who does SHMNBM represent or reflect?

[Romeo]

But I also seem to recall, somewhere late in the book, that Diassomer Mininderain is mentioned as one of SHE's victims.

That is correct. Confusing, isn't it?

That's what brought me to believe that She existed - probably in a quite different state - before Minnie was cast down. And consuming Minnie changed her into the beginning of what She is today.

But what was She in the very beginning? And ... whoa! Minnie is a third eternal being! Another of Foul's stature there on Earth! I wonder if Foul was responsible for feeding Minnie to She to begin with. If *I* were a cast-out god, the first thing I'd take it out on would be the similarly cast-out girlfriend of my Enemy. I think it took a while for Foul to come to the Land, but perhaps She didn't start out under Mount Thunder. Covenant did say that She had a hand in the formation of the merewives. And She is made up of too many women to possibly account for lost travelers to a virtually unreachable place under a mountain. She may have gone there in hiding or to sulk in peace. Or another force in the world may have banished her to there.

[Vraith]

Yea, I'm sticking to my original that SHE's a pre-Arch Immortal. What I see is the mists of myth. Like the flood and Noah is based on an older version, or the Roman pantheon on the Greek, which had earlier sources...only the names have changed...but in the Land of course, these things are real.

If I remember correctly, the a-Jeroth thing was intentionally used by LF for the Clave...so, Ali, when it talks about treachery and dust, LF means them to think that every person is that, remember this world is to punish...it's LF's version of both "we're all God's children" and "we're all sinners."

[chaplainchris]

As Covenant says "all this is just words". Meaning words for Mythic things beyond our conception. So yeah, I agree with Vraith. Diassomer Mininderain, in the Clave's myth, is the Creator's wife. That's SWMNBN, a pre-Arch immortal and embodiment of (at least some form of) love. Her original Name that must not be spoken is *not* Diassomer Mininderain, any more than the Despiser's pre-Arch name is Satansheart Soulcrusher. It's a mythic name, but the Diassomer Mininderain cognomen must derive from somewhere and have some meaning; perhaps originally a mortal devoured by SWMNBN, as the Auriference and Elena were.

And yeah, I anticipate some kind of redemption for her. That whole 'not evil in the beginning/need not be evil until the end' thing. And I can't imagine Elena will be left in that state forever.

Oh...as to who the "children" are, in the Clave's song - it's the people of the earth. The Clave teaches that the Earth is a prison for a-Jeroth and that it is a place of torment. This is the mythic explanation for the Sunbane.

[aliantha]

Vraith and chaplainchris: Gotcha. But it seems to imply that the "children" are charged with hunting down treachery and bringing it to dust. What you're saying is that the Clave is claiming that it's "pursuing treachery"? I guess that makes a sort of sick sense....

[dlbpharmd]

As Covenant says "all this is just words". Meaning words for Mythic things beyond our conception. So yeah, I agree with Vraith. Diassomer Mininderain, in the Clave's myth, is the Creator's wife. That's SWMNBN, a pre-Arch immortal and embodiment of (at least some form of) love. Her original Name that must not be spoken is *not* Diassomer Mininderain, any more than the Despiser's pre-Arch name is Satansheart Soulcrusher. It's a mythic name, but the Diassomer Mininderain cognomen must derive from somewhere and have some meaning; perhaps originally a mortal devoured by SWMNBN, as the Auriference and Elena were.

And yeah, I anticipate some kind of redemption for her. That whole 'not evil in the beginning/need not be evil until the end' thing. And I can't imagine Elena will be left in that state forever.

Oh...as to who the "children" are, in the Clave's song - it's the people of the earth. The Clave teaches that the Earth is a prison for a-Jeroth and that it is a place of torment. This is the mythic explanation for the Sunbane.

Good post.

[Fist and Faith]

Of course it's only speculation, but considering what happened to Joan at the end of AATE, and considering that most likely Covenant and LF might "merge" through some sort of acceptance, that perhaps WHat's Her Name and Linden might also merge? That this represents Linden's black moods?

That's what I was thinking.

[Savor Dam]

Someone loaned me an ARC a couple of weeks ago.

Given the intersection of known ARC holders and those with whom ali fested a little more than a couple weeks ago...well, the identity of the source of the loan is no mystery if you have a desire to figure it out.

Ocher robe, he wears one! (yes, this could fit two of those whom ali saw that weekend...but only one is a known ARC reader.)

[rdhopeca]

Of course it's only speculation, but considering what happened to Joan at the end of AATE, and considering that most likely Covenant and LF might "merge" through some sort of acceptance, that perhaps WHat's Her Name and Linden might also merge? That this represents Linden's black moods?

That's what I was thinking.

Additionally, there's the whole fear of possession / need to possess...and What's Her Name has the need to possess in spades....

[aliantha]

Someone loaned me an ARC a couple of weeks ago.

Given the intersection of known ARC holders and those with whom ali fested a little more than a couple weeks ago...well, the identity of the source of the loan is no mystery if you have a desire to figure it out.

Ocher robe, he wears one! (yes, this could fit two of those whom ali saw that weekend...but only one is a known ARC reader.)

I can't comment. I've been sworn to secrecy.

[lurch]

Lots of great ideas on SWMNBN. The " mystery" by the author is a bit comical it seems to me; Assigning a label to an entity ,,which is in effect saying..do not assign a label,,must not be named. Perhaps..the very act of putting..assigning ..a label, a name,,is an act of placing SWMNBN inside a box of understanding,,which completely negates the concept.

I found it interesting ..the dialogue TC had with SWMNBN. It began with " you have forgotten....The Wrongness of SWMNBN,,is perhaps that the entity is at its foundation Wrong..a misunderstanding..mistake.. by the Creator so to speak...an endowment of the concept of " LOVE" with not a understanding of the concept...?? In other words..the creator includes this Mate..this bond of LOVE within his creation...but is unable to live up to the " concept"...Seems the Creator has some hurdles to get over himself. Yes..the creator is male..SWMNBN is female..classic!!

uuhhmmm..I kinda expect..a out of the box..an expansion of Parameters or total negation of Parameters..of the concept of LOVE before this is over. IMHO..SWMNBN will definitely be involved.

[Orlion]

I'd say reminding her of her name would give her a focus. Right now, all she really has is this general concept of love betrayed and feeds on such. As a result, she spends most of her time in the dark recesses of the Land... brooding. However, if she is ever reminded of who she is... that would give her a reason, and she may sally forth to accomplish that reason, raining death, destruction, and eternal torment over the Earth. I think the Elohim do have a reason to be afraid of her remembering who she is.

[bushidoken]

Her anguish of realizing her betrayal caused the landsdrop if I recall correctly. So if she ever remembers who she really is and who the target of all her rage and fury should be then she would tear creation apart to innacct her revenge but I dont think Lord Fould could survive that destruction of the arch of time because he is that source and cause and she would destroy him before he could escape. That might be why he left her to dwell in misery and slumber and didnt risk having his boys (ravers) find a way to wake her up. The Worm is of the earth. Earthpower set to destroy earthpower and it wont attempt to eat Lord Foul. So the worm is a better choice for destroying the arch. but still I think if they told her who she really is and who she should be trying to destroy then at least Lord Foul would be destroyed in the end.

[Vraith]

Hmmm....interesting thoughts Orl, Bushi.
But there's a pair of problems here, I think.
If she "remembers herself" as "I'm the ultimate victim of betrayal"...yes, lots of destruction...but this doesn't really help LF, she's trapped as he is...you may end up with a barren world, but the Arch wouldn't be broken...and in a barren world, no one would exist that could break the arch.

If she remembers what she really REALLY is [the source of love], she would oppose LF at every turn, and support the peoples of the world. She wouldn't want the people destroyed just for her freedom, and she wouldn't want her betrayer loose, so wouldn't destroy the Arch even if she could...which I doubt...at least not by herself, which brings me to agreement with Lurch, eventually: I think first she will awaken to her rage, and be dangerous, but finally awaken to her original self and be essential to a "happy" ending, wrapped in all the tragedy/sacrifice that led to it.

[timetraveler8]

Does anyone know whether myths commonly involve a creator, destroyer, and a female figure representing life or something comparable, where the female deity is always betrayed?

I recently read a book called "The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms," and in the after word the author referred to this kind of myth as an inspiration for her book. In that book, the premise is that the creator betrayed the female deity and imprisoned the destroyer deity.

(I then did some quick Google searches and found a similar theme in Hindu myth (from Wikipedia): "The Trimurti (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: त्रिमूर्ति trimūrti) is a concept in Hinduism 'in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahmā the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver, and Śhiva the destroyer or transformer.'" But I think Shiva is the female one in this trifecta!)

I have a ton of questions about "She." I am throwing them out here to see if anything leads to an answer or more ideas: She appears to be an entity or concept on the same level as the Creator and Foul. But She doesn't know who she is. What happens when she remembers? Is she restored to a deity-like being? (Which is what happened in the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms.) Is she the source of Earthpower and Earthblood in the Creator's universe? Are the Ravers her offspring, maybe via Foul? Are the Ranyhyn her offspring, maybe via the Creator?

The comments about Linden and She above made me have this flash idea, where Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah are the mortal versions of Foul, She and the Creator, respectively. Covenant said a few times that Foul is just another part of him; Jeremiah has a knack for building or "creating" things. Maybe TLD will feature a Ragnarok orgy of destruction and rebirth with Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah replacing or redeeming Foul, She and the Creator. Waiting for TLD will be hard. Too many questions are burning up my mind.

[Aleksandr]

Are the Ranyhyn her offspring, maybe via the Creator?

Maybe the Elohim are her Children? I'm stitching together two different myths:
The old Giantish myth about the rainbow and the stars as the Creator's children (add the fact that there's some sort of connection between the Elohim and the stars)
The Clave's warped myth that Diassomer had children who were supposed to pursue Foul with the Creator's vengeance. In the Clave version that was the people of the Land, but what if it were the Elohim, and they pretty much just blew off any Foul-tending duty?

[aliantha]

First: Shiva is a male deity.

I wonder if SRD didn't give us some hints when we asked him about She last weekend. He said that to his way of thinking, the opposite of Creation is Dismay (hence, the Creator and the Despiser), and the opposite of Love is Indifference. I don't think he means to put She on the same level as the Creator and Foul -- she's maybe a step below, sort of.

If She is the Love that arises from Creation, then...? Who in the Land is the deity or demigod of Indifference?

[lurch]

First: Shiva is a male deity.

I wonder if SRD didn't give us some hints when we asked him about She last weekend. He said that to his way of thinking, the opposite of Creation is Dismay (hence, the Creator and the Despiser), and the opposite of Love is Indifference. I don't think he means to put She on the same level as the Creator and Foul -- she's maybe a step below, sort of.

If She is the Love that arises from Creation, then...? Who in the Land is the deity or demigod of Indifference?

The Worm??

[aliantha]

First: Shiva is a male deity.

I wonder if SRD didn't give us some hints when we asked him about She last weekend. He said that to his way of thinking, the opposite of Creation is Dismay (hence, the Creator and the Despiser), and the opposite of Love is Indifference. I don't think he means to put She on the same level as the Creator and Foul -- she's maybe a step below, sort of.

If She is the Love that arises from Creation, then...? Who in the Land is the deity or demigod of Indifference?

The Worm??

Now *there's* an interesting notion. You might very well be right, lurch.

[Vraith]

Who in the Land is the deity or demigod of Indifference?

oh, who cares? /snore

But the joke has a point...how could you have an Immortal who just doesn't care about anything?
Some things simply don't have opposites...all they have is presence or non-presence. [darkness isn't opposite of light, it is the absence of light.]

Even if she is slightly "lesser" than Creator/Foul in some way, I'll say she doesn't arise from Creation, but is a necessary property of it.

[lurch]

First: Shiva is a male deity.

I wonder if SRD didn't give us some hints when we asked him about She last weekend. He said that to his way of thinking, the opposite of Creation is Dismay (hence, the Creator and the Despiser), and the opposite of Love is Indifference. I don't think he means to put She on the same level as the Creator and Foul -- she's maybe a step below, sort of.

If She is the Love that arises from Creation, then...? Who in the Land is the deity or demigod of Indifference?

The Worm??

Now *there's* an interesting notion. You might very well be right, lurch.

Yikes..the implications of that " notion"...After the authors little game of intrigue with the TC and Jerry of FR..I look for clues in obvious places only hidden by the Illusion of pretense by the reader or..what we believe the author is saying,,without considering all the other possibilities. What was that the Wayhim said about their perspective? Start with every possible conceivable possibility then slowly narrow down the choices as events and circumstances bare their fruit...?

So, the question is, or is becoming,,How much does Linden Love Life? or..egads...which Life..real or Land..does she Love More? Of course, the choice is impossible. She must Kill the " Or".


uuuhmm..one other thought..." Purpose" Is Linden with out purpose here? Jerry is free and in the Land anyway..no longer autistic. Soooooo...Lindens Purpose has been fulfilled...What Purpose does she have? To get back to Reality? uuummm some problems there...How much does she want to Live?..and The Worm has begun to eat the stars...