!!SPOILERS!! AATE complete novel discussion !!SPOILERS!!

[dlbpharmd]

Damn straight, Fist. Well said.

[Madadeva]

... she should have been ready, confident, and trusting. And trustworthy. As Covenant was in the 2nd. ... Instead, her growth seems not to have taken place. It's as though a new character is the star of the Final Chrons.

Did taking care of Jerimiah and Joan teach her this helplessness?

Or did SRD just need her emo and undermine her past redemption? Has he played fair with her character?

[aliantha]

Yes, he's played fair, and no, he hasn't undermined her past redemption. She wasn't totally "fixed" last time. That's what I'm saying. A host of complex emotions come into play here. I dunno who else here has taken psychology, but there's that famous experiment about the baby monkeys who were given a furry wooden monkey as a "mother" -- they could get warmth from it (and maybe food, I can't remember how the experiment was set up), but no love. It screwed them up. Kids learn how to love from their parents. There's a bedrock of self-confidence you're supposed to pick up from that unconditional love that your parents give you.

Linden never got that bedrock. So she hated her parents for rejecting her, for violating her emotionally that way. In the 2nd Chrons, she was working through the guilt she felt for killing her mother and hating both of her parents.

But even tho she fell for Covenant, that relationship never got to the point where it touched that bedrock lack of self-love, of self-confidence. That's what she's working on now. Once you get rid of the hate -- which is a defensive mechanism -- you're not done. You're still stuck with the vulnerability that started it all off.

<edited to remove snark that slipped out when I was about to miss my bus>

[Madadeva]

Damn! I missed the snark!!

[Vraith]

I simply flat out deny that Linden is whiny. Troubled, confused, struggling, desperate, and a dozen other things, yes. [in the beginning, she was fairly whinish, needy.]
And as Ali pointed out, she was never "fixed."
She found some medication so she could manage the symptoms, but she was never cured. If TC had lived and come home, she might have been. But he didn't. 10 years in the real world, and she's still not crediting herself, she's trying to live up to TC's standards...not even that, actually, living up to what she thinks he was.
If she were cured, she would love her life, take joy in it, not think it only "sufficed."

[Fist and Faith]

The three books of the 2nd Chrons wasn't enough to "fix" her. The first two books of the Final didn't do it, and it doesn't sound like AATE did it, either. I can only hope SRD doesn't write The Chronicles of Linden Avery, the Chosen after he's done with this, where he continues "fixing" her for a third series.

And thanks for editing out a snark, ali. Don't take it personally, eh? I've met both you and SRD, so I know it's not your writing I'm dissing.

[aliantha]

And thanks for editing out a snark, ali. Don't take it personally, eh? I've met both you and SRD, so I know it's not your writing I'm dissing.

I wasn't snarking at you specifically. Altho...

[Fist and Faith]

[Madadeva]

And thanks for editing out a snark, ali. Don't take it personally, eh? I've met both you and SRD, so I know it's not your writing I'm dissing.

I wasn't snarking at you specifically. Altho...

But if the snark fits ...

[aliantha]

And thanks for editing out a snark, ali. Don't take it personally, eh? I've met both you and SRD, so I know it's not your writing I'm dissing.

I wasn't snarking at you specifically. Altho...

But if the snark fits ...

Don't get too comfy, bud -- that snark woulda fit you, too!

[Romeo]

I agree that she wasn't "healed" or "fixed" at the end of The Second Chronicles. And I'm not holding my breath that she does so now, either. The time frame here has been MUCH compressed. AATE took place over a handful of days - and there's not even that much left until the end of the Earth. Healing isn't in the list of goals. 1. Save Jeremiah. 2. Save the Earth. I don't expect her to come out of this smelling like roses. I expect her to hold things together long enough to (help) play her part in the end game. I don't think my previous use of the word "forged" was well used. It suggests creating strength. She's simply being turned into the person she needs to be. Foul & Co. think they are setting her up for failure. They manipulated her into resurrecting Covenant and thereby rousing the Worm. She's been turned into a walking Gallows Howe. But this is the way of these books - she can't be turned into a tool of the Earth's destruction without also being turned into a tool of redemption.

And I'm typing out all this on my iTouch, and it's getting hard to scroll through and see/edit so I'm ending it here.

Okay - make that impossible to scroll back through the text box. So I hope it says what I want it to. •sigh•

[Fist and Faith]

Hey! I have a great idea!! All of you need to get busy now. Come up with a fake Final Dark. Some major plot ideas, with some pretty good detail. There's plenty of time, eh?

THEN!!! When FD comes out, you make a fake forum here for your version. Make the real FD forum ultra-secret, and never mention it in public. Just pm each other about it. I'll be in the fake forum, reading your fake "spoilers", never knowing that I don't know what actually happens!

Yeah, it would've been better if I wasn't the one to come up with this idea. But if nobody mentions it again, I'll probably assume you're not doing it.

Am I a genius???

[aliantha]

Assuredly, Fist. Assuredly.

This reminds me of the time (apropos of almost nothing ) in fifth grade when a girl got up to do a book report on "Little Women", which was one of my favorite books. She started off okay -- she had the right number of characters and their names and stuff -- but then she went on to talk about how they called each other on the phone and went to the movies and so on. And I -- innocent li'l thing that I was -- raised my hand and said, "That's one of my favorite books, but I don't remember any of that stuff happening." Didn't occur to me until *years* later that the girl had bailed on finishing the book and had just made stuff up.

[Madadeva]

... Don't get too comfy, bud -- that snark woulda fit you, too!

*tries on the snark* ooooohhhh comfy!!

[Fist and Faith]

Nice! Not a lot of guys can pull that look off.

[Vraith]

Hey! I have a great idea!! All of you need to get busy now. Come up with a fake Final Dark. Some major plot ideas, with some pretty good detail. There's plenty of time, eh?

THEN!!! When FD comes out, you make a fake forum here for your version. Make the real FD forum ultra-secret, and never mention it in public. Just pm each other about it. I'll be in the fake forum, reading your fake "spoilers", never knowing that I don't know what actually happens!

Yeah, it would've been better if I wasn't the one to come up with this idea. But if nobody mentions it again, I'll probably assume you're not doing it.

Am I a genius???

Y'know...even without the "Let's trick FnF aspect", that's a kinda cool, funny idea.

[Dagonet]

She's been turned into a walking Gallows Howe. But this is the way of these books - she can't be turned into a tool of the Earth's destruction without also being turned into a tool of redemption.

When he recruited Hile Troy, Caerroil Wildwood said that together they would restore life to Gallows Howe.

[native]

It occurs to me that in the next book the worm is not going to be as strong as it needs to be thanks to its favourite snack being removed from the table. It also occurs to me that it's therefore going to want to eat Kastenessen (assuming he survived his people's nemesis.) And Kastenessen is to be found in the vicinity of SWMNBN, aka (from now on) Doris.

Maybe they'll eat each other?

[Romeo]

She's been turned into a walking Gallows Howe. But this is the way of these books - she can't be turned into a tool of the Earth's destruction without also being turned into a tool of redemption.

When he recruited Hile Troy, Caerroil Wildwood said that together they would restore life to Gallows Howe.

Interesting! I assume they were successful before Wildwood "retired." A seed of destruction inside life and a seed of life inside destruction?

[Orlion]

Linden was healed at the end of the 2nd Chrons. She resisted possession by a raver, fer cryin' out loud! She took ring and staff, and healed the Land! Two pretty serious accomplishments that could not have been done by a weak, whining, broken person who could not love or trust. As with Covenant, SRD took her from uselessness to glory. If we weren't going to get a Covenant story, she should have come to the Land this time sure and strong. Though facing a very different situation than the one she had known before, she should have been ready, confident, and trusting. And trustworthy. As Covenant was in the 2nd. Somebody should have realized who she was:
"Linden Avery? The Chosen?"
"Yes."
"Sun-sage?"
"Yes."
"Healer of the Land?"
"Yes."

No, we shouldn't have gotten a replay of that scene between Covenant and Nassic, but we should have had that feeling. Instead, her growth seems not to have taken place. It's as though a new character is the star of the Final Chrons. Maybe one who knew Linden, and was told about the Land and what happened in the 2nd Chrons. But who is broken, as Covenant was in the beginning of the 1st and Linden was in the beginning of the 2nd.

Yeah, we should have her develope the same as TC, cuz that'd be interesting