In other words, in the previous Chrons I felt an organic connection between the world, its (powerful or less so) inhabitants and story. In the Last Chrons, one after another player is yanked on stage while, - to me -, their connection to the Land, its history, and its people, is often strenuous.
Do you maybe mean, "tenuous"?
Anyway, I felt that way in TOT about the whole Brathairrealm sequence. It really didn't connect to the rest of the story, even if it was necessary to explain how TC gets his mind back, leads to the rest of Linden's backstory, and introduces Nom who is crucial in WGW. It reminded me of a line from Monty Python when the show switched skits: "And now for something totally diferent."
In the Second Chronicles, you've got Vain, Sunder, Brinn, Nom, Findail, Picthwife - all great characters.
We also had the Sunbane which was a danger of immense proportions and it all but overwhelms the first two parts of TWL. One lack I find in the Last Chrons is the lack of clear and present danger. Just what the heck is Foul up to?
Tenuous, yes. Thank you.
If I recall correctly the Sandgorgons were briefly mentioned in the First Chrons. And the fact that in TOT they went outside of the Land made the shift to all the places they visited less jarring.
Agreed on the Sunbane!
It seems that a timebomb (Worm) was activated at the end of FR.
Hey everyone. You do realize (I'm sure) there are several threads both in the AATE forum and also the FR forum where this discussion really should be going? By posting it in this thread you're limiting the amount of input you're going to get from fellow members. And it's not on topic. Can we keep on topic please. Thanks.
Seareach wrote:Hey everyone. You do realize (I'm sure) there are several threads both in the AATE forum and also the FR forum where this discussion really should be going? By posting it in this thread you're limiting the amount of input you're going to get from fellow members. And it's not on topic. Can we keep on topic please. Thanks.
You are absolutely right. I guess I was getting impatient while waiting for spoilerish updates on the travails of Linden and company.
I thought I mentioned ... he held the Krill in the Lost Deep to attack his son ... he was trying to cut off Kastenessen's hand grafted to Roger!! Also the Krill is effective against the Croyel - but killing it that way would also kill Jeremiah. The Krill is now in the hands of a Humbled who uses it to keep the Croyel under control.
Our band is now outside, having won free of the Lost Deep - scroll back for those spoilers!
In the section I just finished ... Linden tried using the staff of law and then white gold to free Jeremiah! Unfortunately the end result was Spoiler
Liand's death
!! Apparently the most effective weapon against the Croyel was Liand holding the Orcrest and the "test of truth". But Anele was let down on sand and taken over by Kastenessen!! Needless to say ... chaos ensued! I finished the chapter with Anele being knocked off his feet eliminating Kastenessen as a threat! But the white gold use has draw attention to our band and Linden is now fighting Caesures and other problems!
I thought I mentioned ... he held the Krill in the Lost Deep to attack his son ... he was trying to cut off Kastenessen's hand grafted to Roger!! Also the Krill is effective against the Croyel - but killing it that way would also kill Jeremiah. The Krill is now in the hands of a Humbled who uses it to keep the Croyel under control.
Our band is now outside, having won free of the Lost Deep - scroll back for those spoilers!
In the section I just finished ... Linden tried using the staff of law and then white gold to free Jeremiah! Unfortunately the end result was Spoiler
Liand's death
!! Apparently the most effective weapon against the Croyel was Liand holding the Orcrest and the "test of truth". But Anele was let down on sand and taken over by Kastenessen!! Needless to say ... chaos ensued! I finished the chapter with Anele being knocked off his feet eliminating Kastenessen as a threat! But the white gold use has draw attention to our band and Linden is now fighting Caesures and other problems!
More later!
So our heroes cannot unplug the croyel? They're going to need an Elohim for that...
I thought I mentioned ... he held the Krill in the Lost Deep to attack his son ... he was trying to cut off Kastenessen's hand grafted to Roger!! Also the Krill is effective against the Croyel - but killing it that way would also kill Jeremiah. The Krill is now in the hands of a Humbled who uses it to keep the Croyel under control.
Our band is now outside, having won free of the Lost Deep - scroll back for those spoilers!
In the section I just finished ... Linden tried using the staff of law and then white gold to free Jeremiah! Unfortunately the end result was Spoiler
Liand's death
!! Apparently the most effective weapon against the Croyel was Liand holding the Orcrest and the "test of truth". But Anele was let down on sand and taken over by Kastenessen!! Needless to say ... chaos ensued! I finished the chapter with Anele being knocked off his feet eliminating Kastenessen as a threat! But the white gold use has draw attention to our band and Linden is now fighting Caesures and other problems!
More later!
So our heroes cannot unplug the croyel? I guess they're going to need an Elohim for that...but an Elohim would probably not free a child that will pay back with an irresistible prison...unless that child's death is guaranteed. Also, a Humbled wielding a weapon is totally unexpected!
Last edited by shinnok on Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A small digression if you don't mind. All this action to separate the Croyel, brought up memories of the Second Chrons. I loved the Croyel and Kasreyn, but when the Croyel showed up a little later with the Arguleh I felt disappointed. The same device again, so soon? Therefore the reveal of the Croyel in FR carried a little less impact for me than if the Croyel had not controlled the Arguleh. Where were the Ravers?
Hiro wrote:A small digression if you don't mind. All this action to separate the Croyel, brought up memories of the Second Chrons. I loved the Croyel and Kasreyn, but when the Croyel showed up a little later with the Arguleh I felt disappointed. The same device again, so soon? Therefore the reveal of the Croyel in FR carried a little less impact for me than if the Croyel had not controlled the Arguleh. Where were the Ravers?
I would like to know more about them - like why are they do damned evil, and how they got so powerful. Kasreyn and the Arguleh both sought out the Croyel, so it's going to be interesting to see whether or not the child's a willing participant in the union, and why the Despiser used one instead of a Raver. It's a great question - why not use a Raver? Perhaps due to the child's mental challenges, he felt a more physical possession was in order. Madadeva, have you read any insights into this?
Hiro wrote:A small digression if you don't mind. All this action to separate the Croyel, brought up memories of the Second Chrons. I loved the Croyel and Kasreyn, but when the Croyel showed up a little later with the Arguleh I felt disappointed. The same device again, so soon? Therefore the reveal of the Croyel in FR carried a little less impact for me than if the Croyel had not controlled the Arguleh. Where were the Ravers?
I would like to know more about them - like why are they do damned evil, and how they got so powerful. Kasreyn and the Arguleh both sought out the Croyel, so it's going to be interesting to see whether or not the child's a willing participant in the union, and why the Despiser used one instead of a Raver. It's a great question - why not use a Raver? Perhaps due to the child's mental challenges, he felt a more physical possession was in order. Madadeva, have you read any insights into this?
I meant the Ravers for controlling the Arguleh as well. The difference is like you said, not so clear to me either.
I don't know why the Croyel vs. a Raver. My assumption is that the Croyel has magics that the Ravers lack. Also, the last two Croyel we have seen were defeated along with their hosts ... with Jeremiah, the goal is to extricate him.
MASSIVE SPOILERS FOLLOW!
One of the best scenes of the Book is an awesome battle between our band and cavewrights sent by Roger! Gault, the humbled (and Stave's SON!) gives his life to protect Jeremiah! It is during this battle that Anele comes into his own ... and with the orcrest ... he gives his earthpower gift to Jerimiah!! This sends a fire of earthpower through the Croyel - destroying it! Jerimaiah is freed; but still not in possession of his mind. As the battle engages further Anele is fatally injured and Esmer appears! Linden, about to use white gold is blocked! But then, the demodim-spawn appear and use their manacles to trap Esmer!! At ones he is quieted and his influence disappears. Released from his effects, Linden wields wild magic to destroy all the cavewrights attacking ... and Roger retreats. Esmer cowerd begs for release ... and Stave using the Krill kills Cail's son! Esmer is no more!! And of our band, Anele and Gault joins Liand in death. [This is my favorite part of the book]
After a bit, the band splits - Covenant goes with the humbled to find Joan taking the Krill with him. The rest go to where the Ranyhyn chose to lead (since noone of the band knows where to go.)
The Ranyhyn take them to a bone grave yard (leaving the giants to follow-up since they could not match the speed of the great horses.) At the graveyard, Jerimiah creates his ultimate construct out of bones. There Infelice interferes. She claims that Jeremiah will eternally trap all Elohim and that she will not allow. She also lets all know that the Despiser wants Jeremiah to trap the Creator ... and with him all creation!! But her efforts are thwarted by the party. At the last momement Linden throws Jerimiah his restored racecar. As it is added to his construct it is completed. With a flash of power the Elohim are trapped. Infelice is gone. And Jeremiah's mind is restored to him! [This is my second favorite part.]
As to Covenant his works his way to Joan. And against all odds, and with the help of the Ranyhyn ... plunges Loric's Krill into Joan's chest. Joan is dead (and the Raver flees) and Covenant claims her white gold ring.
However, the Worm of the World's end is appoaching the Land.
This summary does scant justice to the last half of the book. But I am on Vacation now!
I will re-read when released in October.
Last thoughts... a theme of the Joan encounter was her feeling betrayed by Covenant's Leprosy. I continue to wonder if she-who-must-not-be-named, the bane who suffered the 'first betrayal' is Joan ... or an echo of her spirit! And that Foul - the first betrayer - is not Covenant's leprosy by another name.
He/She who dies with the most toys wins! Wait a minute ... I can't die!!!
You haven't spoiled it at all, just wet our appetites. I thought the Manacles were for Despite or the mad Elohim...totally unpredictable! Q: is Kastenessen trapped along with Infelice? Also, if the Stonedowner is dead, it means there will be no New Lords after it's all done...I have to add that the sight of the three half-hands (Covenant and the two Humbled) going after Joan is a symbolic return to (and payback) for the three Bloodguard that were maimed in the same fashion after finding a fragment of the Illearth Stone. Very nice tribute to a dark day in the Land's history.
Creator wrote:Last thoughts... a theme of the Joan encounter was her feeling betrayed by Covenant's Leprosy. I continue to wonder if she-who-must-not-be-named, the bane who suffered the 'first betrayal' is Joan ... or an echo of her spirit! And that Foul - the first betrayer - is not Covenant's leprosy by another name.
Yes, that's an interesting observation and something that crossed my mind.
Oh, and I've sent you a pm regarding something else you said. I sent it to your Creator account so make sure you log in as that and check it out.
Creator wrote:Last thoughts... a theme of the Joan encounter was her feeling betrayed by Covenant's Leprosy. I continue to wonder if she-who-must-not-be-named, the bane who suffered the 'first betrayal' is Joan ... or an echo of her spirit! And that Foul - the first betrayer - is not Covenant's leprosy by another name.
Yes, that's an interesting observation and something that crossed my mind.
Oh, and I've sent you a pm regarding something else you said. I sent it to your Creator account so make sure you log in as that and check it out.
A clue to the identity of she-who-must-not-be-named can be found in the conversation between Roger (disguised as TC) and Linden in the chapter "Interference" (I think) in FR. Think Kastenessen and merewives.
I believe the Elohim's lover is one of the women absorbed in she-who-must-not-be-named. But the text, IIRC seems to state that Lord Foul is the first betrayer.
He/She who dies with the most toys wins! Wait a minute ... I can't die!!!
Creator wrote:I believe the Elohim's lover is one of the women absorbed in she-who-must-not-be-named. But the text, IIRC seems to state that Lord Foul is the first betrayer.
Can this have anything to do with the Clave creation story?
Creator wrote:Last thoughts... a theme of the Joan encounter was her feeling betrayed by Covenant's Leprosy. I continue to wonder if she-who-must-not-be-named, the bane who suffered the 'first betrayal' is Joan ... or an echo of her spirit! And that Foul - the first betrayer - is not Covenant's leprosy by another name.
Yes, that's an interesting observation and something that crossed my mind.
Oh, and I've sent you a pm regarding something else you said. I sent it to your Creator account so make sure you log in as that and check it out.
A clue to the identity of she-who-must-not-be-named can be found in the conversation between Roger (disguised as TC) and Linden in the chapter "Interference" (I think) in FR. Think Kastenessen and merewives.
It's actually in the chapter after "Interference", on p.188 of the Gollancz edition.
Speculation on croyel vs Ravers: There are only three Ravers while (presumably) quite a few croyel. Foul saves the Ravers for truly big jobs. Also, the Ravers are capable of independent ambitions, while we haven't seen that the croyel have such human attitudes. Finally, Linden would perceive a Raver, while the croyel are completely invisible to her health-sense.
Question: When we last saw Jeremiah under Melenkurion Skyweir, he was in bad shape physically, with an unhealed gunshot wound. Is this addressed? How has he survived? Is Linden able to heal him?
You do realize (I'm sure) there are several threads both in the AATE forum and also the FR forum where this discussion really should be going? By posting it in this thread you're limiting the amount of input you're going to get from fellow members. And it's not on topic. Can we keep on topic please. Thanks. 
Apparently the most effective weapon against the Croyel was Liand holding the Orcrest and the "test of truth". But Anele was let down on sand and taken over by Kastenessen!! Needless to say ... chaos ensued! I finished the chapter with Anele being knocked off his feet eliminating Kastenessen as a threat! But the white gold use has draw attention to our band and Linden is now fighting Caesures and other problems!