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Fist and Faith
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Post by Fist and Faith »

rusmeister wrote:I think that would be exactly the case - except that it's hardly even a trick, when everything I see DOES fit my conclusions, fits them better than yours, and your arguments (those traceable by logic and reason, rather than conclusions) do not match anything I see. If you feel the same way,
That's the key. The reason I keep telling you you are arrogant and insulting. You insist that feeling the same way about our positions on things is literally proof of faulty thinking, at best, and insanity, at worst.

rusmeister wrote:then we are left to decide whose arguments based on reason, leaving faith out of it, are actually better (unless/until such time as experience might change the knowledge and therefore conclusions).
There's no possibility of you leaving your faith out of it. It's the goal of your arguments based on reason. Where would your reason lead you if not to your faith?
rusmeister wrote:OK. read the essay - I think it'll be more fun to duel around that! :)
Turns out I can read it with Wordpad. The problem was Word is messed up on my cpu.
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Still a man hears what he wants to hear
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Post by rusmeister »

Fist and Faith wrote:
rusmeister wrote:I think that would be exactly the case - except that it's hardly even a trick, when everything I see DOES fit my conclusions, fits them better than yours, and your arguments (those traceable by logic and reason, rather than conclusions) do not match anything I see. If you feel the same way,
That's the key. The reason I keep telling you you are arrogant and insulting. You insist that feeling the same way about our positions on things is literally proof of faulty thinking, at best, and insanity, at worst.

rusmeister wrote:then we are left to decide whose arguments based on reason, leaving faith out of it, are actually better (unless/until such time as experience might change the knowledge and therefore conclusions).
There's no possibility of you leaving your faith out of it. It's the goal of your arguments based on reason. Where would your reason lead you if not to your faith?
rusmeister wrote:OK. read the essay - I think it'll be more fun to duel around that! :)
Turns out I can read it with Wordpad. The problem was Word is messed up on my cpu.
For the umpteenth time on insult and arrogance - any person who, whether via faith, reason, or a combination, is sure of absolute truth, is going to say that you are wrong. It is not possible to expect otherwise. Take offence if you will, but it is you who are taking it. Would you have me preface every sentence with "in my opinion"? But I do not think it merely my opinion. Every dogma with "in my worldview"? I realize that saying that another is wrong on a question, when we have stripped it down to bare bones and we disagree, and one or both parties MUST, logically, be wrong, does not logically explain an argument, only a conclusion. But it is inevitable. Faulty thinking is possible in any person - we are both sure that we have excluded that possibility in our thinking. Insanity? Yes, some forms of thought do lead to certain ultimate conclusions (which you deny) and so ultimately lead to insanity - in the literal sense of unhealthy mental thinking - thinking gone wrong - and not in any other sense. The "insult" would be the charge that you really have not thought that far, don't see those conclusions, and so deny them. But I should clarify that I do NOT mean that you (or anyone who holds such forms of thought) are actually insane. Only that sooner or later that's where it will get you. If I actually said - or you got that I actually meant that you are insane, I apologize. It would be wrong of me to say that.

It comes down to an inevitable clash between views of absolute truth - which includes the clash between absolute truth and pluralism - they must necessarily deny each other as true.

On your second point - I certainly do not keep my faith out of my personal view and reasoning - they are complementary and support each other. But I attempt, in public discourse, to exclude my faith from argument as such, and so fight all the time with "one hand behind my back", out of understanding that most of you folks don't accept the faith.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

I'm not upset that you say I'm wrong. Neither of us can prove the other wrong, but we both believe the other wrong. That's fine. The problem is you saying that not believing what you believe will lead to insanity. You ignore what you actually see around you. There is not the slightest reason to believe that those of my beliefs are more likely to be or become insane than those of your beliefs. There are sane and insane people whose beliefs are much like mine, and sane and insane people whose beliefs are much like yours. There is no correlation between my beliefs and insanity. You are perfectly welcome to believe what you believe. If your faith makes you happy, more power to you! But your argument that not sharing your faith will, eventually, lead to insanity is a flat-out lie. Perhaps you didn't make it up, but you're repeating it. It is insane to judge a person's sanity only on whether or not they share your beliefs. Someone can be a scientist who discovers a cure for some disease, or helps plants grow more food, or invents an inexpensive energy source - people who clearly recognize the laws by which the universe operates. A fireman who risks his life to save others; a teacher who helps children learn to read; a nurse who heals bodies and spirits - people who are selfless and giving and love even strangers. What is unhealthy about the mental thinking of either of those groups? Unhealthy mental thinkers might try to jump off of buildings expecting to fly to safety; or imagine themselves to be Napoleon or Jesus; of hear voices telling them to kill people. But none of that matters to you. The only criteria needed to be considered insane is to not believe as you do.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

Fist, I think in this case you're taking rus' use of the word "insanity" a bit too far, he explained himself what he means by it. It may or may not be the correct word to use, but his intended meaning is not unreasonable - that to see something and come to a clearly false conclusion based upon it is evidence of broken reasoning faculties.

How you determine what is a false conclusion is another matter.

Two people observing the same things and coming to different conclusions from them is only evidence of faulty thinking if enough evidence is preent to conclusively say that one conclusion is the correct one. As rus clearly believes that there is enough evidence and the answer is self-evident, he will always conclude that you are engaging in faulty thinking, even if it is reasonable to say his conclusion of said self-evidence could be equally in fault.

In other words, as you both seem to have realised already, you're at an impasse and aren't gonna get any further with this. ;)
Last edited by I'm Murrin on Sat May 22, 2010 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rusmeister wrote: Good answer.

I think that would be exactly the case - except that it's hardly even a trick, when everything I see DOES fit my conclusions, fits them better than yours, and your arguments (those traceable by logic and reason, rather than conclusions) do not match anything I see.
Well, it's not a trick from your point of view, because you're sure you're right. :D From my point of view, the justification depends on the acceptance of it's underlying assumption. Which of course is that you're right.

Now excuse me, I have something to read. :lol:
Murrin wrote:... you're at an impasse and aren't gonna get any further with this.
:lol: Oh, we know...never seems to stop us though. :lol:

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Murrin wrote:Fist, I think in this case you're taking rus' use of the word "insanity" a bit too far, he explained himself what he means by it.
He's trying to sugar-coat it. I say rubbing two sticks together lights a fire, and makes me warm. I can talk about combustion, what's required for flame, and everything.

rus says that fire is the Holy Spirit. That it is God's will making us warm. Maybe rus is even saying combustion is part of God's plan, etc, etc.

And rus says my thinking is short-circuited because I don't see it his way. I only see what is visible, reproducible, and explainable. What is only visible, reproducible, and explainable is not sufficient for him, so he sees what is not visible, reproducible, or explainable. And for that, he says I am insane. "Unhealthy mental thinking" doesn't mean anything.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Here's my first problem with The Poison of Subjectivism. It comes pretty quick, in the 2nd sentence. (Coulda been worse, eh? :lol:)
Correct thinking will not make good men of bad ones; but a purely theoretical error may remove ordinary checks to evil and deprive good intentions of their natural support.
Obviously, one must agree with Lewis on what "correct thinking" is. Which means one must agree with his worldview. As rus frequently states, not doing so is proof of incorrect (short-circuited/insane) thinking.

His own logic, hitherto the king whom events in all possible worlds must obey, becomes merely subjective. There is no reason for supposing that it yields truth.
There are a great many reasons for supposing logic yields truth. The understanding that each individual has of reality's laws is what allows each individual to remain alive. Logic says that, if a watermelon is seriously damaged when dropped from a fifth floor balcony, I might be seriously damaged from the same drop. It would be illogical to test the theory, and most of us don't. In fact, the definition of "correct thinking" might be that thinking which does not make one act against the laws of reality that keep us alive.

Our logic also allows us to make incredible technological advancements. The fact that our logic does keep us alive and let's us make these advancements means that it does work. And there is no reason to assume it will suddenly become inaccurate when examining itself.

There are modern scientists, I am told, who have dropped the words truth and reality out of their vocabulary and who hold that the end of their work is not to know what is there but simply to get practical results.
This is a very odd sentence. Science examines reality. Practical results are what allow us to understand reality. To discover facts, learn laws. To know what's there.

As I've said, I define "truth" and "fact" as different things. I'm not sure whether the scientific community agrees with me or not, which might make things difficult to discuss. But it keeps things clear for me. A fact is something we can see, define, test, retest, quantify, predict, etc. Truth is how we view the facts; how we fit them into our beliefs.

the fatal superstition that men can create values, that a community can choose its "ideology" as men choose their clothes.
Yes. This is exactly how the world has always worked. Different communities have had different values. Those values are what define the community. Is the community one of freedom and equality? One of diversity? One of oppression? One of homogeneity? And each community makes rules that are designed to keep itself, to keep its defining values, alive.

Everyone is indignant when he hears the Germans define justice as that which is to the interest of the Third Reich. But it is not always remembered that this indignation is perfectly groundless if we ourselves regard morality as a subjective sentiment to be altered at will. Unless there is some objective standard of good, overarching Germans, Japanese, and ourselves alike whether any of us obey it or no, then of course the Germans are as competent to create their ideology as we are to create ours. If "good" and "better" are terms deriving their sole meaning from the ideology of each people, then of course ideologies themselves cannot be better or worse than one another. Unless the measuring rod is independent of the things measured, we can do no measuring.
The Nazi values are as correct for the Nazis as any other culture's is for them. Many other cultures and individuals are so appalled by the Nazis because their Nazis go so strongly against their own; not because the Nazis go so strongly against an objective standard. There have been and are enough other cultures that agree wholeheartedly with the Nazis in spirit, if not necessarily in specifics. (The Hutus thought that genocide was the answer to their problems with the Tutsis. Early America thought that genocide was the answer to its problems with the Indians. The Serbs thought that genocide was the answer to their problems with the Bosniaks. The Nazis, of course, would have, given the chance, killed everyone mentioned.) Simply put, it is up to each culture to try to ensure its own survival. Most other cultures opposed the Nazis, because the Nazis would have eradicated all other cultures. If I want to survive, I must stop you from killing me.

And, often enough, cultures are also attacked from within. For reasons other than shared values, cultures often grow so big that they contain groups with values other than those that the culture is supposedly based on. A common enemy might unite people into what is seen as a single culture. But is India a single culture? Is the USA? Is New York State? No, none of them are. So the cultures - the groups that share values - within these entities are often at odds.


I've only brought up things within the first five paragraphs so far. :lol: You can rebut as much as you want, rus, but I won't respond. There is no point. What point in "No, he is correct, because..." "No, he is wrong, because..." As I always say, this is putting the cart before the horse. One must first believe that God created us all a certain way before one will believe that we all feel the same moral law, which some then choose to act against. If one does not believe God created us all a certain way, one might think that the many different ways people behave are an indication that people feel many different ways.
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Post by rusmeister »

I'm really tempted to a quick reply here (for once? At last?)
These are two of the most faulty statements I have seen:
The understanding that each individual has of reality's laws is what allows each individual to remain alive.
There are so many people who have died through faulty understandings of reality and its laws that this hardly needs anything to refute it.
Truth is how we view the facts; how we fit them into our beliefs.
People viewed the world as flat for millenia - yet it was not true that the world was flat. They may have acted on it as true, and it seemed to work well enough for them, but it was not an accurate picture of the world; it was not the truth.

It seems that you deny objective truth - while you claim to perceive objective truth, you at once deny it by your insistence on personal psyche and perception, which seems to deny altogether common perception and common understanding - and thus, common truth. Denial of common truth ends all discussion right away. Whatever I could possibly attempt to say about common truth can be immediately denied as personal perception.

If so, you could not possibly understand Lewis, because he, like most philosophers in history before him, assumes that discussing anything only makes sense in light of a search for common truth. We can only agree if there is something that is not purely subjective, that we can actually agree upon.

When Lewis speaks of correct thinking, he is talking about anything that such people (who search for common truth) would acknowledge as true. If it has been established that gravity pulls objects downward, then it is nonsense to speak of it pulling objects upward, or that it is mere "personal perception". So if you apply what he is saying to what HAS been established as true, then you can immediately say that what he is saying makes sense. (Only you'd likely say that it doesn't, proceeding from your own "personal perception" POV)

Thus, his speaking of logic presupposes that the logic spoken of arrives at common truth. In that regard, there IS such a thing as objectively true and objectively false logic, and those that get it wrong on something vital would fail to survive, make advancements, etc. on anything based on that objectively faulty logic, on what really IS the true state of things. So while societies might vary on, say, moral philosophy, if they get it completely wrong they will fail. If they praise cowardice and treachery, abandoning one's children, etc, the society will collapse sooner or later. As soon as you admit that it is possible to get some things wrong, it becomes possible to see that there IS a compass pointing in a certain general direction.

Other nations did NOT only react to the Nazis to prevent themselves from being killed. The increasingly post-Christian nations still held the values of Christendom regarding life and right behavior, and Americans, above all, stood up, volunteered and went to put the Nazis down at great personal risk, and many paid the full price, when the behavior that would have best ensured their survival would have been to stay home.

Finally, it is nonsense to assume that one must believe that God created us in a certain way in order to accept the concept of moral law. Pagans believed in all sorts of gods, but on the whole they agreed more than they disagreed on moral behavior, from Hammurabi's code to Roman law.
It is totally unfair on your part, and you are greatly mislead, to assume that Lewis starts from the assumption of God. He himself was a solid atheist until he was nearly 30, and well understood the mindset that denies God.

Maybe if you get the idea that the writer assumes there is actual - and objective - truth out there, and that various truths HAVE been discovered and established, that by them one can see examples of correct and incorrect thinking - that there IS such a thing, then you could go back and read it again and see what he has to say in a totally different way. If not, then conversation over. People who accept that there IS common truth can't talk to people that don't (and vice-versa).
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Post by Fist and Faith »

As I said, I'm not going to do this. We've done it enough. And when having my worldview - every part of which is based on observable, verifiable, reproducable events - and refusing to believe in a worldview that is based on non-observable, non-verifiable, non-reproducible ideas, some of which actually contradict the observable, verifiable, reproducable reality all around us, is proof of my insanity... Well, it's difficult to see a point in continuing.
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Post by rusmeister »

Fist and Faith wrote:As I said, I'm not going to do this. We've done it enough. And when having my worldview - every part of which is based on observable, verifiable, reproducable events - and refusing to believe in a worldview that is based on non-observable, non-verifiable, non-reproducible ideas, some of which actually contradict the observable, verifiable, reproducable reality all around us, is proof of my insanity... Well, it's difficult to see a point in continuing.
OK.

I believe that you have experienced verifiable events. I just question your thinking about those events.
And again, I deny claiming that you are insane. I say that what you believe logically ends up there, and I see a difference. You just don't take it to its logical conclusion.

So yeah, not much point.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

rusmeister wrote:And again, I deny claiming that you are insane. I say that what you believe logically ends up there, and I see a difference. You just don't take it to its logical conclusion.
And this is the key to our... disagreement. Someone with your worldview cannot know where the logical conclusion of various thoughts are when viewed from my worldview. But you think you can. And you think it is proof that my thinking is wrong. That line of reasoning shows that your thinking is wrong. At least about this particular topic. God knows I don't want to risk you becoming more focused on the flaws with an analogy than on the point of it (There's no such thing as a perfect analogy, after all. The only thing that perfectly represents any given situation is that given situation.), but it's as though a musician and an expert in acoustical properties are arguing about sounds. Neither can be proven wrong by the other. They study the same thing, but in different terms. Terms that cannot, outside of themselves, rule out the other. The emotions evoked by music cannot be disproved by talk of wavelengths and frequencies. Wavelengths and frequencies cannot be disproved by talk of emotions.

And I don't pretend to be able to prove your beliefs wrong. But it is impossible for yours to prove mine wrong. Not in any objective way. You can only prove my worldview wrong within your own.

My worldview is different from yours in that it can't prove yours wrong, even within itself.
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