!!SPOILERS!! AATE complete novel discussion !!SPOILERS!!

[Fist and Faith]

We should have her learn, and grow, and gain wisdom, cuz that would be interesting. As opposed to having her be the same untrusting, insecure, basket case at the end of six books that she was at the beginning. Is that what you hope to find in books? Character non-development?

[Orlion]

The thing is, she is developing. However, the problems she has,. Both external and internal, are different from Covenant's. She can't become the savoir of the Earth by walking around muttering, "Hate?" Still, just like TC she's developing into something that will be a spectacular success, or a massive failure. You know, save or damn, lost and found, etc.

[Fist and Faith]

Covenant was a piece of @#$% throughout LFB. By the end of TPTP, he was a different person. Everything Foul threw at him in the final battle was batted aside. Yes, they hurt him. The stripped him down to his core. But now, his core was strong. His strength and self-awareness were absolute. He knew the truth. He could ignore the pain, whether physical and emotional, or mental. When the 2nd Chrons began, he was strong, confident, ready. He was not able to be manipulated through his character weaknesses. He had to be attacked in other ways. The venom made it impossible for him to use the strength he had achieved.

While Linden wasn't a piece of @#$% in the beginning of TWL, she had many character weaknesses, and was attacked through them. By the end of WGW, she was a different person. I say again: She fought off possession of a raver. Does anyone realize how extraordinary that is??? That's as sure a sign of strength and self-awareness as there can possibly be. She was not free of her weaknesses. But she understood them. She could face them. She was not ruled by them. SRD truly did do a masterful job of turning her from pathetic into a hero. Now, when the Final Chrons comes along, Foul will have to go after her in different ways. No, Foul can't go after her in the same new way he went after Covenant in the 2nd. She's not Covenant. But he can't go after her the same way he did in the 2nd. Doubt and fear won't do the trick.

Oh, wait. Yes, they will do the trick. Looks like she's back to square one. Doubting, fearing, not trusting. Weak. Yeah, go ahead and do the same things to her again.

[Vraith]

Oh, wait. Yes, they will do the trick. Looks like she's back to square one. Doubting, fearing, not trusting. Weak. Yeah, go ahead and do the same things to her again.

No. Not the same, not at all.
This is how it goes: she has difficulties. She learns a mechanism to cope with them, live with them. Nothing like perfect, but adequate, because she's pushed back, done some healing of others, and her own wounds are scarred over.
Then what she needs most to keep healing is violently ripped away, and when she goes after it she finds every single thing she thought was on the road to recovery and health was, instead, engulfed in disease, rot, and death. All the knowledgeable were ignorant, the allies enemies, the powerful impotent, the pure corrupt. And in spite of all that, in spite of the assault of the arrogant, the secretive, the opposition, in the end she stands and acts, performs literal miracles.
It's like a deaf person finally learns to sign, then insulting him for lack of communication when someone cuts of his hands.

[Dagonet]

She was not free of her weaknesses. But she understood them. She could face them. She was not ruled by them. SRD truly did do a masterful job of turning her from pathetic into a hero. Now, when the Final Chrons comes along, Foul will have to go after her in different ways. No, Foul can't go after her in the same new way he went after Covenant in the 2nd. She's not Covenant. But he can't go after her the same way he did in the 2nd. Doubt and fear won't do the trick.

Oh, wait. Yes, they will do the trick. Looks like she's back to square one. Doubting, fearing, not trusting. Weak. Yeah, go ahead and do the same things to her again.

That's right: She's not Covenant. She never had the benefit of a spiritual caamora in the Banefire; she never had all the moral dross burned out of her by sacrifice and wild magic. Even as late as their journey through the Wightwarrens, Linden still believes herself to be evil. As you say, unlike Covenant, she doesn't get to have her flaws burned away--she rises above them, but they're still there. Comparatively, Covenant had it easy in WGW. All he had to do was give up his ring and goad Foul into killing him. Linden's the one who drew the entirety of the Sunbane into herself and purified it there. Something like that has got to leave a mark, another legacy of pain to add to her collection.

So yes, she doubts, she fears, and she's still at risk of being engulfed by the shadow on her own heart. But it's not like Foul's machinations have stopped her from accomplishing any of the things she's tried to do. If she's frightened of her capacity for destruction, if she thinks the worst of herself, if she's reluctant to inflict her burdens onto people who don't deserve them, so what? That's not necessarily weakness. Some people might call it wisdom.

[Damelon]

I just finished it. The last seventy-five or so pages raised it up quite a bit imo, but I still liked FR better. I'll join in more later with what I liked and didn't.

[indyman911]

Hi folks. long time lurker, first time poster. I just finished the book yesterday and one part about the ending has me bugged. From Runes, I got the impression that Joan (with her ring and help from the raver) was the one that summoned Linden, Roger and Jeremiah. Everything Linden saw through the translation was from Joan's POV. Now that Joan is dead, shouldn't they all be sucked back to Earth? Or has the breaking of the laws changed things? I'm just a casual fan of the series so when I have questions, I usually just come here and find the answers. Anybody else wonder about this? Stinks we have to wait three more years to find out...

[Damelon]

Things I liked:

The group hug: I thought that was a great scene! The dead don’t just hang out with each other, they have to have a common summoner to interact. The high lords had had no chance to get together until then and Kevin had no chance to be healed.

The Harrow’s death: A surprise how or maybe how easy.

Roger: Roger’s a great villain. The exultant cry of “SUCK-er!” had me chuckling.

After Covenant and Linden split paths: The pace quickened greatly. The scene with the bones, Covenant’s deal, the final scene. All were great.



What I didn’t like:

This is a little more nebulous. It seemed for most of their time together that Covenant and Linden took turns being in La-La land, unable to interact with others and leaving the conscious one to deal with the problem at hand. Though, I don’t think the two could work together if they tried. When they were both conscious They were both trying to push decisions off on the other.

I haven’t read Harry Potter, so I don’t know any of any similarities there, but SHE (adopting Ali’s usage. ) didn’t generate much reaction out of me. Mount Thunder is the Land’s junk drawer, but I found it strange that the Viles built this beautiful construction with SHE hanging out nearby.

I’m not a member of THOOLAH, but the Argent's speculation on how Linden was able to confound Lord Foul made me snort. She uses her friends, keeps them in the dark, and gets ticked if she thinks they have any other aim than first freeing Jeremiah. Then she gets mad at herself when something happens to one of the companions. One of my favorite lines was Galt whispering to the croyel that since Linden was out of it, he would have no problem with cutting its throat, since the kid meant nothing to him.

[variol son]

It seemed for most of their time together that Covenant and Linden took turns being in La-La land, unable to interact with others and leaving the conscious one to deal with the problem at hand. Though, I don’t think the two could work together if they tried. When they were both conscious They were both trying to push decisions off on the other.

It's the second two-thirds of The One Tree all over again. Some excellent moments, but probably my least favourite portion of the Second Chronicles.

[native]

Hi folks. long time lurker, first time poster. I just finished the book yesterday and one part about the ending has me bugged. From Runes, I got the impression that Joan (with her ring and help from the raver) was the one that summoned Linden, Roger and Jeremiah. Everything Linden saw through the translation was from Joan's POV. Now that Joan is dead, shouldn't they all be sucked back to Earth?

It means they're dead in their own worlds. I seem to recall it said so somewhere.

ANd I seem to remember Hile Troy never went back when his summoner died - for the same reason.

[Fist and Faith]

Interesting question, Indy. If the summoner is from the world of the one summoned, does the summoner's death have the same affect.

[indyman911]

It means they're dead in their own worlds. I seem to recall it said so somewhere.

ANd I seem to remember Hile Troy never went back when his summoner died - for the same reason.

Ah that would explain it. Thank you. Although I didn't think Jeremy got shot. I know she examined him while he was possessed by the Croyel and couldn't find any bullet wounds, but I don't think it said if she examined him again after the croyal was eliminated.

[aliantha]

SHE (adopting Ali’s usage.

I stole it from Sea!

[Seareach]

SHE (adopting Ali’s usage.

I stole it from Sea!

Yes, it's MY abbreviation...mine, I tell ya! MINE

[Damelon]

SHE (adopting Ali’s usage.

I stole it from Sea!

Yes, it's MY abbreviation...mine, I tell ya! MINE

Credit where credit is due then.

[rdhopeca]

It means they're dead in their own worlds. I seem to recall it said so somewhere.

ANd I seem to remember Hile Troy never went back when his summoner died - for the same reason.

Ah that would explain it. Thank you. Although I didn't think Jeremy got shot. I know she examined him while he was possessed by the Croyel and couldn't find any bullet wounds, but I don't think it said if she examined him again after the croyal was eliminated.

There were bullet holes in his clothes, IIRC. But he appeared to have been healed...

[Orlion]

Towards the end, during one of Covenant's reveries, he says specifically that Linden and Jeremiah are dead. I'll post the quote when I get around to it... maybe Monday

[Dagonet]

It means they're dead in their own worlds. I seem to recall it said so somewhere.

ANd I seem to remember Hile Troy never went back when his summoner died - for the same reason.

Ah that would explain it. Thank you. Although I didn't think Jeremy got shot. I know she examined him while he was possessed by the Croyel and couldn't find any bullet wounds, but I don't think it said if she examined him again after the croyal was eliminated.

There were bullet holes in his clothes, IIRC. But he appeared to have been healed...

Two bullet holes, I believe, one in the chest and one in the stomach, revealed when Linden dispelled the glamour on Roger and Jeremiah.

[timetraveler8]

Speaking of dead, is the Theomach supposed to be dead at the time of the events in AATE? That only occurred to me when Covenant recalled the Theomach participating in the council between Covenant and the Dead High Lords, etc. So Brinn killed the Theomach?

Looking forward to learning all there is to know about the Insequent in TLD!

[indyman911]

Ah that would explain it. Thank you. Although I didn't think Jeremy got shot. I know she examined him while he was possessed by the Croyel and couldn't find any bullet wounds, but I don't think it said if she examined him again after the croyal was eliminated.

There were bullet holes in his clothes, IIRC. But he appeared to have been healed...

Yeah. I saw the quote last night when I got home. I believe it's page 267 in FR. Right after the croyel is revealed, she discovers the bullet holes and it says plain as day that Linden, Jeremy, and Joan are all dead in the real world. Amazing how one line reveals that SRD had the ending of AATE planned at least three years in advance. (Well, it's not THAT amazing. But you know what I mean)

Two bullet holes, I believe, one in the chest and one in the stomach, revealed when Linden dispelled the glamour on Roger and Jeremiah.