That I will decide to be this guy's friend because I have lied myself into thinking that distancing myself from him would be a sign of emotional weakness on my part, or

II. That I will decide to distance myself from him because I have lied myself into thinking that the emotional pain being around him effects in me is more important than his friendship.

Now personally, I'm used to losing people just as well as this guy is, which is another thing pushing me towards complying with his request for my companionship: a mesh of empathy, sympathy, whatever. On the other hand, he ends up leaving me alone a lot of the time anyway, or blocking me out of a substantial part of his time, inasmuch as I'm not permitted to go to sleep with him (I don't mean that just sexually, I just mean we sleep in different parts of the apartment) and so on. So perhaps continuing to live with him won't solve *my* problem with being alone, even if it would solve his. But then I'm not sure how to solve my problem regardless. I don't know if not solving his will contribute somehow to my own resolution, so perhaps I might as well solve his and leave mine to a different person (if this doesn't make any difference). But what if... Now I know in one respect how I might be "overthinking" this, but I also know how much I enjoy pure thinking in any event. I don't regularly have (or have the chance to have) normal kinds of fun. So is thinking my way of relaxing? Maybe.

I mean, I read a lot, also, including fiction (clearly, why else am I registered here...). It can help. Sometimes though it just makes me think stuff like, "I should be like the Bloodguard and sacrifice x ordinary satisfaction for the sake of some absolute commitment." Namely an absolute commitment to the only person I *can* do so for, the only person who's asked me to do so. (But then I have to worry that I'm being subordinate, not to my passive desires but peer pressure, as it goes. Either would be heteronomy, to again reference a Kantian model of this kind of situation.)

Well, actually, the mom of the last guy I liked a lot wanted the same thing from me. She suggested I pursue a career in law (philosophy majors frequently do this) so that I could be her family lawyer. And she wanted me to be a role model for her kids. And help her through college, too. Like, we were supposed to graduate together. She blocked out the fact that I was not on good terms with her older son (my age) because he was hostile towards my sexual orientation, which made my liking him a lot even worse. That turned out badly for her inasmuch as I ended up too angry to continue my services and left her to solve her problems on her own. But maybe if I'd found some way around my anger I could've just gone on serving her—she smiled at me one time with such pure affection, like my roommate now, when I worked for her, damn it—Bloodguard-style, inflectionlessly... Yeah, I could ramble on and on like this.

*Shakes head to clear it*

[aliantha]

Yeah, I could ramble on and on like this.

*Shakes head to clear it*

So...forgive me if I'm extrapolating incorrectly, but...is part of the problem that your roommate isn't gay?

It's okay to talk about it here. Batty (my older daughter) is a lesbian.

[Cagliostro]

I don't regularly have (or have the chance to have) normal kinds of fun.

I'm not sure what this sentence means.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

So...forgive me if I'm extrapolating incorrectly, but...is part of the problem that your roommate isn't gay?

No. I mean, he's not gay, but he's not straight, either. It makes it worse, that he's fairly comfortable with trespassing on my personal space, just not to the absolute limit. Only the limit at which he leaves me frustrated and uncomfortable.

—What I find fun, is frequently not what I hear most often others describe as fun. I have fun working, doing homework, listening to people's problems, inconveniencing myself (paradoxical as that sounds), etc. I also like movies, music, video games, whatever; but those are less open to me (I don't have my own TV or computer, for instance, I mostly just use the ones at the office of my apartment complex).

[aliantha]

If you find it fun to work and to listen to people's problems, and to do anything you can to help other people (which I assume is what you mean when you say you enjoy inconveniencing yourself), why don't you volunteer at a homeless shelter or a rape crisis hotline, or something of that nature? Seems like that would play to your strengths. Plus you would get some distance from the roommate (who, I gotta tell ya, is sounding more and more to me like a *real* piece of work...). And I'm confident you would receive some training on how to help folks without getting so enmeshed emotionally.

Just a thought. Feel free to reject it.

[Orlion]

I think aliantha's advice is excellent. As far as thinking for fun, how about picking up some philosophy work from the library just for fun? I just read some Foucault just because I could. I would advise against reading Kant for leisure as in that would probably bring the problem to you instead of setting it aside for a moment. John Stewart Mill is also awesome... and I always enjoy a good read of Plato..but now, I'm just ranting

[Avatar]

Foucault is not fun. Maybe he suffers in translation, but the guy writes stuff with a hundred words, and three discrete concepts, per sentence. Easy reading he is not. (And nor is Kant. )

--A

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

I've considered volunteering to mentor juvenile prisoners/delinquents (not sure of the right term, but it would be through the local department for juvenile corrections, if I remember correctly); maybe I should look into that again.

However, LOL, what I meant by "inconveniencing myself" was literally what it sounds like: making myself walk home or to the store or whatever even if someone offers me a ride, for instance. Not exactly heroic... but it boosts my self-esteem, being self-reliant or whatever.

—One of my favorite philosophers to read is Arendt (haha, she actually talks about "saving the world" in some abstract way; and she's got an awesome theory of redemption). Ditto for Kant or Rawls. But pretty much any average entry in the SEP (augh, it's *so* frustrating when it takes them so long to update) can brighten my morning.

There's also watching films and shows, I realize. I just watched the series premiere of White Collar and was blown away.

[Fist and Faith]

It's okay to talk about it here. Batty (my older daughter) is a lesbian.

So that's it! I knew something was wrong with her!













*runs for cover, laughing hysterically*