The Paradox of Time and Its theft of Free Will

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I can't seem to quote Worm's posts... it's that pesky apostrophe, methinks.

Anyhow, illusory free will as compared to real free will. Real free will - needless to say - means that the entirely voluntary actions that one chooses to take will in some way affect future events by the nature of those actions.

The illusion of free will is at first sight a paradoxical concept. It centres around everything being pre-destined from the start to the end of time, but, although the future is already entirely mapped out, if one doesn't know what that future holds, one still can make apparent choices according to one's ethics/belief sets, even though all results are fully pre-ordained.

It's been way WAY too long since I studied any philosophy, but I seem to remember that the inexorability of events and the universal physical laws laws that he expounded troubled Newton so much that he felt obliged to bring God into the equation to provide a less depressing take on what otherwise would have been an entirely pre-determined clockwork universe. Similarly the Jansenists were all ones for pre-destination, but still believed that one should always be true to one's own moral code. VERY different from the abrogation of personal responsibility that a fatalist would have one believe in.

I've not explained this well at all - my earlier post in this thread re ignorance does better, I think.

The quote feature should work automatically for the most part. Did you press the 'quote' button in the top right corner of the post? If you want to break the post up into separate comments, as I did above, then it is necessary to copy and paste the quote tag according to the same pattern as the first. Every quote has to have a /quote and those darn brackets. Every name has to be surrounded by quotation marks.

I don't think free will is an issue. The Creator simply has to make sure, when choosing someone from the real world, that there is no mark of his influence upon that person.

On the one hand, predetermination makes prophecy possible. On the other, future events as they stand now are written in water, not stone. Nothing in the future is knowable according to prophecy, therefore all is free.

[TheFallen]

The things I do...

After some quick research, I think I'm talking about Compatibilism (and I think that SRD would count himself as a Compatibilist, looking at his portrayal of TC's moral dilemmas throughout the Chronicles). This from Wikipedia on Compatibilism...

"Compatibilism in this context holds that the religious concepts of God's sovereignty and the free will of man are, rightly understood, not mutually exclusive. The all-knowing God (who sees past, present, and future simultaneously from the perspective of eternity) created human beings (who have the subjective reality of making choices in the present that have consequences for themselves and others in the future) in such a way that both are true: God is ultimately sovereign and therefore must have at least permitted any choice that a human could make, but at the same time God is right to hold humans accountable because from their perspective within the confines of serial time, humans make moral choices between good and evil. In summary, it may be that God holds people accountable for their actions precisely because His determined plan is unknown to them"

This is pretty much what I was saying previously regarding the importance of ignorance - for God in the excerpt above, read TC as Timewarden, a being who is not subject to linear or serial time and who therefore has witnessed and served in the entire "plan", whatever that may be. Once TC is resurrected, he is back in serial time and no longer has any more than human knowledge of what will come to pass - ergo the illusion of free will.

Brain now fritzed - going to bed!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The things I do...

After some quick research, I think I'm talking about Compatibilism (and I think that SRD would count himself as a Compatibilist, looking at his portrayal of TC's moral dilemmas throughout the Chronicles). This from Wikipedia on Compatibilism...

"Compatibilism in this context holds that the religious concepts of God's sovereignty and the free will of man are, rightly understood, not mutually exclusive. The all-knowing God (who sees past, present, and future simultaneously from the perspective of eternity) created human beings (who have the subjective reality of making choices in the present that have consequences for themselves and others in the future) in such a way that both are true: God is ultimately sovereign and therefore must have at least permitted any choice that a human could make, but at the same time God is right to hold humans accountable because from their perspective within the confines of serial time, humans make moral choices between good and evil. In summary, it may be that God holds people accountable for their actions precisely because His determined plan is unknown to them"

This is pretty much what I was saying previously regarding the importance of ignorance - for God in the excerpt above, read TC as Timewarden, a being who is not subject to linear or serial time and who therefore has witnessed and served in the entire "plan", whatever that may be. Once TC is resurrected, he is back in serial time and no longer has any more than human knowledge of what will come to pass - ergo the illusion of free will.

Brain now fritzed - going to bed!

Ok, nite!

I've known about compatibilism for a long time, particularly from Kant. Or rather he believed, less dogmatically, that freedom and determinism are not incompatible.

I don't think there is a "plan," even using scare-quotes, but its just a pre-determined fact that if I stomp on your toe you will feel pain and react to it. There is a slight chance that you're a paraplegic, in which case you would not feel it, and prophecy would have to take that into account.

The Arch of Time controls sequence and causality. If Linden goes bipolar and cuts herself, then this will have consequences for the future, as can be seen in AATE. She can't very well take back the fact that she cut herself, so the consequences are inevitable.

It just so happens that the legend of white gold had to originate from somewhere. Others may argue against me by confusing white gold with wild magic. But if white gold was never in the Land, then how did anybody know about it? Well now we know - it's called time travel.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I'm beginning to see the light in Jadawin's post. If Covenant is Timewarden and has existed since Time began, then the Creator would see this and adjust his decisions accordingly. Isn't that your argument, in part?

[TheFallen]

Re white gold, I'm not in the least disagreeing with you, Worm. Linden's loop back into Berek's time does entirely satisfactorily explain the origins of the legend and prophecy surrounding white gold (that is, within the narrative framework set up by SRD... I have no idea what a quantum physicist would make of this, but Hellfire, if we don't accept an author's narrative construct, we all might as well give up now!)

My burblings over compatibilism were entirely an attempt to refute Jadawin's original postulation that everything is pre-determined, and that, since TC as TimeWarden would have already known the outcome of all things, therefore free will could not apply.

This really rankled with me - partly because it demeans the agonising quandaries that TC and everyone else go through, and partly because fatalism/hard determinism is the last refuge of the cowardly - such philosophies can be used to falsely post-justify any moral stance or course of action. I'm almost certain that this is the exact opposite of what SRD is portraying as a world view - why else would the Creator say "Be true - you need not fail"? "Need not..." that's a very clear statement showing that there's no inevitable course of events that cannot be prevented by being true to oneself - well, at least as far as the fate of the Land is concerned.

Effectively TC as TimeWarden is omniscient - he knows past, present and future, although such human temporal terminology would almost certainly not apply, because the TimeWarden is not bound by serial/linear time. However, TC as TimeWarden is not by any means omnipotent - in fact, there's a very strong argument that says if you're omniscient and know everything that is simply bound to happen, you are effectively completely impotent, simply because there's nothing you can do to change any outcome). Therefore, omniscience obviates the possibility of free will for he/she who is omniscient.

However, once TC is returned to humanity via his resurrection, he is not the same entity - he no longer has any coherent memory of future events, hence is able to act and make his own choices in utter ignorance, which is pretty much as good as free will in my book. This makes him from a human standpoint capable of choice and therefore powerful, and as we already know, it's only the powerful that can be redeemed.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Re white gold, I'm not in the least disagreeing with you, Worm. Linden's loop back into Berek's time does entirely satisfactorily explain the origins of the legend and prophecy surrounding white gold (that is, within the narrative framework set up by SRD... I have no idea what a quantum physicist would make of this, but Hellfire, if we don't accept an author's narrative construct, we all might as well give up now!)

My burblings over compatibilism were entirely an attempt to refute Jadawin's original postulation that everything is pre-determined, and that, since TC as TimeWarden would have already known the outcome of all things, therefore free will could not apply.

This really rankled with me - partly because it demeans the agonising quandaries that TC and everyone else go through, and partly because fatalism/hard determinism is the last refuge of the cowardly - such philosophies can be used to falsely post-justify any moral stance or course of action. I'm almost certain that this is the exact opposite of what SRD is portraying as a world view - why else would the Creator say "Be true - you need not fail"? "Need not..." that's a very clear statement showing that there's no inevitable course of events that cannot be prevented by being true to oneself - well, at least as far as the fate of the Land is concerned.

Effectively TC as TimeWarden is omniscient - he knows past, present and future, although such human temporal terminology would almost certainly not apply, because the TimeWarden is not bound by serial/linear time. However, TC as TimeWarden is not by any means omnipotent - in fact, there's a very strong argument that says if you're omniscient and know everything that is simply bound to happen, you are effectively completely impotent, simply because there's nothing you can do to change any outcome). Therefore, omniscience obviates the possibility of free will for he/she who is omniscient.

However, once TC is returned to humanity via his resurrection, he is not the same entity - he no longer has any coherent memory of future events, hence is able to act and make his own choices in utter ignorance, which is pretty much as good as free will in my book. This makes him from a human standpoint capable of choice and therefore powerful, and as we already know, it's only the powerful that can be redeemed.

I don't think QM would have a problem with the non-locality of the events in the Last Chrons. As for Jadawin, I'm still trying to understand his point. I believe that point is: if Covenant is Timewarden, and he exists for all times, then why wasn't the Creator aware of his presence at the very beginning of Time? And wouldn't this knowledge "pre-determine" the Creator's decisions? If everything is so pre-determined, then what happens to free-will?

[Barnetto]

Regarding the knowledge of white gold, my theory has always been that since LF came originally from outside the Arch he would have known of white gold and could have (and would have had good reason to) spread knowledge of it. There are plenty of posts on this issue.

Free will? Well, isn't it as simple as if TC as Timewarden has knowledge of what happens in the future (seen from the time perspective of AATE), then you have determinism and no true free will and any attempts to change what might occur are pointless. But if TC can simply exist at all times in the past simultaneously, then there is no transgression of free will.

I think that SRD has gone out of his way to suggest that those who appear to have knowledge of the future and guide others actions (such as the Dead in the 2nd Chronicles) are just making use of their greater knowledge to predict the actions of the protagonists rather than having knowledge of the future. He goes out of his way to essentially put the same explanation into the mouths of the Ur-Viles in AATE re the manacles.

I expect he would make the same point re TC as Timewarden - including the various prophecies that TC makes as such at Glimmermere - though the point is less clearly obvious with an entity that exists as the Guardian of and within the Arch of Time. (Since the Arch of Time stands in some way for the necessary nature of the physical universe and as causality is surely one such necessary feature, then I still instintively prefer the explanation that TC as Timewarden does not have knowledge of all future events - even though SRD gives the impression otherwise at points.)

Unfortunately, compatablism sounds like having your cake and eating it...

Frankly, I've given up trying to make complete sense of the freewill/determinism/time travel/future knowledge aspects.....

[TheFallen]

Free will? Well, isn't it as simple as if TC as Timewarden has knowledge of what happens in the future (seen from the time perspective of AATE), then you have determinism and no true free will and any attempts to change what might occur are pointless.

Absolutely agreed.

But if TC can simply exist at all times in the past simultaneously, then there is no transgression of free will.

I think that misses the point - in my view, TC as TimeWarden cannot have free will... he simply endures simultaneously in every moment of time. He witnesses, understands and serves - all very passive verbs. I see being TimeWarden as a role necessarily of existence, rather than action. I suspect that, if TC as TimeWarden could (or did) take an active hand in things, he would cause the Arch of Time to be broken, just as the Creator would if he got actively involved - their omniscience compels inaction and therefore impotence on them both, if the Arch is to be preserved.

...then I still instinctively prefer the explanation that TC as Timewarden does not have knowledge of all future events - even though SRD gives the impression otherwise at points.

I think that SRD gives enough hints that TC as TimeWarden is omniscient, but this doesn't matter, because TC as a man isn't. Once reincarnated as human. TC is again subject to serial time, therefore doesn't have any knowledge of future events, ergo again has the power to make choices solely because he's acting in ignorance, full of human fallibility.

Unfortunately, compatiblism sounds like having your cake and eating it...

Absolutely. The human backside has evolved over millions of years to become perfectly adapted to sitting on the fence.

Frankly, I've given up trying to make complete sense of the freewill/determinism/time travel/future knowledge aspects.....

That's probably the most sensible advice for us all.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Free will? Well, isn't it as simple as if TC as Timewarden has knowledge of what happens in the future (seen from the time perspective of AATE), then you have determinism and no true free will and any attempts to change what might occur are pointless. But if TC can simply exist at all times in the past simultaneously, then there is no transgression of free will.

I'll just deal with this for now. I don't see the Timewarden having knowledge beyond the point of the story's progression in the "present" (as when Covenant speaks to them at Glimmermere). I think he has great prescience, but not knowledge. But then so do all the Dead, Covenant perhaps moreso because of his enhanced knowledge. Covenant still has freewill as Timewarden, otherwise what determines him to fight the caesures if not his own will? The difference is not free-will, but where he is capable of exerting it. In the defense of Time, yes. And to possess Anele on occasion.

[Vraith]

It seems to me that most of these lines of thought are neither "explaining" nor "incorporating" the Time paradox and/or Free will. They're denying/eliminating/dancing around it.
There is no "TC was in the Arch in all times," or "TC wasn't in the Arch at all times." Both were so. There was a past when there was no Timewarden, and the Creator chose Covenant without knowing for certain what he would do/what would happen [it's fairly explicit he was in fact chosen BECAUSE it couldn't be known what would happen]. And there was a past where there was a Timewarden giving the Arch consciousness and some means of self-defense/healing/flexibility...
There was a past where there was no TW looking in on LF, there was a past where there was a TW looking in on LF, and LF didn't notice, and there was a past where there was a TW looking in on LF, and LF DID notice.
All are so. Those are paradoxes...they don't take away free will, they support it.
Maybe time-travel is responsible for the knowledge of white gold. But it doesn't have to be, and we don't know it is. Vast amounts of knowledge/lore in the world come about through direct inspiration and/or simply enormous passion/desire.
True prophecy [other than "at some point the Worm will awaken, the world will end"...and even THAT doesn't mean all things end for all time in all places] doesn't/can't/hasn't existed.
The Arch does not "Control" sequence and causality. It only makes them possible. Any cause has multiple, unknowable possible effects...the same cause might have a basically meaningless effect, or change the world...and no one does or even can know which in advance. Any effect could have multiple, unknown possible causes...even the same effect from different causes that could not both be so at same time, same place.
Perhaps the simplest, most direct proof of actual free will is that TC as TW, who knew pretty much all things that were possible to know in the world, did not KNOW Linden would resurrect him if he spoke to her. There was just a chance she might.

Anyway, just blathering away...don't slam too hard on any inconsistencies.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It seems to me that most of these lines of thought are neither "explaining" nor "incorporating" the Time paradox and/or Free will. They're denying/eliminating/dancing around it.
There is no "TC was in the Arch in all times," or "TC wasn't in the Arch at all times." Both were so. There was a past when there was no Timewarden, and the Creator chose Covenant without knowing for certain what he would do/what would happen [it's fairly explicit he was in fact chosen BECAUSE it couldn't be known what would happen]. And there was a past where there was a Timewarden giving the Arch consciousness and some means of self-defense/healing/flexibility...
There was a past where there was no TW looking in on LF, there was a past where there was a TW looking in on LF, and LF didn't notice, and there was a past where there was a TW looking in on LF, and LF DID notice.
All are so. Those are paradoxes...they don't take away free will, they support it.
Maybe time-travel is responsible for the knowledge of white gold. But it doesn't have to be, and we don't know it is. Vast amounts of knowledge/lore in the world come about through direct inspiration and/or simply enormous passion/desire.
True prophecy [other than "at some point the Worm will awaken, the world will end"...and even THAT doesn't mean all things end for all time in all places] doesn't/can't/hasn't existed.
The Arch does not "Control" sequence and causality. It only makes them possible. Any cause has multiple, unknowable possible effects...the same cause might have a basically meaningless effect, or change the world...and no one does or even can know which in advance. Any effect could have multiple, unknown possible causes...even the same effect from different causes that could not both be so at same time, same place.
Perhaps the simplest, most direct proof of actual free will is that TC as TW, who knew pretty much all things that were possible to know in the world, did not KNOW Linden would resurrect him if he spoke to her. There was just a chance she might.

Anyway, just blathering away...don't slam too hard on any inconsistencies.

I like how you jump into the fray after the fur has settled down, when more clarity is possible. When I say the Arch "controls" such and such, I am speaking out in favor of determinism, although I like your use of "makes possible" because it sounds transcendental in the Kantian sense. So I wasn't actually married to that word.

Those who have read Dune know the problems of prescience, and how it does not predict the future so much as it predicts multiple threads of possibilities. I think Herbert had a much better handle on this concept than Donaldson. It is easy to predict what you will do right after I stomp on your toe, but not so easy to predict what your next move will be after that. And there are other problems with it that Herbert mentioned.

You point out that Covenant did not know what Linden would do when he told her to "find" him. So by that example he obviously didn't know the future.

Knowledge of wild magic might have come at the same time as white gold, we don't know, but I'm just saying they aren't the same thing. There is no white gold literally in the Arch, white gold only enables its release (along with a catalyst).

I see you've come around to the view that Covenant did change the past at the end of AATE. Foul sensed his actual presence, as did the forestals. But there is no paradox because the sequence of events was not changed. Foul did not adjust his plan of action accordingly because he could not accept Covenant's dual presence there, at that time, as an actuality. And the forestals, with their great knowledge and wisdom, know better. If Foul hadn't been in denial, he could have destroyed the Arch immediately after sensing his presence. But the sequence of Time remains, therefore so does the Arch.

The only question that remains is this: If the Creator sensed the Timewarden appearing at the beginning of Time, then wouldn't this cause him to adjust his own choices which effect whether or not he chose Covenant to begin with? So there are two pasts, and perhaps the Creator did not happen to notice the Timewarden because he can only become aware of this as it occurs in the Land's time. Or perhaps he just didn't notice "before" - assuming that Time exists for the Creator who exists outside of the Arch.

The riddle is settled by asserting that there is only one past and only one sequence of events despite the presence of beings traveling through Time or not existing as part of the sequence of events.

[Vraith]

I think Herbert did have a clearer view on it.

And I never meant to argue [if I did] THAT TC/TW didn't alter things, only to tussle with peeps about in what ways it matters.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I think Herbert did have a clearer view on it.

And I never meant to argue [if I did] THAT TC/TW didn't alter things, only to tussle with peeps about in what ways it matters.

I'm not sure. I just want to clarify this, even to myself, as it is most difficult to comprehend. And anyway it was a major thesis of FR, that Linden can travel safely into the past without disrupting history, the sequence of events, particularly human events; she can even cause an earthquake inside Skyweir decades before it naturally occurred, primarily because nobody was around to be affected.

And so we see that this history is primarily about affecting people and their decisions. Killing Mhoram's grandfather before Mhoram's father was born would create another effective paradox.

So it's necessary to emphasize that changing the past does not necessarily affect the Arch or create a paradox. But it might change the Creator's decision to bring Covenant or Linden to the Land, and I'm pretty sure that was part of the main question on this thread.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

As for the question of the Creator being aware of the Timewarden's presence throughout time, including the beginning when the Arch was first created: my "impression" of the Creator all along has been that his temporal reference frame is similar to the Land's, or the "real" world. So he would have been aware of no Timewarden until Foul inadvertantly created one.

[Vraith]

As for the question of the Creator being aware of the Timewarden's presence throughout time, including the beginning when the Arch was first created: my "impression" of the Creator all along has been that his temporal reference frame is similar to the Land's, or the "real" world. So he would have been aware of no Timewarden until Foul inadvertantly created one.

Yes, I have to agree, the Creator couldn't have known, in advance of his choosing TC. Regardless of any other problems that knowledge would have caused, if TC/TW was supporting Arch/Law/Life...by definition he is opposing LF. If the Creator knew such would be the case, then TC/TW is his tool.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

As for the question of the Creator being aware of the Timewarden's presence throughout time, including the beginning when the Arch was first created: my "impression" of the Creator all along has been that his temporal reference frame is similar to the Land's, or the "real" world. So he would have been aware of no Timewarden until Foul inadvertantly created one.

Yes, I have to agree, the Creator couldn't have known, in advance of his choosing TC. Regardless of any other problems that knowledge would have caused, if TC/TW was supporting Arch/Law/Life...by definition he is opposing LF. If the Creator knew such would be the case, then TC/TW is his tool.

But he has to choose TC anyway, or else time itself is disrupted.

[Jadawin24]

I have reviewed my presentation on the topic of the Paradox of Time(Travel) and the action it has on Free Will.

I will am going to attempt to approach it from a different direction. I hope you will find it of interest and also of interest to talk about.

I will begin my sermon tonight with a reading from the book of Lord Foul’s Bane.

Ooopphhhss. Sorry, just had to do that once.

Context: TC has just revealed that he carries the ring of White Gold. In response to it appearance the Lords of Revelstone begin to sing: The song is actually in one song with a subtext of explanation. It is not clear from the passage if the subtext is song or is there for clarification. Much like an annotated bible, with subtext explaining briefly between verses the meaning of the verse.

This is the un subtext version:

There is wild magic graven in every rock,
Contained for white gold to unleash or control--
Gold, rare metal, not born of the Land,
Nor ruled, limited, subdued
By the Law with which the Land was created
But keystone rather, pivot, crux
For the anarchy out of which Time was made,
And with Time Earth,
And with Earth those who people it;
Wild magic restrained in every particle of life,
And unleashed or controlled by gold
Because that power is the anchor of the arch of
life
That spans and masters Time:
And white--white gold,
Not ebon, ichor, incarnadin, viridian--
Because white is the hue of bone:
Structure of flesh,
Discipline of life.

This power is a paradox,
Because Power does not exist without Law,
And wild magic has no Law;
And white gold is a paradox,
Because it speaks for the bone of life,
But has no part of the Land.
And he who wields white wild magic gold
Is a paradox--
For he is everything and nothing
Hero and fool,
Potent, helpless--
And with the one word of truth or treachery
He will save or damn the earth
Because he is mad and same,
Cold and passionate,
Lost and found.


That is subtext version: I will repeat the song with the subtext version included.

There is wild magic graven in every rock,
Contained for white gold to unleash or control--
Gold, rare metal, not born of the Land,
Nor ruled, limited, subdued
By the Law with which the Land was created

(for the Land is beautiful,
As if were a strong soul’s dream of peace and
Harmony,
And Beauty is not possible without discipline--
And the Law which gave birth to Time
Is the Land’s Creator’s self-control)--


But keystone rather, pivot, crux
For the anarchy out of which Time was made,
And with Time Earth,
And with Earth those who people it;
Wild magic restrained in every particle of life,
And unleashed or controlled by gold

(not born of the land)

Because that power is the anchor of the arch of life
That spans and masters Time:
And white--white gold,
Not ebon, ichor, incarnadin, viridian--
Because white is the hue of bone:
Structure of flesh,
Discipline of life.

This power is a paradox,
Because Power does not exist without Law,
And wild magic has no Law;
And white gold is a paradox,
Because it speaks for the bone of life,
But has no part of the Land.
And he who wields white wild magic gold
Is a paradox
But keystone rather, pivot, crux
For the anarchy out of which Time was made,
And with Time Earth,
And with Earth those who people it;
Wild magic restrained in every particle of life,
And unleashed or controlled by gold
Because that power is the anchor of the arch of life
That spans and masters Time:
And white--white gold,
Not ebon, ichor, incarnadin, viridian--
Because white is the hue of bone:
Structure of flesh,
Discipline of life.


This power is a paradox,
Because Power does not exist without Law,
And wild magic has no Law;
And white gold is a paradox,
Because it speaks for the bone of life,
But has no part of the Land.
And he who wields white wild magic gold
Is a paradox--
For he is everything and nothing
Hero and fool,
Potent, helpless--
And with the one word of truth or treachery
He will save or damn the earth
Because he is mad and same,
Cold and passionate,
Lost and found.

From this song, there is defined difference between the creation of the Earth, and that of the creation of the Land. I will illustrate those contradictions for the song.

I use the subtext version of the song for purposes of discussion:


Let us first look at elements of the Earth’s creation:

But keystone rather, pivot, crux
For the anarchy out of which Time was made,
And with Time Earth,
And with Earth those who people it;
Wild magic restrained in every particle of life,
And unleashed or controlled by gold

(not born of the land)


Because that power is the anchor of the arch of life
That spans and masters Time:
And white--white gold,
Not ebon, ichor, incarnadin, viridian--
Because white is the hue of bone:
Structure of flesh,
Discipline of life.


Let us now turn to the matter of creation of the Land and how it differs from the creation of the Earth. Again, I will use portions of the song to support this.


There is wild magic graven in every rock,
Contained for white gold to unleash or control--
Gold, rare metal, not born of the Land,
Nor ruled, limited, subdued
By the Law with which the Land was created

(for the Land is beautiful,
As if were a strong soul’s dream of peace and
Harmony,
And Beauty is not possible without discipline--
And the Law which gave birth to Time
Is the Land’s Creator’s self-control)--

This power is a paradox,
Because Power does not exist without Law,
And wild magic has no Law;
And white gold is a paradox,
Because it speaks for the bone of life,
But has no part of the Land


If we extract key lines from my supporting verses we break it down to basic truth.

The separate rules for the creation of earth:

And with Earth those who people it;
Wild magic restrained in every particle of life,
And unleashed or controlled by gold

The separate rules for the creation of the Land:

There is wild magic graven in every rock,
Contained for white gold to unleash or control--
Gold, rare metal, not born of the Land,
Nor ruled, limited, subdued
By the Law with which the Land was created


The word paradox is used over and over. There is clearly a discernable meaning that is given within the song as to it definition.

I offer these thoughts to continue my evolving understanding of my thesis( I learn more from you to challenge me and so I research harder to support what I first presented weakly with stronger support). ‘

The Paradox of Time and Its Effect on Free Will

Observation: Why is that the Earth had one set of Laws of Life, and the Land does not?

It is my belief that is due to the appearance of TC in his initial appearance at the dawn of creation as the fledging TW. The creator understands that an outside influence has come into self existence, outside his Law of creation and Law of Life and Law of Time. Within his creation of the earth, White Gold is infused into all things of the earth. All things. It is constrained, it is unleashed, though.”

Yet, “it was not born of the Land.” Still, the TW has a point of origin. Nothing exists in a vacuum, nothing. The Creator is force to acknowledge it presence, for it the substance that is the arch of time. He must then set in motion the creation of the Land, separate from the Laws of Life and Time, unique, where White Gold can be unrestrained. The Land itself is paradox.

This is essence of the lack of free will on the Creator. He must create the land. It must have a different law. White Gold is has no rules, white gold in the Earth does. He is forced by the arrival of the TW to make it such. He then is forced in the future as he knows exactly when from the knowledge he gathers from the TW to set in motion the events that lead to the summoning of TC. He does this and knows everything that TC does is already predetermined. He knows this for he knows that TC will become the TW.

With his actions, he creates required circumstances for the creation of the Earth and the Land. He has to do this:

He must do so; Time has it laws. To have the TW exist at the dawn of creation, The law of Time required the creation of the TW. The creator puts it all into motion. Time and creation are merged, the Earth and Land see their first dawn.

So we have the Paradox of Time and The Lack of Freewill.

These are my thoughts. Thank you for your sharing of your thought on my thread. If any of you who read this, please add your thoughts if you care too. As with any thread, your thoughts are welcome. There is always, NO harm, NO foul in what you say. Thanks.

[Simanent]

Hi
The question of TC as TW being part of the arch of time at its creation and the creator knowing this is undeniably interesting. It does give an answer to why TC was chosen by the creator, and I think this may have to do with what some have speculated that TC is becoming the creator.

I agree that TC in the LC is not really the TW anymore (now being human, but at some deep level still merged the arch, but that level is not accessable in simple human terms) but more than this, there is a moment in time (TC's resurrection) at which the TW stopped being the TW per se. The TW surely could not have kown anything about events in time after this moment, so the future beyond that point is known to no one.

[Jadawin24]

i have a reply to this general question on gradual review in apr. listing. is a spoiler note listing. woot. how nice of mr. donaldson answering.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

i have a reply to this general question on gradual review in apr. listing. is a spoiler note listing. woot. how nice of mr. donaldson answering.

Donaldson wasn't sure if you were asking about the same book he wrote.