Ranking the great powers

[High Lord Tolkien]

Some existing threads on this topic.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... light=foul

This one start off good then gets silly. Funny though:

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... light=foul

[Dirty Whirl]

One thing i didn't get- In fatal revenant linden and the haruchai blast the harrow with everything they got, but the staff of law does nothing as long as he covers his eyes. Then roger comes in and blows him up with the hand of an elohim, which should be earthpower just the same, if a bit magma-y. That one hand seems more than equal to the staff, despite it being only a fraction of the actual elohim. Disappointing.
At least her use of white gold scares him off later on.

[Horrim Carabal]

I believe Foul is essentially powerless. He can't get anything done in and of himself. He couldn't even retrieve the Illearth Stone himself! His damage is dealt in manipulating others to do his will... he's actually very similar to a croyel.

Compared to every other passage about LF, it seems like his final scene in WGW is totally uncharacteristic, with him using a physical item (the ring).

I disagree with the "Foul is powerless" argument. It's quite silly, in fact. He used a physical item (the Illearth Stone) all through the First Chronicles. He used his own power to resist Covenant once the Stone was destroyed in TPtP. He similarly used his own essence in WGW, which is why he faded and discorporated.

Spoiler

When he was with the demi-mages, he learned their lore. Apparently he used it himself to create or alter the Quelvisks

He used Lore to hide himself from the Council. He used Lore to enact the Ritual with Kevin.

None of this could be done by a "powerless" being.

One thing i didn't get- In fatal revenant linden and the haruchai blast the harrow with everything they got, but the staff of law does nothing as long as he covers his eyes. Then roger comes in and blows him up with the hand of an elohim, which should be earthpower just the same, if a bit magma-y. That one hand seems more than equal to the staff, despite it being only a fraction of the actual elohim. Disappointing.

He also wasn't expecting Roger, but was fully prepared for Linden.

[Orlion]

I believe Foul is essentially powerless. He can't get anything done in and of himself. He couldn't even retrieve the Illearth Stone himself! His damage is dealt in manipulating others to do his will... he's actually very similar to a croyel.

Compared to every other passage about LF, it seems like his final scene in WGW is totally uncharacteristic, with him using a physical item (the ring).

I disagree with the "Foul is powerless" argument. It's quite silly, in fact. He used a physical item (the Illearth Stone) all through the First Chronicles. He used his own power to resist Covenant once the Stone was destroyed in TPtP. He similarly used his own essence in WGW, which is why he faded and discorporated.

Spoiler

When he was with the demi-mages, he learned their lore. Apparently he used it himself to create or alter the Quelvisks

He used Lore to hide himself from the Council. He used Lore to enact the Ritual with Kevin.

None of this could be done by a "powerless" being.

One thing i didn't get- In fatal revenant linden and the haruchai blast the harrow with everything they got, but the staff of law does nothing as long as he covers his eyes. Then roger comes in and blows him up with the hand of an elohim, which should be earthpower just the same, if a bit magma-y. That one hand seems more than equal to the staff, despite it being only a fraction of the actual elohim. Disappointing.

He also wasn't expecting Roger, but was fully prepared for Linden.

Good arguments, but note that I say "essentially powerless". It's like the proverbial goon who shoots at Superman until all his bullets are gone and then throws the gun at him. Foul can use items (like the Illearth Stone) and he can manipulate people and control his appearance. However, every time he uses his "actual power" it's always a last ditch effort... much like the goon continuing to try to pound Superman's arm once he's in Superman's grip. This leads me to believe that what ever inherent "powers" Foul has, in the force sense, they are pretty weak.

[Starfire 152]

Ive always wondered: How did he move the IS from under Gravin Threndor to his thronehall? He didnt carry it himself. Just a nagging question.

Was the IS part of HER wedding ring?

Is the IS the opposite of the Earthpower stone of the krill?

If LF had befriended TC at the beginning of LFB, offered him the same health like he did in TPTP, might things have gone differently? "My friend Tom, now that Ive made you healthy, would you mind if I borrow your ring?..."

LF's failures stem from his inability to make any real friendships. In over 10000 years he can only feel contempt. As an intelligent godlike being, cant he analyse his situation and motives? Ask "Why am I like this?" Is he incapable of introspection?

lHe used a physical item (the Illearth Stone) all through the First Chronicles. .

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Ive always wondered: How did he move the IS from under Gravin Threndor to his thronehall? He didnt carry it himself. Just a nagging question.

Was the IS part of HER wedding ring?

Is the IS the opposite of the Earthpower stone of the krill?

If LF had befriended TC at the beginning of LFB, offered him the same health like he did in TPTP, might things have gone differently? "My friend Tom, now that Ive made you healthy, would you mind if I borrow your ring?..."

LF's failures stem from his inability to make any real friendships. In over 10000 years he can only feel contempt. As an intelligent godlike being, cant he analyse his situation and motives? Ask "Why am I like this?" Is he incapable of introspection?

lHe used a physical item (the Illearth Stone) all through the First Chronicles. .

Good point. It's been pointed out a few times that Foul's anger gets the best of him, but nobody that I know of had ever gone so far as to suggest that he should have tried using sugar instead of vinegar.

However, we do see Foul using that approach at the beginning of ROTE, to an extent.

[SleeplessOne]

Foul does try to tempt TC with an offer of restored health on Kevins Watch when they first encounter each other in LFB.
But he is incapable of maintaining a presentable facade, and TC takes umbrage at being called 'Groveller' ...

Makes you wonder how Foul could have kept himself nice when dealing with the Kevin and the council long enough to have enacted his intent ..

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Foul does try to tempt TC with an offer of restored health on Kevins Watch when they first encounter each other in LFB.
But he is incapable of maintaining a presentable facade, and TC takes umbrage at being called 'Groveller' ...

Makes you wonder how Foul could have kept himself nice when dealing with the Kevin and the council long enough to have enacted his intent ..

Foul promises his minions that he will make them immortal gods. But saying "whatever health or strength you lack is mine to give" really isn't a promise to restore these things. It sounds to me more like braggadocio. I don't recall Covenant taking umbrage at being called "groveler."

There's been some chatter lately on the Watch about how Foul allegedly lacks magical ability. I think he has the ability to restore health and strength, or just the opposite. So it's not just braggadocio. He also has demonstrated the ability to create an army of warped creatures, at least with the Illearth Stone.

[SleeplessOne]

Foul does try to tempt TC with an offer of restored health on Kevins Watch when they first encounter each other in LFB.
But he is incapable of maintaining a presentable facade, and TC takes umbrage at being called 'Groveller' ...

Makes you wonder how Foul could have kept himself nice when dealing with the Kevin and the council long enough to have enacted his intent ..

Foul promises his minions that he will make them immortal gods. But saying "whatever health or strength you lack is mine to give" really isn't a promise to restore these things. It sounds to me more like braggadocio. I don't recall Covenant taking umbrage at being called "groveler."

There's been some chatter lately on the Watch about how Foul allegedly lacks magical ability. I think he has the ability to restore health and strength, or just the opposite. So it's not just braggadocio. He also has demonstrated the ability to create an army of warped creatures, at least with the Illearth Stone.

"Health ?" Covenant looked painfully up from the ground. "You said health".
"Whatever health you lack, groveler. Only pray to me, while I am still patient."
But the voice's contempt cut too deep. Covenant's violence welled up in the wound. He began to fight. Heaving himself up to his knees, he thought, No. I'm not a groveler.

You seem to contradict yourself WOTWE, if I am to understand you correctly; first you judge Foul's words to be mere braggadocio, but then you recant this by speculating on his 'magical ability' and say it's not braggadocio, Foul can do these things ..

I interpret Foul's words as an offer (not a promise) laced with arrogance - he seizes upon TC's plea for health, attempting to exploit a perceived vulnerability, but can't keep the contempt from his words, and thus TC realises Foul is the kind of guy who laughs at lepers.
As for TC taking umbrage at being called a groveler, clearly Foul thinks he does (as do I judging by SRD's description of TC's inner monologue).

.. I see that your pride is offended by my contempt. Groveler !

edit : got my 'lepers' and 'grovelers' mixed up

[SleeplessOne]

incidentally, just after Foul and TC's little exchange concerning health and grovelling, Foul formally introduces himself to TC for the first time, a scene which was expertly re-created here :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLbhkM0LaYI

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Foul does try to tempt TC with an offer of restored health on Kevins Watch when they first encounter each other in LFB.
But he is incapable of maintaining a presentable facade, and TC takes umbrage at being called 'Groveller' ...

Makes you wonder how Foul could have kept himself nice when dealing with the Kevin and the council long enough to have enacted his intent ..

Foul promises his minions that he will make them immortal gods. But saying "whatever health or strength you lack is mine to give" really isn't a promise to restore these things. It sounds to me more like braggadocio. I don't recall Covenant taking umbrage at being called "groveler."

There's been some chatter lately on the Watch about how Foul allegedly lacks magical ability. I think he has the ability to restore health and strength, or just the opposite. So it's not just braggadocio. He also has demonstrated the ability to create an army of warped creatures, at least with the Illearth Stone.

"Health ?" Covenant looked painfully up from the ground. "You said health".
"Whatever health you lack, groveler. Only pray to me, while I am still patient."
But the voice's contempt cut too deep. Covenant's violence welled up in the wound. He began to fight. Heaving himself up to his knees, he thought, No. I'm not a groveler.

You seem to contradict yourself WOTWE, if I am to understand you correctly; first you judge Foul's words to be mere braggadocio, but then you recant this by speculating on his 'magical ability' and say it's not braggadocio, Foul can do these things ..

I interpret Foul's words as an offer (not a promise) laced with arrogance - he seizes upon TC's plea for health, attempting to exploit a perceived vulnerability, but can't keep the contempt from his words, and thus TC realises Foul is the kind of guy who laughs at lepers.
As for TC taking umbrage at being called a groveler, clearly Foul thinks he does (as do I judging by SRD's description of TC's inner monologue).

.. I see that your pride is offended by my contempt. Groveler !

edit : got my 'lepers' and 'grovelers' mixed up

I didn't use the word "mere" to describe Foul's braggadocio. But if it's not a sincere statement, which is what I was implying, then he was just saying it for effect, choosing his words very carefully around such a mighty foe as Covenant. I'm sure Foul has the ability to make his minions into gods, but he has no intention of doing it. I'm talking about false promises. That entire scene between Foul and Covenant still affects me as one of the greatest in all fantasy literature.