Lost--Season 6 - Spoilers Abound!!!

[sindatur]

Nicely done Wayfriend

[ItisWritten]

The island actually has a cork?!? It's not merely metaphorical, but a giant cork that Hume can pull out? And why was Hume needed? Seems like Jack could have done it, since he put it back.

Why did MiB turn into a smoke monster when he went down the hole, but Jack and Hume did not?

Because Desmond had that resistance to EM forces, he could step into the pool and survive. You saw the bones around the chamber. How many people had tried before Desmond? If Jack had tried, he would not have survived, and may have had something like what happened to MIB happen to him. When Jack put the cork back in, there was no power to prevent him. Just his own injuries.

When the brother went down the hole, I suspect the source was waiting for a vessel to push the evil that was Smokey away from it. Mother's caution about staying out of the light because of the danger "or worse" leads me to wonder if other monsters had come out of the Source.

Perhaps because the evil was physically incarnate allowed Desmond to approach without that problem.

[TIC TAC]

Having watched LOST's entire run (including the finale) I have to say I generally believe my time has been well spent however I had hoped for a more "defined" conclusion to the series. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the final 2 hours I was just hoping for a bit more. I quess the mystery itself is more entertaining than the soluton. Reminds me of how I felt about Babylon 5 when all was revealed. You build up alot of preconceptons in you mind thinking "Man whatever this is its going to be mad cool" and when you discover the writers aren't quite as creative as you thought they were, well it's kind of a let down.

All in all I have to say I enjoyed the series. Nuff said.

[dANdeLION]

Kate = Linden (we hate her, saves everyone at the end)

Both killed a parent, both raised a son that wasn't theirs, both tried to take care of a mad woman.......

And, like you started to say, they're both hated by the women who can't be them and the men who can't have them.

[I'm Murrin]

Heh. You know, at one point in the ep when I saw a group of the characters show up somewhere I found myself thinking about them by what they do or who they are rather than their names... and Kate. Could not fill in the blank for her. She's just Kate.


I think maybe they should have made a little extra room in the Hurley/Ben church scene (or possibly the Jack/Christian scene) to make a suggestion that Hurley had used his Jacob-powers to create that afterlife situation for them all. I do think it is the case (otherwise the comment about not being able to leave the island, about changing that, about a new way of doing things, would have had little point), I just think they should have come out and said it.

[wayfriend]

Kate = Linden (we hate her, saves everyone at the end)

Both killed a parent, both raised a son that wasn't theirs, both tried to take care of a mad woman.......

Nice ones, hombre sans nombre.

I think the list could be quite exhaustive if we work on it hard enought.

Jacob's words lock it for me. They could have been spoken by the Creator.

"I didn't pluck any of you out of a happy existence. You were all flawed. I chose you because you needed this place as much as I needed you."

The Creator's words could have been spoken by Jacob.

"I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land. You were free to damn Land and Earth and Time and all, if you chose."

Hey ... "The Island" == "The Land Is" !!!

Hopefully, this means that a Covenant movie is now more possible!!!

[wayfriend]

Just for fun, I googled if someone had thought of this before. Someone had.

Enter a mysterious world of unspoiled richness and spiritual purity: The Land. Our hero is a physically ravaged and broken, yet enormously stubborn man of the everyday 'real' world. He finds himself, through circumstances he does not understand, transported to this magical and verdant place. A sickness that had previously defined his existence and isolated him from any modicum of happiness is, in this new land, completely healed. He is awed by the lore and wisdom of the land's inhabitants, yet that awe is dwarfed by discomfort, as the land's people are convinced that our hero is a prophesied savior upon whom the fate of the land depends, a notion he finds ridiculous. The land is troubled by a sort of 'dark lord' who thrives upon the defilement of the land's spirit. The corrupt servants of the dark lord were not always so, but succumbed to his will by means of arrogance and temptation. The dark lord's highest wish? To escape the land.

Now class, can anyone who has watched 'Lost' for these 5 13/18 seasons note a parallel between the above story and the narratives of 'Lost'? The foregoing was a brutal and brief summation of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever.

Covenant, in our world, is a leper. His disease has robbed him of any sense of touch, and thus pain, forcing him to constantly repeat a fixed regimen of 'VSE'--visual surveillance of extremities--to ensure he does not mortally injure his already corrupted body in the course of everyday life. He loses consciousness in our world and wakes up--healed of leprosy--in a place simply called 'the Land'. The land is peopled by a collection of races (giants, goblins, etc) familiar to readers of Tolkien-influenced literature. The humans of the land are a pre-scientific society whose lives are immersed in a sort of nature-religion absent any particular deity, and to a greater or lesser degree all wield an earth-derived magic. Repeated magic ritual constitutes daily life, and performing mundane daily tasks using machinery or overly complex tools instead of magic is seen as abomination.

The inherent magic of the Land seduces Covenant into (in someone else's words) believing it to be 'not just an island!' while simultaneously goading his skepticism and bitterness regarding the truth of such a sensual place. After all, he has survived his adult life only by rigorously denying and mistrusting feeling. Covenant oscillates between 'Jack-like' and 'Locke-like' poles of belief and unbelief.

Arrayed against the land, wishing only to desecrate its nature and people, is ghoulish Lord Foul, the Despiser. Covenant is not only healed by the Land, but hailed by its people as a prophesied savior, possessor of unique powers that will be the key to defeating Lord Foul. Foul's contention though, is that through manipulation and intimidation, he will force Covenant to use his Land-bestowed power to sicken rather than save. The psychological drama of the series draws from Covenant's attempts to escape the clutches of either a benevolent (assuming the role of the Land's savior) or fiendish (succumbing to Foul's manipulations)destiny and find a way to retain his autonomy without denying the land's reality for the benefit of Foul.

The prime enemy of both Covenant sequences, Foul is also the entity responsible for bringing Covenant to the Land. Though he is a demigod-like being, he cannot achieve his final goal--***escape*** from the bounds of the land--until he utterly corrupts (claims?) Covenant. Foul works by humiliating the prideful, turning hope to spite, and manipulating the naive into desecrating what they'd formerly thought holy. The portrayal of 'evil' in such emotionally familiar terms, rather than black capes and dark castles elevate the Covenant sequence above cosmetically similar fantasies content with only costume metaphysics.

There are other books more apt for complementing the time-travel, multiple dimension aspect of 'Lost', but the Covenant sequence is a fantastic read for those touched by the heroism, foolishness, tragedy,and redemption all embodied in John Locke, surely the most original creation of the 'Lost' writers, regardless of how (un)fulfilling the finale turns out to be.

Discussing the end of the Chronicles in an attempt to reason out the possible conclusion of 'Lost' just isn't possible without spoiling the 'Chronicles', something I just can't do.

[I'm Murrin]

I'm willing to let the majority of the stuff left unanswered lie, it wasn't significant enough to the actual story to matter. But there is one rather big thing the writers really failed on. They never followed up on the idea of being infected, that Sayid and Claire were both so, and that it would spread. It's a big failing because they spent most of the first part of the season focused on it, but then dropped the issue once the Locke versus Jacob angle was laid out. They needed to explain why Claire could just go home, no problem, for that ending to work.

[Zarathustra]

Murrin, good point. I understand the opinion that "it's about the characters, not the mystery." (Well, kind of ... it's impossible to say that the mysteries weren't also a large part of the show.) I said something similar myself when Ben had his "he's the only one who will have me" scene. I said I didn't care if they answered all the questions if they kept giving us character moments like that.

But the questions you point out--like several I pointed out above--deal with the characters themselves. It's not just the mythology that isn't resolved, but also the reasons the characters behaved the way they did.

And there are problems of story telling. There is a difference between mystery and outright lying to your audience. The alternate reality could have been hinted at in any season, any time, since the purgatory fantasy was timeless. But the writers gave it to us right after the Incident, making it look like it was caused by Jughead. And this extremely detailed fantasy included an underwater view of the sunken island--a view that none of the characters saw, and of which they were unaware. What would be the purpose of these dead people jointly creating a reality with a sunken Lost Island that they never see or know? None whatsoever. It was entirely for the audience. Pure contrived misdirection.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

I don't think the entire flash-sideways world was created by the islanders as an afterlife. I mean, if it IS the land of the dead, then what, Juliet and Jack have an undead son there? This show has a lot of conceptual physics underwriting it. One interpretation of quantum mechanics is that every possible choice for a particle's position in space is real at some parallel world. When Juliet said, "It worked," she meant that the detonation had caused a quantum branching of some kind to take place so that a universe was created in which Flight 815 didn't crash. But like with what happened to Desmond when he used the fail-safe key, the kind of power involved in this branching (nuking the island's light) allowed for the consciousness of the people in the different worlds to be set free from its ordinary temporal constraints.

"Moving on" was escaping those constraints in their entirety, maybe.

—As for Christian Shepard and what Jack says to him about how, "I died, too," well, I could just as easily (if not more so) believe that Christian was resurrected in the other universe as that the entire other reality was mystically generated by the islanders.

[lucimay]

well i'm kinda weepy. everytime someone "remembered" i wept. (i'm a weeper from way back! lol)

for weepy factor i give the finale a 10
for wrapping up a six year series...meh.
i mean, i enjoyed the entire story a lot and i'll
definitely watch the whole thing thru again now
that it's finished.
but yeah, it's a long way from complete.

love the chrons correlations wayfriend.

[dANdeLION]

well i'm kinda weepy. everytime someone "remembered" i wept. (i'm a weeper from way back! lol)

for weepy factor i give the finale a 10

Ahh, that explains why you thought Null's recycled 'Gilligan's Island' post was funny. I mean, sure, it was semi-cute in 2005, but now it's just oooooooolllllllldddddddddd.

[Zahir]

First--love the Chronicles analogies! Something similar occurred to me, with the island's Light being a combo of Wild Magic and Earthblood, kinda sorta.

Second--methinks the series made it clear what the Sideways timeline was. It was a timeless place for these people to work out some issues, heal from their time and tribulations on Earth, find each other again before moving on to what-ever-it-is that is Beyond. I was terribly moved to see that Ben decided to stay for awhile, with those that weren't ready (like Ana Lucia). I was reminded of the Boddisatva--the Buddha of Infinite Compassion who has achieved Enlightenment but refuses Nirvana, for now. Instead he turns to the rest of creation and says "You first--I will not leave the least of you alone." Well, that and Severus Snape--unhappy boy, bitter and ruthless man, loser at love who had the courage to change, and did.

Which brings up a bit of speculation on my part. The Valenzetti Equation. Remember that? Remember how the DHARMA Initiative was created to save humanity from that terrible mathematical prediction of doomsday? DHARMA failed. But do you suppose Ben and Hurley might manage to do it, especially with the powers of the Island at their disposal? Methinks Hurley was a far better choice of Protector than Jacob ever could be. Hurley had lived among humanity, had loved and failed and his kindness was not academic.

It also seems oh-so-fitting that the MIB had no name. After all, darkness is really just the absence of light.

All about the journey, and the people who make that journey.

[Zahir]

Why did MiB turn into a smoke monster when he went down the hole, but Jack and Hume did not?

Because of who he was and how he came to be there, as opposed to who they were and why they had come.

IMHO.

[Akasri]

Yep, there are still a couple of unanswered questions:

www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291



As for why Desmond/Jack didn't turn into the smoke monster when they went down the hole... my guess is that the smoke monster was living in there and the MiB got possessed by him when he went in. Later, Desmond didn't get possessed because at that time smokey was still in Locke. And Jack didn't get possessed because smokey was dead by then.

[wayfriend]

"Good for the heart, bad for the brain". Someone else said that first, but I like how it sums up my feelings.

I feel sure that the writers preferred that everyone hate the ending for leaving questions unanswered over everyone hating the ending because the answers were lame. This way, the series sort of lives on, in that everyone can speculate what the answers might have been. Some of the joy - the joy of the mystery - remains. Answers are nice, but then when you have them, the series stops being alive, it doesn't tweak your curiosity anymore, it's dead.

[Zarathustra]

I feel sure that the writers preferred that everyone hate the ending for leaving questions unanswered over everyone hating the ending because the answers were lame.

I like that. Of course, they could have avoided both by having non-lame answers.

This way, the series sort of lives on, in that everyone can speculate what the answers might have been. Some of the joy - the joy of the mystery - remains. Answers are nice, but then when you have them, the series stops being alive, it doesn't tweak your curiosity anymore, it's dead.

That's certainly a valid opinion. It's not an opinion I can accept, but there are millions of Lost fans who agee with you.

I think there's something to be said for the BIG mysteries to be left untold, like the philosophical and/or mythological mysteries. For instance, what's the light? I don't need to know.

But why couldn't pregnant women survive on the island? It's absolutely essential to the plot. Seasons 1-3 make no sense without this explanation. Would it really kill the series to know the answer to that question? I don't see how. If that's the case, then all the answers we've been given--like who murdered Sawyer's parents--contributed to "killing" the series.

I think something happened to change the writers' minds. Maybe they realized that their answers were lame. But at Comic-Con 2008(?), Carlton and Damon promised that they were going to reveal the contents of a lock box, which contained their original outline of the show, in order to prove that they weren't making it all up as they went. They promised to do this on Kimmel the night of the finale. Well ... they didn't. Something changed.

In fact, all of season 6 feels like they changed their minds about the direction of the end. My personal theory is that the audience figured out what was going on, and they couldn't stand that someone guessed the ending. Carlton and Damon were obsessive about reading audience reactions on the Internet. They admitted that they killed off Nickie and Palo because the audience didn't like them. They said that getting off the island in seasons 4-5 was mapped out from the beginning in order to fuck with the audience, because they knew everyone was expecting that getting off the island would be The End. So everything they've done has been hyper-conscious of people's expectations. So I believe they changed their minds at the "last minute" (possibly during season 5), because they couldn't stand for someone to have guessed the end. That's my theory.

[ParanoiA]

Ok, well I've been following this thread for months, to help put the pieces together from week to week.

Personally, I loved the finale, the whole battle between Locke and Jack was great, the closing of the eye to end the series. I even kind of like the dead afterlife flash sideways mess - gives us a way to have a "happily ever after" ending for our characters, while we simulataneously have a tragic ending for the island side of the story. I like the way they wrapped it up, overall.

In terms of answers though, I think the writers screwed us. Mysteries are great when there's ultimately answers to them - otherwise, they are just made up bullshit without any value. It's the premise that there's an explanation that drives the mystery into a plot, and makes it so much fun to theorize about, and keeps interest.

We didn't get an explanation on pregnant women dying on the island. We didn't get an explanation on Hurly's numbers - which are used too much to pretend as if they matter very little.

We don't really know what the smoke monster was, really. I mean, it's just mythological questions being answered with more mythology - superpower mom with superpower kiddos that can pass on their superpowers with a drink of dirty water.

I think most of it is a cop out. And I'm highly disappointed that I wasted so much time trying to tie things together that didn't have anything to tie to. Part of the reason we didn't predict such a narrower, smaller core island story is that we thought all of this other shit was going to have to fit with it, and make some sense.

Well hell, if I'd known I didn't need to worry about dying pregnant women, magical numbers and the "affliction", then I could have scaled back my expectations for a smaller MIB story.

Ah well, it was still a masterpiece of character development. The sheer size and scope is just so impressive. A big win for those of us into serial programs over episodal ones too.

[I'm Murrin]

The explanation they've given so far is that they made the finale they wanted to make, and when it came to all the unanswered questions, if they felt like they were changing the episodes just to give an answer and not because it felt like the characters needed to do it, then they just left it out.

The specific example was the outrigger shootout - they say they knew from season 5 who was in the other boat, but when it came to writing it in season 6 they felt like they were planning a whole episode around forcing those people into that situation, so in the end they cut it and left it unanswered.

Which I guess is a problem stemming from knowing the answers to questions, but not accounting them when planning out their storylines.

[Vraith]

So everything they've done has been hyper-conscious of people's expectations. So I believe they changed their minds at the "last minute" (possibly during season 5), because they couldn't stand for someone to have guessed the end. That's my theory.

At first I was like, "nah,"...but I'm coming around to your view.
I had a whole theory/speculation list tying numbers/physics/sound [Hurley/Desmond/Faraday primarily, and I mostly started on it because, besides myth and monuments, the ancient egyptians were scientists, invented lots of math, and IIRC, the first to have melodic music integral to culture as a whole]: really important things, then vanished....right about that time, too.