Mosque at Ground Zero

[Ki]

So I'm guessing we're all ok with Boy Scouts using public schools after hours for meetings again? What about the Ten Commandments? If it's a local issue, what's the big deal if a school in Alabama wants to have the Ten Commandments hanging in their school if nearly all the students are Christians, right?

[Zarathustra]

Z, you made that up about the prayer rooms. No way do I believe that, the ACLU would be there in a flash, they look for that type of stuff. Christians have trouble praying in the school, after school hours, no way would there be tax funded prayer rooms.

You really think I'd make that up?

Robert Bobb, special manager for the sinking (and stinking) Detroit Public Schools, is quoted in this article in Arab American News as saying that the Cleveland School in Detroit,
"which is now Detroit International Academy, made changes to accommodate Muslim students from diet and dress code perspectives and also had prayer rooms as well, which is a model that can be applied to future schools if need be."

QTP queries,"Doesn't the 'P' in Detroit Public Schools stand for public? Special diet, dress codes and prayer rooms to accommodate Muslim students in the American taxpayer-funded public schools?

link

It was another high school in the same area, apparently, but it's true. Time to start believing.

You clearly want to make it seem like I have a blanket policy that anything any Muslims want to do is A-Ok with me, because I'm a liberal. But you are lying when you say that.

Where did that come from? I never said you have a blanket policy that anything any Muslim does is okay with you. I have said that liberals take up for Muslims. Is that not true?

Isn't that what you are accusing the Muslims of doing, Z? Mixing religion and sports.

No, that's not what I'm accusing Muslims of doing. I'm saying that they are mixing religion with public school. The man in question, the subject of your bolded sections, was a volunteer assistant coach ... one of the parents of the student wrestlers. He wasn't a tax-payer paid government employee. He was a parent with free speech rights. Perhaps it was inappropriate for him to be spreading his beliefs (if that's actually true--the other side claims it wasn't), and I'd be pissed if a parent of one of my son's schoolmates tried to convert my son to Christianity ... but that's not the same as a principal of a school firing the coach over his religion and punching students for converting.

The assistant coach, a Christian evangelical pastor who was accused of using his position to try to convert Muslim students, had been ordered by Fadlallah not to associate with the team.

How the hell can a principal order a parent to stay away from his son's team??

No one answered my hypothetical question about how they'd feel if this school was producing Islamic terrorists ...

[Zarathustra]

Update for Damelon:

Hancock insisted that he never attempted a conversion as part of his work with the wrestling team, or on school grounds. But when asked if he understood the concerns of Muslim parents, he said, “I consider it my work to pastor to anyone who is within my reach. So I can imagine they would be concerned. But is the Dearborn Public Schools going to be dictating what every pastor can or cannot do within his congregation?”

Marszalek says he was aware for 10 years that Hancock’s activities “might be a problem,” but the clergyman never discussed religion with the athletes or students in his presence.

“The principal has never, ever attended a practice or a wrestling meet,” Marszalek said. “But he makes judgments on the team according to which Arabic parent complains about another parent, who is a Christian minister, and I get lumped in.”

link

And this:

The principal was particularly upset when an assistant coach of Marszalek, Protestant minister Rev. Trey Hancock, held a summer wrestling camp at which a Muslim camper converted to Christianity.

The camp was not connected with either the school or Coach Marszalek.

...

Dearborn is one of the most densely populated Muslim communities in the United States, with about 30,000 of its 98,000 residents being Muslim. An estimated 80 percent of students at Fordson High School are Arabic and mostly Muslim.

The Law Center argues that Principal Fadlallah sees Fordson as a Muslim school both in students and in faculty.

The principal ordered Coach Marszalek to ban assistant coach Hancock, a volunteer, from the high school and all wrestling events. The assistant’s son was an All State wrestler on the team, allegedly making the order impossible to enforce.

He also ordered that Hancock’s son was not to be acknowledged at wrestling meets and barred the Hancock family from helping out at school concession stands during events.

link

This arrogant prick of a principal actually ordered that the son was to not be acknowledged at wrestling meets. A kid who did nothing wrong. One of this principal's students whom he's supposed to serve. And just make the point clear, this shunning was applied to the whole damn family. [Which probably explains why the nonmuslim students on the football team "didn't have a problem" with the Muslim schedule ... they didn't want the principle to order everyone to shun them and their family, either.]




And before any of you get the impression this is an isolated problem, it's not just Michigan:

More islamic indoctrination in public schools, this time in Texas. Here’s a video from the local news there. The good news – one student said no one was paying attention. The bad news, CAIR infiltrated the school on the last day of class without parents knowing it, and sadly no one is paying attention the continued threat of creeping sharia either. The principal (email addy) told students her niece, nephew, and sister were Muslims.

Update: Principal violated school policy and orders by Superintendent

BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS
Texas children roped into Islamic training
Class by CAIR teaches: ‘There is one god, Allah’
Posted: May 30, 2008 -1:00 am Eastern

By Bob Unruh © 2008 WorldNetDaily

Friendswood Junior High

Public school students at Friendswood Junior High in the Houston area have been roped into Islamic training by representatives from the Council on American-Islamic Relations during class time, prompting religious leaders to protest over Principal Robin Lowe’s actions.

Pastor Dave Welch, spokesman for the Houston Area Pastor Council, confirmed the indoctrination had taken place and called it “unacceptable.”

“The failure of the principal of Friendswood Junior High to respect simple procedures requiring parental notification for such a potentially controversial subject, to not only approve but participate personally in a religious indoctrination session led by representatives of a group with well-known links to terrorist organizations and her cavalier response when confronted, raises serious questions about her fitness to serve in that role,” the pastors’ organization said.

According to a parent, whose name was withheld, the children were given the Islamic indoctrination during time that was supposed to be used for a physical education class.

“I am simply trying to get the word out to those whose kids may not have told them about an Islamic presentation that all kids were required to attend,” wrote the parent, who was working to assemble protests to the school board.

WND previously has reported how public school textbooks used across the nation have begun promoting Islam, teaching even the religious doctrines.

WND also has reported on several other schools that have taught Islam as a required subject.

In the Texas case, a school e-mail to parents provided only a half-hearted acknowledgement that such mandatory religious indoctrination might not have been the best decision.

“In hindsight, a note should have been sent home to parents indicating the purpose and content of the presentation in time for parents to contact me with questions or concerns or requests to exempt their child,” the school note from Lowe said. “This will be our practice in the future, should we ever have another presentation of a similar nature.”

School officials also said the “Islamic Awareness” presentation was “to increase understanding of the Islamic culture in response to racially motivated comments that have been made to students on campus.”

The pastors said in a statement: “According to students who were forced to attend these sessions, these Islamic evangelists taught them:

* Adam, Noah and Jesus are prophets

* There is one god, his name is Allah

* The 5 Pillars of Islam

* How to pray five times a day

* Islamic religious garb”

The pastors noted that the principal’s claim there were “comments” to students on campus was unverified. Nor does that excuse or justify “this infringement upon the religious beliefs of students and parents of the community nor the violation of school policy and possibly state and/or federal law,” they said.

“We do not believe that this unapproved action by Principal Robin Lowe represents the school district and certainly not the majority of students or parents in the Friendswood community. Our commitment is to support all appropriate administrative, legal and political remedies to assure that this will not happen again and these Islamic activist organizations are kept out of our schools,” the pastors said.

The parent reported the presentation was 30 to 40 minutes long and handled by two Muslim women from CAIR’s Houston office. CAIR, as WND has reported, is spinoff of the defunct Islamic Association for Palestine, launched by Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzook and former university professor Sami al-Arian, who pleaded guilty to conspiracy to provide services to Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

Among the convicted CAIR staffers are former communications specialist Randall Todd “Ismail” Royer, who was sentenced to 20 years in prison on charges he trained in Virginia for holy war against the U.S. and sent several members to Pakistan to join a Kashmiri terrorist group with reported ties to al-Qaida; and Bassem Khafagi, who was arrested in January 2003 while serving as CAIR’s director of community relations and convicted on fraud and terrorism charges in connection with a probe of the Islamic Assembly of North America, an organization suspected of aiding Saudi sheiks tied to Osama bin Laden. In October 2006, Ghassan Elashi, a member of the founding board of directors of the Texas branch of CAIR, was sentenced to nearly seven years in prison for financial ties to a high-ranking terrorist.

The parent reported Lowe told students her sister, niece and nephew were Muslim.

But the parent complained the Muslims “were given full attention of our kids, during academic school time, to present their religious beliefs. … This was put right at the end of the school year … which will most likely prevent a Christian response.”

There also was no parental notification, and students were required to attend.

“The kids did not even know they were having an assembly or what topic it pertained to until they entered the gym,” the parent wrote. “I send my kids to school for academics. … I teach them religion at home.”

link

This wasn't a religion class. The kids were pulled out of classes in order to be indoctrinated by CAIR, a group with ties to Hamas.

If you all really think that there is not an intellectual/cultural jihad happening right now, right here in America, I urge you to do a little research. I'd even suggest you open your eyes.

[Ki]

Opponents of this project say Ground Zero is hallowed ground. I would think that's hardly the place for a strip club. Maybe we should run *them* out, too....

We are at war with radical Islam and, again, you really should refer to the writings of this imam behind the building of this mosque. I think it interesting you should refer to this movement to stop the building of this mosque as running them out since no one is trying to run out other mosques nearby. Doesn't that make you stop to think why that is. And another thing about the strip clubs that ought to make you stop to think, wouldn't a mosque be even more sacred (or at least as sacred) as Ground Zero? Why would Muslims want to have their mosque built so closely to a strip club? I bet lots of mosques are built near strip clubs. Bet that's a big hit. I've heard this strip club argument on something like the Today Show and proponents of the mosque are going to have to come up with a better argument than this one. Or at least give it a little more thought next time.

[Fist and Faith]

So I'm guessing we're all ok with Boy Scouts using public schools after hours for meetings again?

I couldn't care less. It doesn't cost the taxpayers anything. (OK, it may cost a few dollars in electricity, and maybe a school official needs to be on grounds. So any after hours activity that isn't a school activity should come with a fee.) Why is this a problem? Is it a way of saying that the school is a Christian school? Is it forcing other students to listen to, or repeat, prayers?

What about the Ten Commandments? If it's a local issue, what's the big deal if a school in Alabama wants to have the Ten Commandments hanging in their school if nearly all the students are Christians, right?

Wrong. It's a big deal if they do that, while forbidding other religions to do something equivalent.

But, any of that is taking things too far. Just because it shouldn't be forbidden to express a religious thought while in a public school, as long as it's not only some people's religious thoughts that can be expressed, doesn't mean public schools should be a showcase for religious thoughts.

[Fist and Faith]

You clearly want to make it seem like I have a blanket policy that anything any Muslims want to do is A-Ok with me, because I'm a liberal. But you are lying when you say that.

Where did that come from? I never said you have a blanket policy that anything any Muslim does is okay with you. I have said that liberals take up for Muslims. Is that not true?

The liberals you are speaking to here do not "take up" for Muslims. We have said that this specific incident is not a problem. A particular religion has an important event that would conflict with football practice for one particular week. An unusual solution was offered. All were asked if the solution is acceptable. Nothing indicates that anyone objected. Nothing indicates that anyone was threatened, bullied, or pressured in any way. It happened during summer vacation (it's still summer vacation there), so there were no worries about it interfering with anybody's education.

In response, you have changed that into "liberals take up for Muslims." We are not. We are saying this particular incident isn't a problem. You have changed that into "defending this Muslimized public school." We are not. We are saying this particular incident isn't a problem. You are sure we would have no problem with this school producing Islamic terrorists. We would, and I find it dispicable that you would suggest we would not. "No, I don't see a problem with these football practices, given how it all happened." "Oh! So then it's okay to force all human beings to become Muslims and throw acid in all girls' faces?!?" What kind of pathetic tactic is this?


On varioius other issues, it looks to me like this school needs to get an overhaul. The principle, at least, should be in jail. The administration should be forced to attend classes that teach what it means to not establish an official religion, and what kinds of things are attempts to do so. And, for at least a while, some state or federal official should be there all the time to keep an eye on things.

[SerScot]

Zarathustra,

Do you have any reports from websites other than "Catholic News Agency" and "CreepingSharia.com"? My thought is that they may be a tad biased against Islam. If things are as blatant as they are alleging I'm suprised the ACLU hasn't gone after these schools and these districts.

[Zarathustra]

You are sure we would have no problem with this school producing Islamic terrorists. We would, and I find it dispicable that you would suggest we would not.

Whoa, slow down there. Are you about to blow a gasket? Listen, you're going to have to stop putting words in my mouth. I asked a question. That's it. I did not suggest what you're claiming I suggested.

What kind of pathetic tactic is this?

One you fabricated to make me look bad. An apology would be nice.

My question about whether people here would finally admit this high school had a problem if it was producing Islamic terrorist was a set-up for this:

August 10, 2006, - 12:17 am

All-American Terrorists: How Dearbornistan Boys Went From Football Field to Islamic Terror; TracFone Detonators & Passenger Lists

By Debbie Schlussel

In 2003, [Ali Houssaiky of Dearborn, Michigan,] was an Honorable Mention on the Michigan Class-A All-State Football Team. The Fordson High School Football Team he co-captained was hailed in USA Today for its observance of Ramadan fasting. In 2004, he got a full scholarship to play football at Grand Valley State University. And now in 2006, this All-American running back is a pot-smoking Islamic terrorist.
...

On Tuesday, Houssaiky, age 20, and his friend, Osma Sabhi Abulhassan ... , also 20 and also from Dearborn, were caught in Marietta, Ohio with several cellphones and about $10,000 in cash. They admitted to buying over 600 pay-as-you-go TracFone cellphones, removing the chips, and selling them to their “boss” for $5 (each) over the cost of the phones. The chips are used in bombs by Islamic terrorist groups and have been used to detonate many carbombs. And their “boss” is the subject of an open investigation by the FBI.

link

Each was charged with money laundering in support of terrorism.

This school is not merely run by a Hezbollah supporting principal, but it is actually graduating Islamic terrorist. With my question, I was hoping to get some people on record as stating that of course they'd have a problem with this school if it was producing Islamic terrorists. And then I was going to whip out this quote, and hopefully wake them up to the fact that this high school, and Dearborn in particular, has got a major Islamic extremist problem.

Just look at the record:

September 13, 2007:

In a story that has gotten amazingly little national publicity, a medical student at Wayne State University named Houssein Zorkot was arrested in Dearborn Saturday night, dressed for combat and armed with an AK-47:

Zorkot, a third-year medical student at Wayne State University, was allegedly armed with an AK-47 assault rifle and dressed in black clothing with camouflage paint covering his face when he was arrested Saturday in Hemlock Park.

According to police, Zorkot was observed attempting to leave the park in a black SUV after officers had received reports of a man carrying a rifle in the area.

Houssein Zorkot maintained a web site here ("Welcome to the Land of Resistance and Freedom"). The organization of the site is odd, but you can also access it here. The content of Zorkot's site is mostly about Lebanon. It isn't clear to me whether Zorkot is a Lebanese immigrant or only of Lebanese ancestry; further study of the site might answer the question. The site includes photos of his trip to Lebanon in 2007. One of the pictures shows Zorkot posing with a poster of Nasrallah, the Secretary-General of Hezbollah:

www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2007/09/018449.php


December 15, 2008:

DETROIT - A former resident of Dearborn was sentenced today to 10 years after having pleaded guilty to providing material support to Hizballah, a designated foreign terrorist organization, Acting United States Attorney Terrence Berg announced.

www.ice.gov/pi/nr/0812/081215detroit.htm


October 29, 2009:

Detroit mosque leader killed in FBI raid
Feds charge 11 followers of radical Muslim group

Detroit -- The leader of a Detroit mosque who allegedly espoused violence and separatism was shot and killed Wednesday by the FBI in a gun battle at a Dearborn warehouse.

Luqman Ameen Abdullah, imam of the Masjid Al-Haqq mosque in Detroit, was being arrested on a raft of federal charges including conspiracy, receipt of stolen goods, and firearms offenses.

Charges were also filed against 11 of Abdullah's followers. Eight were in custody Wednesday night awaiting detention hearings today; three remained at large.

A federal complaint filed Wednesday identified Abdullah, 53, also known as Christopher Thomas, as "a highly placed leader of a nationwide radical fundamentalist Sunni group." His black Muslim group calls itself "Ummah," or the brotherhood, and wants to establish a separate state within the United States governed by Sharia law, Interim U.S. Attorney Terrence Berg and Andrew Arena, FBI special agent in charge in Detroit, said in a joint statement.

link

December 28, 2009:

Last week, Ford Motor Company finally won a suit by a former employee, Arab Muslim Saleem Shariff, who cheered the 9/11 attacks and high-fived fellow Arab Muslim employees on the day of the attacks. Three others–Khalid Ali Alward, Abdul Mohamed, and Saleh Mohamed Omar–also Arab Muslims, participated and did the same thing: they cheered and high-fived the 9/11 attacks.

Part of the problem is the union–the UAW, which also didn’t have a problem with these schmucks praising the attacks on America, and pressured Ford to keep them on. But, certainly, this behavior would have constituted just cause for firing, even under the UAW collective bargaining agreement.

link


July 7 2010:

Dearborn Muslims Mourn Death of Terrorist

Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah was the spiritual leader of Hezbollah, and was responsible for the 1983 terrorist attack against the U.S. Marine barracks and the U.S. embassy in Beirut, which killed more than 300 people. Fadlallah has praised terrorist attacks against Israel, and has been deemed a terrorist by the U.S. government. Not surprisingly, many U.S. Muslims are mourning his death. But which city is mourning him most of all? If you guessed "Dearborn," you've been paying attention to our recent blog posts.

DETROIT — Three suburban Detroit Muslim worship centres plan to hold a total of six services to mourn the loss of one of Shiite Islam's highest authorities.

Services will be held nightly from Tuesday through Sunday for the Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah. The 75-year-old cleric died Sunday in Lebanon after a long illness and was buried Tuesday.

The Detroit-area services will rotate among the Islamic Institute of Knowledge in Dearborn, Islamic House of Wisdom in Dearborn Heights and Islamic Center of America in Dearborn.

link

January 5, 2010:

DEARBORN, Mich. -- About 15 Arab-American students at Edsel Ford High School are in trouble over a sweatshirt they had made over the holiday break.

On the back of the sweatshirt, the number 11 is made to look like the World Trade Center Towers. The school's mascot, a thunderbird, is seen flying toward the number. Under the graphic, a tagline reads, "You can't bring us down."

The students wore the hooded sweatshirts to school Monday. They were immediately sent to the principal's office.

The sweatshirts were confiscated.

"What took place here today was an inappropriate, distasteful act," said David Mustonen, a spokesman for Dearborn Schools. "(It was) totally inappropriate, totally disrespectful, and they just were not thinking."

link

This is just scratching the surface. Clearly, we've got a major Islamic extremist problem in our country's largest Muslim community, and I bet hardly any of you knew about it. It's also no coincidence that the principal of the school in question is related to Hezbollah leaders, supports Hezbollah, and is running his school the way he is. This is what happens when Muslims move into our country and take over a city. Everyone from the mayor, to the cops, to the school board, to school principals, to the students themselves, is involved.

[Fist and Faith]

You are sure we would have no problem with this school producing Islamic terrorists. We would, and I find it dispicable that you would suggest we would not.

Whoa, slow down there. Are you about to blow a gasket? Listen, you're going to have to stop putting words in my mouth. I asked a question. That's it. I did not suggest what you're claiming I suggested.

What kind of pathetic tactic is this?

One you fabricated to make me look bad. An apology would be nice.

You're not getting one. The snide tone, even contempt, in your voice for several posts is clear. You can set something up with a lot less of it if you choose to. "I've got one easy question for those defending this Muslimized public school: if it was producing Islamic terrorists, would you finally admit it had a problem? Or would you continue to make excuses for it?" is insulting. Of course we oppose public schools producing terrorists. To suggest we'd "continue to make excuses" is garbage. Especially since we haven't made any excuses when discussing what we've been discussing - the football practices. As I said:

They asked the players. The non-Muslim players agreed. The parents of the non-Muslim players agreed. We have no indication that they felt pressured to go along with it. As far as we know, for the sake of their friends, they went along with this. Chances are, teenage boys thought it would be pretty cool. Chances are their mothers said, "Are you crazy? That's the dumbest idea I ever heard." And the boys said, "Pleeeaaase!!!" And the fathers said, "He's up until all hours every night anyway. Who cares? Let him do it."

The liberals you are speaking to here do not "take up" for Muslims. We have said that this specific incident is not a problem. A particular religion has an important event that would conflict with football practice for one particular week. An unusual solution was offered. All were asked if the solution is acceptable. Nothing indicates that anyone objected. Nothing indicates that anyone was threatened, bullied, or pressured in any way. It happened during summer vacation (it's still summer vacation there), so there were no worries about it interfering with anybody's education.

No excuses are needed. It's takes a bit of stretching to work a religious agenda into that. Not every action that has roots in religion is necessarily an attempt to push that religion onto others.


And you got Ki to join in with "So I'm guessing we're all ok with..." and ending a sentence with "...right?" You folks want to get snotty, I'll get snotty right back. Treat me like someone who disagrees with you, and who is maybe uninformed about something, but is possibly not an idiot, and I'll respond in kind.

[Cybrweez]

This is a problem: There's no problem until we start seeing terrorists.

Well, others would like to get a headstart in trying to reduce terrorists. All these liberal defenses of Islam play exactly into Muslims' hands, the majority Muslims I mean. Those who don't have a real problem w/terrorism. I'm amazed that some here in the US, and on this board, use the "most Muslims don't agree w/terrorism" myth. I'd love to know what backs this opinion? Is it their extensive experience w/Muslims around the world? B/c around the world, in "most" (I almost said all), heavily populated Muslim areas, there is terrorism problems. It a bit naive to claim, despite this worldwide phenomenon, that "most" Muslims have a problem with it. Amazing this majority has no influence, anywhere.

[Damelon]

You are sure we would have no problem with this school producing Islamic terrorists. We would, and I find it dispicable that you would suggest we would not.

Whoa, slow down there. Are you about to blow a gasket? Listen, you're going to have to stop putting words in my mouth. I asked a question. That's it. I did not suggest what you're claiming I suggested.

What kind of pathetic tactic is this?

One you fabricated to make me look bad. An apology would be nice.

My question about whether people here would finally admit this high school had a problem if it was producing Islamic terrorist was a set-up for this:

August 10, 2006, - 12:17 am

All-American Terrorists: How Dearbornistan Boys Went From Football Field to Islamic Terror; TracFone Detonators & Passenger Lists

By Debbie Schlussel

In 2003, [Ali Houssaiky of Dearborn, Michigan,] was an Honorable Mention on the Michigan Class-A All-State Football Team. The Fordson High School Football Team he co-captained was hailed in USA Today for its observance of Ramadan fasting. In 2004, he got a full scholarship to play football at Grand Valley State University. And now in 2006, this All-American running back is a pot-smoking Islamic terrorist.
...

On Tuesday, Houssaiky, age 20, and his friend, Osma Sabhi Abulhassan ... , also 20 and also from Dearborn, were caught in Marietta, Ohio with several cellphones and about $10,000 in cash. They admitted to buying over 600 pay-as-you-go TracFone cellphones, removing the chips, and selling them to their “boss” for $5 (each) over the cost of the phones. The chips are used in bombs by Islamic terrorist groups and have been used to detonate many carbombs. And their “boss” is the subject of an open investigation by the FBI.

link

Where is Dearbornistan? That's quite an unbiased news source you found.

Just look at the record:

September 13, 2007:

In a story that has gotten amazingly little national publicity, a medical student at Wayne State University named Houssein Zorkot was arrested in Dearborn Saturday night, dressed for combat and armed with an AK-47:

Zorkot, a third-year medical student at Wayne State University, was allegedly armed with an AK-47 assault rifle and dressed in black clothing with camouflage paint covering his face when he was arrested Saturday in Hemlock Park.

According to police, Zorkot was observed attempting to leave the park in a black SUV after officers had received reports of a man carrying a rifle in the area.

Houssein Zorkot maintained a web site here ("Welcome to the Land of Resistance and Freedom"). The organization of the site is odd, but you can also access it here. The content of Zorkot's site is mostly about Lebanon. It isn't clear to me whether Zorkot is a Lebanese immigrant or only of Lebanese ancestry; further study of the site might answer the question. The site includes photos of his trip to Lebanon in 2007. One of the pictures shows Zorkot posing with a poster of Nasrallah, the Secretary-General of Hezbollah:

www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2007/09/018449.php


December 15, 2008:

DETROIT - A former resident of Dearborn was sentenced today to 10 years after having pleaded guilty to providing material support to Hizballah, a designated foreign terrorist organization, Acting United States Attorney Terrence Berg announced.

www.ice.gov/pi/nr/0812/081215detroit.htm


October 29, 2009:

Detroit mosque leader killed in FBI raid
Feds charge 11 followers of radical Muslim group

Detroit -- The leader of a Detroit mosque who allegedly espoused violence and separatism was shot and killed Wednesday by the FBI in a gun battle at a Dearborn warehouse.

Luqman Ameen Abdullah, imam of the Masjid Al-Haqq mosque in Detroit, was being arrested on a raft of federal charges including conspiracy, receipt of stolen goods, and firearms offenses.

Charges were also filed against 11 of Abdullah's followers. Eight were in custody Wednesday night awaiting detention hearings today; three remained at large.

A federal complaint filed Wednesday identified Abdullah, 53, also known as Christopher Thomas, as "a highly placed leader of a nationwide radical fundamentalist Sunni group." His black Muslim group calls itself "Ummah," or the brotherhood, and wants to establish a separate state within the United States governed by Sharia law, Interim U.S. Attorney Terrence Berg and Andrew Arena, FBI special agent in charge in Detroit, said in a joint statement.

link

Sounds like law enforcement is doing what it is supposed to do. Enforce the laws. It is not illegal to say you support Hizballah. It is illegal to send them money or materials.

December 28, 2009:

Last week, Ford Motor Company finally won a suit by a former employee, Arab Muslim Saleem Shariff, who cheered the 9/11 attacks and high-fived fellow Arab Muslim employees on the day of the attacks. Three others–Khalid Ali Alward, Abdul Mohamed, and Saleh Mohamed Omar–also Arab Muslims, participated and did the same thing: they cheered and high-fived the 9/11 attacks.

Part of the problem is the union–the UAW, which also didn’t have a problem with these schmucks praising the attacks on America, and pressured Ford to keep them on. But, certainly, this behavior would have constituted just cause for firing, even under the UAW collective bargaining agreement.

link

In an earlier age they would have been tarred and feathered. But, since this comes from the same source that changes the names of cities, I would think she wouldn't be looking for stories where Muslims fit in either.

January 5, 2010:

DEARBORN, Mich. -- About 15 Arab-American students at Edsel Ford High School are in trouble over a sweatshirt they had made over the holiday break.

On the back of the sweatshirt, the number 11 is made to look like the World Trade Center Towers. The school's mascot, a thunderbird, is seen flying toward the number. Under the graphic, a tagline reads, "You can't bring us down."

The students wore the hooded sweatshirts to school Monday. They were immediately sent to the principal's office.

The sweatshirts were confiscated.

"What took place here today was an inappropriate, distasteful act," said David Mustonen, a spokesman for Dearborn Schools. "(It was) totally inappropriate, totally disrespectful, and they just were not thinking."

link

I thought Dearborn schools were in cahoots with the Muslims. Sounds to me like they got punished.

This is just scratching the surface. Clearly, we've got a major Islamic extremist problem in our country's largest Muslim community, and I bet hardly any of you knew about it. It's also no coincidence that the principal of the school in question is related to Hezbollah leaders, supports Hezbollah, and is running his school the way he is. This is what happens when Muslims move into our country and take over a city. Everyone from the mayor, to the cops, to the school board, to school principals, to the students themselves, is involved.

It's not a crime to be related to someone who is leading Hezbollah, or even to sympathise with them verbally. It is a crime to send them material support. If he is trying to impose Muslim teaching in the school, he will soon run afoul of the ACLU and the courts will clamp down on any out of bounds activities like they do when other religious groups try to do that in the public schools.

You are trying to paint all Muslims with the same broad brush. That is my problem with what you are arguing. You are doing Bin Laden's work for him. He wants to turn the Muslims here into a fifth column. The easiest way to do that is to single them out as probable lawbreakers. The vast majority of Muslims just want to get by like everyone else. Muslims will have to leave some of their cultural behaviors behind to fit in, and they will have to understand that, some might not handle that so well, but I don't see why they should be singled out for collective punishment if some don't do so.

[Fist and Faith]

I'm not sure what you folks want. If they, or anyone, break the law, they should face the consequences. If it means going to jail, being fired, fined, or whatever the consequence for the particular crime is. Doesn't matter if the crime is principals or teachers punching students; using tax dollars to establish prayer rooms in public schools; sending material support to Hezbollah; bombing people; or whatever. Doesn't matter if the criminal is this &^%$ of a principal; John Allen Muhammad; Charles Manson; Timothy McVeigh; or whoever.

So what are you guys doing about this situation? You sure are looking down on me for not doing something. Honestly, I have not the slightest idea what I could be doing. So, other than giving me grief for not thinking it's literally a crime to ask if non-Muslim students will practice football at night for a week during summer vacation because of Ramadan, what are you doing? Maybe I can help?

I'm reminded of a scene from yet another fictional show, and I'm gonna be pathetic enough to post it. Star Trek: The Next Generation. It's a conversation between between Riker and the Guardian of a long-dead civilization who woke up when the Enterprise and a Ferengi vessel showed up at the planet:

Guradian: <I>"What of them? Shall I destroy them?"</I>

Riker: <I>"Then they would learn nothing."

"A most interesting conclusion! But... What if they never learn, Riker?"

"Is this a test also?"

"In life, one is always tested."

"I see them much as we were several hundred years ago. But posessing the technology they now have, they are very dangerous. But we can hardly hate what we once were. They may grow. And learn."

"And learn ways to destroy you."

"Well, our values require us to face that possibility."</I>

My values require me to let them high-five each other about 9/11. I find them to be repulsive humans. If I was there, there's a chance I'd have broken a law or two in response. But if the USA is about freedom and equality, then they are free to feel as they do, and say what they say. When they do more than feel and say, they should get arrested. Just like everybody else. Whether it's individuals, like the ones I mentioned above, or organizations, like the gangs a few miles down the road from me that were the target of serious police raids a few months ago: www.nytimes.com/2010/05/14/nyregion/14newburgh.html

[Avatar]

Hahahaha, I'm at a loss for words, really. It's clear that this is a highly emotionally charged issue. I'm not sure if you can actually be at war with an idea, but if you can, and if your idea is better, doesn't that mean it should "win?" In which case why worry?

I guess that, in principle, I agree with Fist. Anybody breaks any laws, they should face the consequences. If anything they're doing isn't against the law, then they have every right to continue doing that thing, right?

Let's keep it civil huh guys?

--A

[Cybrweez]

I don't have an answer for what to do. I also haven't chimed in on the football practice, b/c I'm just not sure (and for the mosque, I've only said its not a bridge builder, at least for majority of Muslims). I see the trend, similar to other areas in the world, and I see the potential. I'm not about to hide my head in the sand for an idea of multiculturalism. I'm just acknowledging that Islam has the potential, and a good justification, for forcing others to submit. What to do about it, I don't know.

[aliantha]

It's not about multiculturalism, fer cryin' out loud -- it's about the First Amendment to the Constitution. Americans have a fundamental right to practice any religion they choose -- or no religion.

As soon as we start telling Muslims they can't build a mosque, we are opening the gates to persecution of *anyone* who practices *any* religion that's not apple-pie-American -- which is to say, anyone who's not Christian.

I think a significant proportion of American Watchers are something other than Christian. Those of us who fit that definition ought to be frightened as hell of anyone who suggests limiting *any* American's freedom of religion -- and yes, I'm looking at you, Z.

[Cail]

I have a couple things that need to be pointed out.

- It's not a mosque, it's a community center.

- It's not on the WTC site.

- There's no "except Islam" in the First Amendment.

[Zarathustra]

It's not about multiculturalism, fer cryin' out loud -- it's about the First Amendment to the Constitution. Americans have a fundamental right to practice any religion they choose -- or no religion.

As soon as we start telling Muslims they can't build a mosque, we are opening the gates to persecution of *anyone* who practices *any* religion that's not apple-pie-American -- which is to say, anyone who's not Christian.

I think a significant proportion of American Watchers are something other than Christian. Those of us who fit that definition ought to be frightened as hell of anyone who suggests limiting *any* American's freedom of religion -- and yes, I'm looking at you, Z.

When did I suggest limiting anyone's freedom? I'm against the mosque. I suspect the imam's motivations. But I never said I'm against their right to build it. I DON'T HAVE THE POWER TO STOP ANYONE FROM BUILDING A MOSQUE. I'm just voicing my opinion. Which is MY Constitutional right.

You're looking at me, alright. But you're doing a piss-poor job of actually seeing. Or reading, for that matter.

You are trying to paint all Muslims with the same broad brush.

No, I keep pointing out specific examples.

You are doing Bin Laden's work for him.

Really? You're going to go there? I posted facts. You can dispute them if you want. But don't accuse me of doing Bin Laden's work. You need to get a grip on yourself. You're losing it.

You're not getting one. The snide tone, even contempt, in your voice for several posts is clear.

A snide tone does not justify you claiming that I said someting I didn't.

"I've got one easy question for those defending this Muslimized public school: if it was producing Islamic terrorists, would you finally admit it had a problem? Or would you continue to make excuses for it?" is insulting. Of course we oppose public schools producing terrorists. To suggest we'd "continue to make excuses" is garbage.

I didn't suggest. I asked. Your own emotions clouded your judgment to keep you from seeing the difference.

I still haven't seen anyone here admit that Dearborn and its high schools have a serious problem. No, instead people (like Aliantha suggests) are afraid of me, as if I'm the problem. Strange.

="Fist and Faith"]Especially since we haven't made any excuses when discussing what we've been discussing - the football practices.

Of course there have been excuses! Just off the top of my head:

... it's still summer, school isn't in yet.
... it's better for the kids to not practice in the heat.
... the parents invovled don't mind.
... it's none of your business, Z, because you don't live there.
... it doesn't cost you much in tax money.

My values require me to let them high-five each other about 9/11.

Do your values extend to letting me post facts on this site without calling me "dispicable" and making up things I've said? Are you going to lump me in with Bin Laden, too? You all seem more upset about me than the people who are high-fiving about 9/11. Why aren't you emphatically fighting for my right to say my opinion? Why aren't you defending me just as fervently??? When I was attacking Christians in the Close, you were right there on board with me. But when it's Muslims I criticize, suddenly I'm "dispicable." I'm at a loss to explain this inconsistency.

I haven't said that people don't have the right to high-five. I've merely posted the evidence that they have, in order to illustrate that there is a pervasive culture of Islamic hatred for America and American values in a significant portion of the Dearborn Muslim community.

.
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Now, back to the mosque and this "moderate" imam. New audio has surfaced from Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. Here are a couple of soundbites of "tolerance."

"We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims. You may remember that the US-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was Secretary of State and was asked whether this was worth it, said it was worth it.

Collateral damage is a nice thing to put on a paper but when the collateral damage is your own uncle or cousin, what passions do these arouse? How do you negotiate? How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism. It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not solve the problem, but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?

atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/

So he thinks that the U.S. is worse than al Qaida (and complicit in 9/11, remember), and that terrorism is sometimes necessary to "get people's attention." He finds it hard to tell people that terrorism is not justified.

This man has no interest in "bridge building." And it seems many of you do not, either. You're more interested in criticizing me than entertaining the possibility that this imam is not what the New York Times claims he is.

[Ki]

And you got Ki to join in with "So I'm guessing we're all ok with..." and ending a sentence with "...right?" You folks want to get snotty, I'll get snotty right back. Treat me like someone who disagrees with you, and who is maybe uninformed about something, but is possibly not an idiot, and I'll respond in kind.

Let me make this CRYSTAL CLEAR TO YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE:

I AM MY OWN PERSON!!!!!!! I DO NOT DO MY HUSBAND'S BIDDING!!!!!! I WRITE WHAT I WANT TO WRITE!!!!! I HAVE MY OWN IDEAS!!!! I THINK FOR MYSELF!!!!!!

YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST MAN ON THIS BOARD TO SAY THIS TO ME!!! DO YOU KNOW HOW ABSOLUTELY INSULTING THIS IS??!!?!?! I HAVE HAD IT WITH YOU AND EVERY FUCKING MAN ON THIS BOARD WHO DOES THIS TO ME AND I AM DONE WITH THIS PLACE! YOU ALL WANT TO GET MAD ABOUT SOME STUPID LITTLE PETTY ARGUMENT ON THIS MEANINGLESS LITTLE WEBSITE...FINE. BUT I WILL NOT LET ANOTHER MAN ON THIS WEBSITE INSULT ME ANYMORE BY SAYING THAT I AM MY HUSBAND'S PAWN. YOU ARE A PATHETIC LITTLE PERSON TO SAY THAT TO A WOMAN!!!! AND THAT GOES FOR EVERY MAN THAT HAS DIMINISHED MY CONTRIBUTION ON THIS BOARD BY SAYING THIS TO ME. YOU HAVE HURT MY FEELINGS. YOU HAVE MADE ME FEEL LIKE MY OPINIONS DON'T COUNT. YOU HAVE MADE ME FEEL LIKE I AM NO ONE EXCEPT WHO I AM ATTACHED TO ZARATHUSTRA. I wish you had just been snotty to me.

Avatar, you got something to say to me? Fist & Faith made this personal. Let's just say, I evened the score. Don't worry though, I'm outta here.

[Lord Mhoram]

You're more interested in criticizing me than entertaining the possibility that this imam is not what the New York Times claims he is.

How about what the FBI claims he is? Do you think the FBI would use an anti-American radical as a consultant? Do you think blogs named Atlas Shrugs and CreepingSharia.com know more about him than the the FBI does? Also, Cail is right. The "Ground Zero mosque" controversy is the biggest misnomer of the year. It's neither at Ground Zero (it's blocks away in a crowded neighborhood, surrounded by shops and businesses like strip clubs and, yes, other mosques; how many of the anti-mosque posters here have actually been to lower Manhattan?) nor strictly a mosque. It's a multifaceted community center that contains a mosque. Damelon's point about the analogues between the campaign against Park51 and al-Qaeda's rhetoric really bears repeating. Both Presidents Bush and Obama have gone to great lengths to make it clear that the so-called "war on terrorism" (which as I've argued over the years isn't really a war on terrorism but that's another story) is not a war against Islam. That was a central point of Obama's Cairo speech, and it was a central component of Bush's gestures to the Muslim world that I thought then and continue to think is one of his most positive legacies. Al-Qaeda's war against the United States is predicated on the idea that we Americans battle Islam. When Muslims build a community center in our most affluent city in an effort to reach out and build cultural ties, and we react with disgust and reject them, we totally reaffirm what al-Qaeda says we are -- intolerant cultural warriors. What is being waged today -- by demagogues on the right and in the Democratic Party who don't support Park51 at least in principle -- is a cultural war against Islam. It's an attempt to curb First Amendment rights in the name of fear. It's a shameful attempt to connect mainstream, middle-class American Muslims with Middle Eastern Islamist fundamentalist radicals. Our country was founded by people fleeing religious persecution. It's a damn shame that there are people in our country today who repeat the actions of those who caused the Puritans to flee Europe.

[Fist and Faith]

Heh. I didn't know they were married. Or, actually, I think I do remember it now. Sorry, Ki. That's now what I meant. I just meant his tone seemed to be spreading. But considering what you just said to me in public, I think I'd better not open the pm you sent. Not sure if it's possible to send a bullet through pm, but just in case...