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Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by rdhopeca »

The setup for sacrificing Elena to the Bane. The act seems perfectly in keeping for how Covenant has affected her life - I love him but he's has ruined her life every chance he has had. However, what's up with Sunder and Hollian doing that? And why didn't Elena wink out to wherever the Dead spend most of their time?
I believe Elena chose to be the sacrifice, which is why she didn't wink out back to Deadville. Her purpose was to hold off the Bane until the company could get away.

And remember, Covenant didn't really do this to her. He asked for help, and those he asked for help did this.
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Post by Seareach »

Fist and Faith wrote:
Madadeva wrote:Also, Linden is still whiny! ;) :lol: In one scene, where Covenant 'brings her back' from a - lets say - mental breakdown caused by the escape from She-who-must-not-be-named, she is thrown for a loop by the fact that Covenant will not embrace her! She thinks and internally whines about it incessantly even though she should know it is NOT because he has lost his love for her ... but it is to allow him to remain 'in control'. She thinks the worse of his 'rejection' and I felt she should know better!
You should come visit my mind sometime! :lol:
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Re: The thing that's really bugging me...

Post by blingdomepiece »

native wrote:
blingdomepiece wrote:
I don't understand, do I need to reread something?
Well as I understood it - all the Elohim were sucked into Jeremiah's contruct, not just Infelice.
Oh I didn't realize they got sucked in. I thought the construct was just a way to free *his* mind, independent of the Elohim being imprisoned. Reading comprehension failure on my part, I guess.
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Post by Madadeva »

Actually, I think the writing is ambiguous. Jerimiah says he has made a door to his mind. He does NOT say "I caught them!"

While I think they have been trapped, other interpretations are equally valid ... until the last book comes out! :biggrin:
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Post by Madadeva »

Seareach wrote:
Madadeva wrote:Also, Linden is still whiny! ;) :lol: In one scene, where Covenant 'brings her back' from a - lets say - mental breakdown caused by the escape from She-who-must-not-be-named, she is thrown for a loop by the fact that Covenant will not embrace her! She thinks and internally whines about it incessantly even though she should know it is NOT because he has lost his love for her ... but it is to allow him to remain 'in control'. She thinks the worse of his 'rejection' and I felt she should know better!
You should come visit my mind sometime! :lol:
Sounds like fun! :lol: With liberal doses of alcohol and all your friends at the next Elohimfest!!
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Post by native »

Madadeva wrote:Actually, I think the writing is ambiguous. Jerimiah says he has made a door to his mind. He does NOT say "I caught them!"
Yeah I don't think Jeremmiah was intending to do anything to the Elohim at all. Which makes it all a bit convnient plotwise
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Post by blingdomepiece »

I guess one reason I'm not sure is that if the construct was going to imprison ALL Elohim somehow, wouldn't more than just Infelice show up to do something about it? (Problems with the Worm notwithstanding)

Her stated reason for showing up is that if Jeremiah succeeds (in getting his mind back, I assume) he could eventually end up building a prison for the Creator. There's nothing in there about a danger to them, from him, IIRC.

That said I'm going to reread that chapter now.
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Post by native »

blingdomepiece wrote: Her stated reason for showing up is that if Jeremiah succeeds (in getting his mind back, I assume) he could eventually end up building a prison for the Creator. There's nothing in there about a danger to them, from him, IIRC.
Linden: What do you think he's making....
Infelice:...The boy will ensnare us. He will deprive us of life and meaning and hope.
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Post by blingdomepiece »

native wrote:
blingdomepiece wrote: Her stated reason for showing up is that if Jeremiah succeeds (in getting his mind back, I assume) he could eventually end up building a prison for the Creator. There's nothing in there about a danger to them, from him, IIRC.
Linden: What do you think he's making....
Infelice:...The boy will ensnare us. He will deprive us of life and meaning and hope.
"He will" could as easily mean "at some point in the future", as "in ten or fifteen minutes from now". But of course you may be right.
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Post by native »

blingdomepiece wrote:
native wrote: Linden: What do you think he's making....
Infelice:...The boy will ensnare us. He will deprive us of life and meaning and hope.
"He will" could as easily mean "at some point in the future", as "in ten or fifteen minutes from now". But of course you may be right.
Hmmm is there a 'some point in the future' for the Elohim? They're all about to be eaten by the Worm in the next 72 hours or so.
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Post by native »

I promised the publishers a review in return for my ARC. Here it is. I'll amend and republish it in the main section here after publication, but I'd welcome the thoughts of those who've already read it in the meantime....

*****

Let me say first I know nothing about Stephen Donaldson as a person, or how much of his writing comes from his imagination and how much is from his own experience, so please treat my comments about his writing as metaphorical rather than personal.

Thirty one years and many lifetimes ago, I stood beside Thomas Covenant at Foul's Crèche, as he confronted a bargain basement Sauron for my adolescent entertainment. This month, surreally for me, Thomas and I both found ourselves right back at Hotash Slay, and this time the evil to be purged is the ex-wife. How middle aged do I feel? I don't know how the author feels about his ex, but if I were to learn he had divorce issues, it wouldn't be a total shock. He really makes that bee hatch suffer, before his leading man, all full of compassion and a magic sword, sticks her one right through the chest, and grabs back his wedding ring. I guess Mrs Donaldson took the best china in the split.

This book for me is all about women suffering. Covenant’s second ‘wife’ Linden Avery's mental collapse is also chronicled in excruciating detail. Then Covenant ends up accidentally feeding his dead daughter to a giant monster, potterishly called 'She Who Must Not Be Named', where she faces eternal torture. The monster herself is the embodied sum total of all the anger and bitterness of all the women of the Land, plus Lord Foul's ex-wife besides. This monster is responsible for the latest blighting of the Land. The men, by comparison, seem curiously numb and ineffective. Jeremiah drools. Covenant observes. The Humbled agonise. Liand, Anele, Esmer, the Harrow and Galt all get themselves killed in curiously unimportant ways as though the author wanted to make an unexpected point, and then clear the decks for the finale. It's lucky they have a group of female giants guarding them, otherwise they'd never have gotten even this far.

But it's Joan Covenant whom this book gravitates towards. The torments of Elena and Infelice presage her suffering and that of the whole Earth (as the author might put it if he talks like he writes.) The most haunting moment of the book is where Covenant finds Joan on a beach below Foul's Crèche, a beach created by some unnamed cataclysm far out at sea sucking out the tide and foreboding a Tsunami, as the Earth begins to tear itself apart. She put herself there because she yearns for death as an alternative to her worse torments. For all the women of this book, there are worse things than death that befall them. Even little Pahni is left desolate and suffering while her boyfriend gets killed. Somehow he seems to get the best of that deal.

So if you're looking for laughs, look somewhere else. Not one person in this book has the remotest grain of a smile on their faces. Not even the perennially unfunny giants can even attempt to raise a laugh this time round. In truth, once you start laughing, you might start laughing at the plot.

To the end of avoiding that, Donaldson keeps you perpetually off balance. He's always used pretentious vocabulary, but at the age of 44 I now know, as I did not aged 14, that not many know what “gemmed in gall” or “more than an eidolon” means without access to a dictionary. Donaldson must have spent many hours with Chambers and a highlighter pen to find so many hundreds of obscure words as “refulgence”, “bedizened” or “objurgation”, and that’s just one chapter.

What purpose does this curious vocabulary serve? I think at least in part it's to disorientate the reader, to distract from the fundamentally ridiculous genre so that he can try to elevate his writing above it. And if so, I think he succeeds in his intention. He further aids himself here by an adept use of a rampaging imagination and a smart use of the unexpected, to similarly surprise and disorient the reader, and that goes a long way to disguising plot mechanics which remain to my eye somewhat less elegant than in times past. So when Covenant says "Do the unexpected" Linden trades her staff and ring away to an Insequent. The Lost Deep, beautifully realised by the author, is spectacular and, although signposted properly, comes delightfully from nowhere. The mass graves of the Elohim's ancient enemies and what becomes of them are haunting. The last page. He can write.

Nevertheless if you insist on judging the book at its ‘swords and sorcery’ face value, the plotting may annoy you. Esmer, Anele, Liand? Is that it for them? Pretty underwhelming character arcs if so. Jeremiah and the Ranyhym are used to take the story forward without any kind of convincing narrative motive or logic or relevance to what else has passed, with Deus ex Machina efficiency. The emotional sacrifices and the plot development are supposed to trade off each other organically, but the mechanics of the process are sometimes taken for granted or skated over. Professor Tolkien would not have approved.

The reason is a good one though. This book has strong psychological undercurrents that are much more important than the plot. If the theme of the first chronicles was that guilt is power, the theme here is that you have to accept the pain of the guilt or face impotence. It’s no co-incidence that most of the male characters are rendered ineffective by their introspective psychological conditions, while the women and the horses make the tough choices. Anele is a lunatic for his own protection. Jeremiah, we learn, is vacant for the same reason. Covenant demands to keep his leprosy so that he cannot feel pain, whereas Linden ends up cutting herself in the manner of a self-abuser to ensure that she can. Esmer’s attempts to balance his actions towards neutrality are an exploration of one way out of that dilemma which we will doubtless explore further. The Haruchai seem to be incapable of any act of imagination whatsoever. And it is almost needless to say that these psychological cripples are rendered so by their families. One wonders who got custody in the Donaldson divorce.

Only the young buck Liand is free from doubt, willing to take action, willing to risk it all. And he gets his head caved in. If I were a grumpy old dad (which I am) I’d say serves him right for flirting with Linden (the second wife) and making out with the cords.

One cannot help feeling that the author approves of this peculiarly male paralysis – that he feels it is the only way towards a sane answer in a mad world.

I hope I don’t make it sound like a bad book. It isn't. I was in no mood to read a 700 page doorstep but once I started this one I could not stop. On the train, when I should be asleep, when I was supposed to be working – there I was flipping the pages as fast as I could. The writing was so very good that my excitement swept me along. The feeling of impending death precludes long journeys and dawdling reveries exploring the landscape. These people are on a deadline. And yet one hardly cares whether they save the Earth or not in a sense, because it’s all going to end anyway within the next 700 pages. My feeling is that saving the planet would just be too predictable at this point, and simply wouldn’t accommodate the climax of themes that have been set in motion. Donaldson is preaching resolution, acceptance and the perspective of age, not rebirth or redemption. These are after all the last chronicles.
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Post by eg »

Poor you that you condescend to read this work of swords and sorcery. Grumpy old dad that you are why did you even bother read something 'in this fundamentally ridiculous genre'?

Fine not to like the book or the author (I certainly had problems with parts of it - particularly Liand and Anele's ends). But the cheap psychoanalyzing of Donaldson is a bit much.

I'm probably glad that not all writers use as many obscure words as Donaldson but I don't think his vocabulary is pretentious. He uses words very precisely - they set the scene and create exactly the mood that he wants.

Anyway you make some good points along the way but YOU might want to analyze why you need to insult something before you admit you kind of like it.
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Post by native »

eg wrote:Poor you that you condescend to read this work of swords and sorcery. Grumpy old dad that you are why did you even bother read something 'in this fundamentally ridiculous genre'?
My point was that he successfully transcended the genre, and that was his intention.
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Post by Madadeva »

Anyone's review is certainly their own opinion. However, your review is not only a critique, it gives away every major plot line in the story.

It would NOT be appropriate to post in the main section after the book comes out without much of it spoilered. It would not be appropriate to post in a public forum as potential readers look for a general critique, not a plot dissection.
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Post by Seareach »

native wrote:
Madadeva wrote:Actually, I think the writing is ambiguous. Jerimiah says he has made a door to his mind. He does NOT say "I caught them!"
Yeah I don't think Jeremmiah was intending to do anything to the Elohim at all. Which makes it all a bit convnient plotwise
I never got the impression he had captured the Elohim in the construct me makes. As Creator/Madadeva says, Jeremiah says he made a door to his mind. That's what that construct is (and is for) and nothing else

Oh and I'm with Madadeva about the review. Too many spoilers. And, also, I'd cut out all the stuff relating to Donaldson's personal life. As you have said, you don't know him; and I really think that kind of postulation is quite arrogant (and totally irrelevant to what you're trying to do--which is review the book and not the author's personal life). If you were trying to be metaphorical I certainly didn't see it that way.
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Post by blingdomepiece »

native wrote:I promised the publishers a review in return for my ARC. Here it is. I'll amend and republish it in the main section here after publication, but I'd welcome the thoughts of those who've already read it in the meantime....
Who is your intended audience? As mentioned repeatedly, most people who haven't already read a book aren't going to appreciate a review talking about who dies and how.

I also feel that your review is as much about you and your guilt for enjoying fantasy writing as it is about the book itself. It's kind of written in a style of "This is way too uncool for anyone to like, and yet I like it anyway despite knowing all its flaws." This makes it appear to lack sincerity and conviction, whether that is actually the case or not.
This book for me is all about women suffering.
I would say that as a Donaldson book, it is about everyone suffering, reader often included :).
potterishly called 'She Who Must Not Be Named',
Or maybe Lovecraftianly called such, since Donaldson is more likely to have read Lovecraft than Rowling. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastur
He's always used pretentious vocabulary, [...] What purpose does this curious vocabulary serve?
He has explained in his Gradual Interview that he uses "elevated" (or fine, pretentious) vocabulary on purpose as part of a "High Fantasy narrative style" for this series.
I think at least in part it's to disorientate the reader, to distract from the fundamentally ridiculous genre so that he can try to elevate his writing above it.
If that was your central thesis, I guess I just sunk your battleship.
Esmer, Anele, Liand? Is that it for them? Pretty underwhelming character arcs if so.
I do kind of agree, and I think Esmer in particular will annoy people who found him so fascinating, but on the other hand if every character gets a perfectly rendered arc that climaxes somewhere around the last chapter of the last book, isn't that a little bit contrived too? We have all read series with a main character body count of zero from start to end and I find it greatly diminishes tension. I think authors end up in a no-win situation where if things go as people expect, it's just formula, but if they shake it up, it jars people out of their comfort zone. I guess Esmer, Anele, Liand, and Galt all have to die so that Jeremiah can get his mind back. Is that too much or worth it? I guess we'll find out in three years. But clearly "the hope of the land" was all about Jeremiah. It's hard to render judgment without knowing what is yet to come.
Jeremiah and the Ranyhym are used to take the story forward without any kind of convincing narrative motive or logic or relevance to what else has passed, with Deus ex Machina efficiency.
I would agree that it's curious that the magic horsies knew what to do, but they've been like that ever since the first chronicles when they could tell they were going to get summoned before they were. I don't think SRD has suddenly imbued them with any prescience that is "out of character" with what potential they may have had. He's just using them a bit more as a plot device and I think he kind of has to. In the original chronicles, a few times when something needed to happen an Unfettered One would show up to move things along. He has done this now with a few Insequent but after the fourth one I guess it was time for something else.

I guess one thing worth exploring would be both Linden and Covenant's choice to take care of personal matters / loved ones first. It is sort of covered under "We have 15 different things to worry about right now, where should we begin?" and this is what they do. Does this serendipitously help in solving the larger picture? Is this showing that you can't help others until you get your own house in order? It seems if they were chiefly concerned with the fate of the Land they'd be getting their asses over to Melenkurion Skyweir and figuring out a strategy on the way. I do think they're going to show up in time to face the Worm, and when they do, will these choices prove to have been wise? I am guessing so, since Jeremiah having his mind back is probably going to be key, and not to get all Dungeon Quest but they have some extra white gold now and that might come in handy.
The reason is a good one though. This book has strong psychological undercurrents that are much more important than the plot. If the theme of the first chronicles was that guilt is power, the theme here is that you have to accept the pain of the guilt or face impotence. It’s no co-incidence that most of the male characters are rendered ineffective by their introspective psychological conditions, while the women and the horses make the tough choices.
And yet sometimes the women are indecisive (hi Linden) and sometimes the men are not impotent (the Covenant sausage fest that went off to save/kill Joan, although maybe some of the Feroce were chicks). And if the two main characters don't fit neatly into the theme, the theme may not fit neatly into the review.
One cannot help feeling that the author approves of this peculiarly male paralysis – that he feels it is the only way towards a sane answer in a mad world.
I believe he has written that one of the themes in the earlier Covenant books (and that he does not refute now) is the need to take personal responsibility for a situation, so I would have to disagree with this conjecture.
And yet one hardly cares whether they save the Earth or not in a sense, because it’s all going to end anyway within the next 700 pages. My feeling is that saving the planet would just be too predictable at this point, and simply wouldn’t accommodate the climax of themes that have been set in motion. Donaldson is preaching resolution, acceptance and the perspective of age, not rebirth or redemption. These are after all the last chronicles.
Maybe SRD will also "do something they don't expect." We'll see!

Anyway, hope I wasn't too much of a dick and I might have read you wrong in a few places, but it's late and I'm sure you'll let me know if I've done you wrong. I do like someone taking the material on seriously, and my nature would not allow me to like any book without some qualification myself. But I think the next draft of your review could really kick ass if it lost the spoilers, and the snark. Cheers :).
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Post by blingdomepiece »

blingdomepiece wrote:
Jeremiah and the Ranyhym are used to take the story forward without any kind of convincing narrative motive or logic or relevance to what else has passed, with Deus ex Machina efficiency.
I would agree that it's curious that the magic horsies knew what to do,
Or could there be a link involving Jeremiah's necessary type of construct, the fact that marrow-meld was a lost Ramen art, and the Ranyhyn's determination that Jeremiah needed to get to that bone pit?
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Post by native »

blingdomepiece wrote: Who is your intended audience? As mentioned repeatedly, most people who haven't already read a book aren't going to appreciate a review talking about who dies and how.
Thanks for your measured and intelligent response. I guess it's aimed at people who have read the book already and want to discuss the themes, which seem to me to be the substance, rather than the plot, which seems to me to be - well, not the substance, to put it politely.
blingdomepiece wrote: I also feel that your review is as much about you and your guilt for enjoying fantasy writing as it is about the book itself. It's kind of written in a style of "This is way too uncool for anyone to like, and yet I like it anyway despite knowing all its flaws." This makes it appear to lack sincerity and conviction, whether that is actually the case or not.
May I dispute this? I wouldn't go the trouble of obtaining an ARC and reviewing the book if I was embarrassed about reading it. I'm not criticising the genre, I'm suggested the plot here is rickety as hell, and somewhat absurd, but that didn't, repeat didn't, lessen my enjoyment of the book.
blingdomepiece wrote: He has explained in his Gradual Interview that he uses "elevated" (or fine, pretentious) vocabulary on purpose as part of a "High Fantasy narrative style" for this series.
I think at least in part it's to disorientate the reader, to distract from the fundamentally ridiculous genre so that he can try to elevate his writing above it.
If that was your central thesis, I guess I just sunk your battleship.
It's not my central thesis, but I don't either think the two explanations are mutually incompatable. 'High' fantasy itself written without purple prose comes off as childish. I would argue you have to 'elevate' the language to distract from the fundamental absurdity and to be taken seriously. You can see that most clearly in the difference between 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings' for example In this case I suggest Donaldson has taken that approach to a new extreme.
blingdomepiece wrote:if every character gets a perfectly rendered arc that climaxes somewhere around the last chapter of the last book, isn't that a little bit contrived too?
Entirely - but I suggest their foreshortened arcs were a deliberate act of the author. They will all serve as examples for Covenant as he resolves his own ineffectuality through understanding theirs. That's what I mean about the themes being more important than the plot.
blingdomepiece wrote: And yet sometimes the women are indecisive (hi Linden) and sometimes the men are not impotent (the Covenant sausage fest that went off to save/kill Joan, although maybe some of the Feroce were chicks). And if the two main characters don't fit neatly into the theme, the theme may not fit neatly into the review.
Linden is indecisive but then acts. Covenant also acts, but he refuses to use his own power. That's the difference.
blingdomepiece wrote: Anyway, hope I wasn't too much of a dick and I might have read you wrong in a few places, but it's late and I'm sure you'll let me know if I've done you wrong. I do like someone taking the material on seriously, and my nature would not allow me to like any book without some qualification myself. But I think the next draft of your review could really kick ass if it lost the spoilers, and the snark. Cheers :).
Thanks for writing. Not a dick at all, quite the reverse. But it seems a pointless exercise in this case to review without spoilers, since the themes cannot be drawn out credibly without examples, so it would have to be either blacked out spoilers or just wait a while (or both.) The snark I fear is essential to draw readers out of the spell which Donaldson so skillfully casts. Really the only alternative way to make the point is to write a full frontal demolition of the plot, which would be more spoiler-ish still, and come off as hostile to the book and the author in a way that I wouldn't seek to be.

But I know most of the posts here (including my own) are far more interested in plot minutiae than the big themes, so perhaps a review like this really isn't something people want to hear.
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Post by shinnok »

Madadeva wrote:
Seareach wrote:
Madadeva wrote:Also, Linden is still whiny! ;) :lol: In one scene, where Covenant 'brings her back' from a - lets say - mental breakdown caused by the escape from She-who-must-not-be-named, she is thrown for a loop by the fact that Covenant will not embrace her! She thinks and internally whines about it incessantly even though she should know it is NOT because he has lost his love for her ... but it is to allow him to remain 'in control'. She thinks the worse of his 'rejection' and I felt she should know better!
You should come visit my mind sometime! :lol:
Sounds like fun! :lol: With liberal doses of alcohol and all your friends at the next Elohimfest!!
From what I understood, the Elohim are toast. I was actually left wondering why Kastenessen himself wasn't caught in the trap, too. I'm going to reread the part. I think the child's construct - 'made to free his mind' - has elements of divinity which excite or attract the Elohim's very nature- their Weird. They cannot resist it. This 'divine' trap may be attractive other immortals, and if so, it may be used again.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Creator wrote:In reading the other AATE thread about Kevin. How many feel Kevin is a ... well ... JERK! He has not demonstrated any redeeming qualities. Perhaps the despair that drove him to the Ritual of Desecration (and his dispair after it as a spirit for millenia) have put him beyond redemption.
Yeah, it always seemed odd to me that Kevin was THE man back in the day. Greatest of them all up until then. Yet, as you say, we haven't seen any redeeming qualities. I think he was probably the best simply because he inherited so much. Gotta wonder what he added to the lore he was given.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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