Lost--Season 6 - Spoilers Abound!!!

[Rigel]

And gawd, having a bobble-his-head-everytime-he-talks Clooney would have made me stop watching the show.

Not Clooney. It was supposed to be Michael Keaton and, yes, he was supposed to die in the pilot.

The writers wanted to show that they were willing to kill of anyone.

[Kil Tyme]

I see. Guess I've stayed away from the internals of the show; which to me is like knowing how saugage is made: I enjoy the end product, but I don't like to know what goes on behind the scenes. To me it would take away much of the mystique, I guess.

[Xar]

A few things occurred to me while re-watching the fifth season and watching the season premiere.

Spoiler

1) Have we ever seen any of MIB's confirmed impersonations - such as Yemi - off the Island? I was thinking about while trying to figure out whether the dead characters who have come back - such as Charlie visiting Hurley or Christian visiting Jack - were all manifestations of the MIB even when saying they were sent by Jacob. Jacob's own words to Hurley in "The Incident" seem to suggest that Jacob sees Hurley's abilities to talk with the dead as a good thing, indirectly encouraging him to believe in what Charlie told him; if so, it follows that Christian's visit to Jack (which was announced to Hurley by Charlie) was also a "good thing" in Jacob's eyes. This led me to consider the possibility that maybe, the dead we've unequivocally seen off-island are the ones on Jacob's side, while the ones we've seen on the Island are MIB's impersonations. Of course, the question is - what about Christian, whom we have seen both on and off the Island? In this regard, I wonder whether the fact that Christian appears to Jack in a suit and appears to Locke and Claire in a disheveled state is a clue that the Christian visiting Jack is the "real" one, and the other is a MIB impersonation.

2) Is it not interesting that - considering we now know that the MIB is the Monster and we know a few of his impersonations - he seems to be a very strict adherent to the doctrine of repentance and asking forgiveness for one's sins, while at the same time having a very rigid set of morals? Let me make an example: when he impersonated Yemi and met with Mr. Eko the last time, he wanted Eko to ask forgiveness and show repentance for the deaths he had caused; when Eko refused, saying that he did the best he could with what he was given, and he was not sorry that he had killed a man to save his brother, MIB got angry and killed him. This would fit with his cynical worldview, exposed in The Incident; he seems to have a high and strict moral standard he holds everyone to, and he believes that those who do not fit that moral standard should die. Jacob, on the other hand, seems to be more benevolent and seems to accept that people are flawed.
Interestingly though, the picture of Jacob that we were painted by Ben and the Others in Season 2-3 is of a very powerful and unforgiving man who chooses only those who are not flawed; I kinda wonder whether the Others had been unknowingly taking orders from MIB for all this time.
This of course leads to the consideration that maybe the reason why Jack, Kate, Locke, Sayid and so on were not on any of Jacob's lists when the plane fell isn't that they were flawed and thus unsuitable; rather, perhaps Jacob consciously kept them off the list so that they would "fly under the radar" of MIB until such a time as they could fulfill their destiny.

[Zarathustra]

Spoiler

Xar, the way you describe MIB, it sounds like Old Testament god vs New Testament god. Angry, vengeful code-enforcer vs forgiving, loving self-sacrificer. I wonder if Jacob and MIB are two sides of the same being?

Or (if the writers go the "these beings were responsible for our religions" route) maybe they're saying that Christianity is itself a misunderstanding of two separate beings that people thought were the same. I hope this isn't the route we're going, but with all the Egyptian imagery, it's possible that they're setting us up for the revelation that Jacob and MIB inspired at least one religious mythology. Unless they're trying to say these are literal gods, I don't see any other conclusion for the Egyptian stuff.

[Akasri]

Xar:

Hurley was seeing dead people off the island. But whether that was his own mind, or the MIB I'm not real clear on.

[Orlion]

What you guys are stating goes against what I heard about the show having a beginning and and end from the start. Suggesting that characters development, and in Jack's case a commuted death sentance, means that they made some major stuff up as they went along. And gawd, having a bobble-his-head-everytime-he-talks Clooney would have made me stop watching the show.

The overarchnig plot structure of crash, hatch, others, boat, leaving the island, coming back, time travel, etc, was presumably all planned out, but the characters and their arcs were developed as they went along. They didn't even have all the characters worked out until a couple days beofre they started shooting the pilot (the characters were built around the actors they got).

That's about right... though I think it had more to do with mythology and what the Island was/is then individual characters or even structure...

Spoiler

The flash-sideways are a recent development, anyway.

[lucimay]

xar, i like your "under the radar" theory.

over the course of watching the entire series (pilot to s5 finale)
straight through, there were many times when seeming inconsistancies
or questions would arise in my mind but i never backtracked and
rewatched any of the episodes. and sometimes an episode or two
later the inconsistancy or question would be addressed or at least
semi-addressed or at least given some place in the puzzle that you
could see down the road would be addressed. like yemi and mr. eko.
i knew that later i'd see the importance of this portion of the plotline
so i was content to plow onward and did not go back and rewatch.

however, the whole yemi-mr. eko thread was particularly
interesting to me because while watching it, i felt that it held some
sort of key to the larger story. your #2 "is it not interesting" point
sort of cleared that up for me. i think you're right. i think i sensed
that yemi and eko were somehow important but i wasn't seeing the
forest for the trees. so thanks. your thoughts "feel" right to me.

[I'm Murrin]

One point on that matter, is that Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sawyer were in fact on one of the Others' lists, at the end of season 2. Though I guess it's arguable they were picked purely by Ben so that he could get himself healed.


Season 2, ?: Ana Lucia, who has just died, and Yemi appear to Mr. Eko in a dream sequence, much like the one Locke experienced that led to the Nigerian plane and Boone's death. Locke also sees Yemi in a dream later. Both dreams lead Locke and Eko to the question mark - the Pearl station, where Locke finds an excuse to completely abandon his faith, and Eko becomes convinced that the button is important.

Note that these prophetic dreams have included dead people, but they are different to things like Christian and the season 3 Yemi appearance - those were not dreams.

I think this suggests that the black smoke simply took advantage of the faith these dreams had given Eko when it appeared to him as Yemi before his death. The cause of the dreams is as yet unknown.

[Xar]

Xar:

Hurley was seeing dead people off the island. But whether that was his own mind, or the MIB I'm not real clear on.

We know that the dead people Hurley saw off the island were not just his own mind playing tricks on him: Jacob implicitly confirmed that Hurley was really seeing the dead when they traveled together in the taxi ("The Incident"), and earlier on, when Jack went to visit Hurley in the mental institution, Hurley gave Jack a message from Charlie saying Jack would be "visited soon", which occurred in the form of Christian. I would go so far as to say that by confirming to Hurley that he is not crazy and that he truly sees the dead, Jacob implied (to the audience, at the very least) that those off-Island visions were part of his plan, or anyway they were "benevolent", so to speak. At the very least, Jacob was confirming that Hurley was really seeing the dead, not an impersonator.

Now, as far as I remember, the only dead people who have been seen off-Island (and not in dreams) were seen in the flashforwards, and they were Charlie, Ana Lucia and Christian (interestingly enough, Christian appeared in a suit in this off-Island appearance, despite appearing in a disheveled state to the people on the Island).

Now if the first part of this theory is right, then it suggests that the Charlie, Ana Lucia and Christian who have appeared off-Island were truly what they appeared to be, and were not simply disguises of the MIB. And if that is true, then this seems to suggest that the MIB has not or could not leave the Island, whereas Jacob could. Certainly, the fact that

Spoiler

he wants to go home

, as said in "LA X", seems to support the idea that

Spoiler

the MIB is restricted in some fashion

. It should also be noted that none of the dead appeared off-Island to Locke, as far as I remember - despite his supposed importance for the Island itself.

It's not plausible to imagine that everything we've seen thus far was the MIB's doing; we know Jacob

Spoiler

had some plan, knew what was going to happen (the wooden ankh with the names of those losties who reached the temple clinches it, I would guess), and may have voluntarily chosen to die in order to further it (even Ben wonders why Jacob didn't defend himself when he stabbed him, and MIB's suggestion - that Jacob "knew he was beaten" - sounds very much like a dangerous assumption on his part).

It would stand to reason to imagine that some elements of all we know fit into Jacob's plan, and others fit into the MIB's plan; and if the speculation above is true, then one could already start distinguishing between the two based on the concept that those dead who appeared off-Island were not the MIB, were truly what they said they were, and may actually have spoken on Jacob's behalf.

Zarathustra, despite the similarities between Jacob and the MIB on one side, and the two figures you mention, I chose to avoid mentioning them because frankly, I doubt the writers will plunge headfirst into a religious debate - especially one which could be so controversial and which would be likely to ruin the series for a lot of people. Although I have to say that the similarities seem to be striking - especially concerning the whole attitude about

Spoiler

sinning, repentance and forgiveness

which the MIB has. However, rather than

Spoiler

Old Testament vs New Testament

, one of my theories sees MIB as

Spoiler

some sort of angel-figure who is charged with watching over Jacob and/or the Island, but who has become disgruntled with his job over time and now wishes he could be done with the whole thing so he could go home. Unfortunately, being prevented from both simply leaving and from killing Jacob himself, he had to work through proxy. It would also fit with the "security system" concept.

I'll go so far as to say that the rest of that theory (but this is purely speculation on my part) is that

Spoiler

Jacob's presence on the Island or in human form was some sort of punishment for him, but that over time, he has matured and changed considerably, leading him to feel kinship for humans, whereas his "guardian" was disdainful of them.

This could explain why Jacob seems to especially rely on "flawed" characters such as Jack, Sawyer, Sayid, Hurley and Kate.

[Kil Tyme]

That's a great theory, Xar. Would seem to make sense at face value. My only hope is that they don't pull a "Spielberg" and make em aliens.

[Xar]

That's a great theory, Xar. Would seem to make sense at face value. My only hope is that they don't pull a "Spielberg" and make em aliens.

I don't think they'd do that, as there would have been no foreshadowing whatsoever of that possibility. But since I tend to believe that several things on the show were made up as they went along (apart from the main plot lines, of course), I'm worried they'll try to either shoehorn everything into a contrived explanation, or they'll simply sidestep answering some uncomfortable questions - even though they really should by the end.

I guess in keeping with what was said before, I would also be really disappointed if they pulled a "poof, these guys are gods and the true foundation of [insert religion]"...

[I'm Murrin]

I do worry about the making it pu as they go part. Apart from the characters (did you know Ben was only created because they liked the actor in his original six-episode role as "Henry Gale"?), there were some comments in the bonus material I watched today that suggested that they didn't even know what was in the hatch until quite late into season 1.

[Orlion]

That's correct, Murrin, they actually go a little in depth with that in a bonus feature on S2.

But rest assured, they have said that the ending will not involve aliens, be a dream, or the happenings in a bubble in someone's snow globe. Be funny if

Spoiler

there's symbolism in the whole button pushing thing with Desmond and the other guy and Jack and MIB.

[Rigel]

I think there's more than one smoke monster.

Spoiler

We know that FLocke is one. We also know that one appeared to Ben and took the form of Alex; when Ben related this experience to FLocke, it surprised him. Therefore, I think the two are separate beings who work together.

Actually, while there could be any number of them, I think there are three. Check out the bottom of this page:
The Monster

Specifically, the section labeled "Cerberus."

Now, Cerberus in Greek mythology was a 3 headed dog who guarded the gates of Hades (not Hell, but the afterlife).

I've a hunch that there are 3 smoke monsters... well, there were, as I think Jacob was the 3rd. Now we're left with FLocke, and the other (who appears to be on his side).

[I'm Murrin]

Do you have any reason to believe any statement or reaction from Locke between the Ajira crash and Jacob's death?

[Xar]

I think there's more than one smoke monster.

Spoiler

We know that FLocke is one. We also know that one appeared to Ben and took the form of Alex; when Ben related this experience to FLocke, it surprised him. Therefore, I think the two are separate beings who work together.

Actually, while there could be any number of them, I think there are three. Check out the bottom of this page:
The Monster

Specifically, the section labeled "Cerberus."

Now, Cerberus in Greek mythology was a 3 headed dog who guarded the gates of Hades (not Hell, but the afterlife).

I've a hunch that there are 3 smoke monsters... well, there were, as I think Jacob was the 3rd. Now we're left with FLocke, and the other (who appears to be on his side).

Spoiler

FLocke didn't go with Ben into the summoning chamber, so there's no reason why he could not have transformed into the Monster immediately after Ben went in, played the part of mindless monster/dead Alex, then gone back outside and reassumed Locke's form before Ben came out. As for FLocke's surprise when Ben told him what Alex had said, well, I'm pretty sure he was just faking it (especially given how he reacts - he seems vaguely surprised but immediately goes on to say that it's good because he won't even have to persuade Ben to kill Jacob). Consider this: if FLocke had demonstrated no surprise whatsoever, Ben would have found it suspicious (after all, Locke didn't know what the Monster was or how it judged people). Ben isn't stupid, and he already had troubles accepting Locke's resurrection (he tells Sun that this is NOT normal, even for the Island's standards, and it scares him), so if his suspicions had been further aroused, it might have been harder for FLocke to persuade him to kill Jacob. And given that FLocke managed to persuade everyone he was Locke for a while, I'd think he's a good enough actor that feigning surprise wouldn't be outside the range of his skills.

As for making it up as they go along - they also said that they plan to reveal who the skeletons from "House of the Rising Sun" were, as "proof" they knew what they were doing all along. Personally, however, I found this statement a bit ludicrous for two reasons: 1) Knowing they were a man and a woman, most people already assume they're Rose and Bernard (who were last seen living in seclusion together with Vincent in 1977, during the fifth season); and 2) even coming up with an explanation for those skeletons doesn't prove anything: the skeletons never played any part in the storyline, so as far as we know they could have just tossed them in there as an additional mystery, and later on they could have made up the connection and decided who they were.

In any case, I would think that by now, we're past the "electromagnetic pockets" explanation - ageless people, sentient smoke monsters who are repelled by ash, foresight, miraculous healing and resurrections mean that by now, we're definitely in supernatural territory.

Incidentally, a thought occurred concerning the flash-sideways of LA X:

In "The Incident", one of the flashbacks involved Locke's fall from an eighth-story window, and Jacob being there. It looked like Locke was dead, but then Jacob touched him and he revived. Other characters have also mentioned how Locke's survival was miraculous. And this all occurred only four years before their crash on the Island, so definitely after 1977; so, if in the flash-sideways the bomb detonated, the island was sunk beneath the waters... does Locke's presence on the plane imply that Jacob still exists in that timeline, even though the Island is underwater? I wonder what happened to the MIB there...

Also, I've seen a few people listing Locke's assertion to Boone that he went on the walkabout as one of the differences between the original timeline and the flash-sideways... but I'm surprised no one thought that Locke might have simply lied to Boone. As we know from flashbacks, he was on Oceanic 815 because he had been denied his walkabout and was going back home; and I doubt that the travel agency guy's reaction to Locke changed as a consequence of the Island being sunken. So maybe Locke just lied to Boone, especially since if he had said the truth, it would have meant admitting a humiliating experience.

[I'm Murrin]

Spoiler

I agree on the Boone part; it was a misdirect which was revealed when he was lifted into the chair at the end of the episode.

On Jacob healing Locke after his fall - I think that may be a minor continuity error that they've let through so that they can tell the story this way.

[Zarathustra]

Spoiler

Why would Jacob healing Locke be a contiuity error? In the alternate timeline, maybe Locke gets paralyzed in a way other than falling out a window. Or maybe it happens from lower window so that it's not life-threatening. Or maybe he would have survived even if Jacob hadn't been there.

[Xar]

Spoiler

Why would Jacob healing Locke be a contiuity error? In the alternate timeline, maybe Locke gets paralyzed in a way other than falling out a window. Or maybe it happens from lower window so that it's not life-threatening. Or maybe he would have survived even if Jacob hadn't been there.

Spoiler

But if the only difference between the original timeline and the alternate one is that the island sunk beneath the ocean long before Oceanic 815, then why would that affect Locke's accident - which, as we know, was caused by his father, who had no connection to the Island whatsoever? I would tend to believe either that Locke's survival means that alternate Jacob still revived him, or that the accident we saw in "The Incident" didn't kill him and he was only unconscious when Jacob touched him. Either way, I don't think alternate Locke is paralyzed because of different circumstances.

[Orlion]

Spoiler

Why would Jacob healing Locke be a contiuity error? In the alternate timeline, maybe Locke gets paralyzed in a way other than falling out a window. Or maybe it happens from lower window so that it's not life-threatening. Or maybe he would have survived even if Jacob hadn't been there.

Spoiler

But if the only difference between the original timeline and the alternate one is that the island sunk beneath the ocean long before Oceanic 815, then why would that affect Locke's accident - which, as we know, was caused by his father, who had no connection to the Island whatsoever? I would tend to believe either that Locke's survival means that alternate Jacob still revived him, or that the accident we saw in "The Incident" didn't kill him and he was only unconscious when Jacob touched him. Either way, I don't think alternate Locke is paralyzed because of different circumstances.

Spoiler

It could be that the healing was only suppose to take full effect when Locke ended up on the island, in which case he would have survived either way.