Depression

[Linna Heartbooger]

Yep. It was Bat Boy: The Musical. Based off of the character from Weekly World News. It was fun, and it gave an assist in meeting my now wife.

Ahahahaa! "Bat Boy: The Musical" Ahh, the Weekly World News... a fine publication. The lounge of my college dorm was seldom without a copy.

And yayness for that helping you to meet your wife - that is super-cool!

For every one person in trying to honestly help people, there was at least 5 or more there to figure out their own problems.

This... does not surprise me... and most of them probably not even realizing it.

Perhaps this accounts for my conviction that the solutions are internal and not external.

All you're sayin' is making sense. I know I'm not going to convince you of anything about counselling, but... I understand that one of the things a gooood counsellor understands is that the best person to solve your own problems is... YOU... and a good one should be able to help call forth "the things you already know but aren't dealing with." (I'm assuming we all have things we know we should do but aren't. Like me right now, having not exercised yesterday or today.) Unfortunately, we can reference Caggy's discussion for "how easy it is to find a GOOD counsellor"...

I suspect that one of the troubles with depression that is -not- internal is that you're perfectly aware of [lots of] the ways that the world around you is messed-up and so far "off" from it should be... and don't want to blind yourself to that? Or maybe I'm just projecting, because that's what I've been thinking a lot through these most recent weeks/months.

[Cagliostro]

I think my biggest problems with therapy was that I got a misconception from taking a psychology class they these therapists sit and work with you to find a cure for what ails you, finding things like what the cause of your problem is, and magically you are all better one day. It was a naive concept, yes. What I now believe they do is work with you to help you realize what the problems are, try to reframe your problems in such a way so that you can help yourself, and point things out that you might have a blind spot toward. At least those are the things I found helpful with the limited amount of therapy I have had that has been positive.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Cag- that makes sense; I would even imagine that a really good counselor/therapist would be surprised by some of the solutions that their counselees/patients whatever come up with - because it's nothing that THEY could have figured out for them.

Right now I'm at a spot in my counseling where I'm feeling "stuck" / not necessarily wanting to deal with my own problems. =( Meh.

I'm going back and reading this whole thread... maaan, people have said so many worthwhile things. I especially want to pick on Av, (for things he said 5 years ago, ha!) because I saw him repeatedly hammering on a point that I halfway understand and halfway agree with. ;P With lots of caveats.

I liked what you had to say about depression so often going to self-pity, and the wrongness of taking oneself too seriously. But then so much of what people talk about as the "goal" for all us depressed people is all about individual. (I think you're just as bad of an offender as can be found, in terms of holding this view - call me on it if you're wrong.) I think, "What if the 'real problem' is the brokenness of our connections with others?"

Holstey- ack... it sounds like your mind walls you in with options in which there is NO right thing you could do, yet you MUST never do wrong. I -hate- the debilitation of second-guessing, third-fourth-fifth-guessing myself and so on... I think what you were talking about is something I identify with. And do a lot. I am so curious as to whether you grew up under parents who were sorta "critcal churchgoing people" - "do as I do not as I say; you are to be patient, kind, don't harm others; you are never under any circumstances to show anger with me" - yet constantly justify harming and cutting down their own family members with harsh words (and possibly more).

[Cambo]

Yeah, this is a pretty amazing thread.

I often find my depression turns to self-pity, and I find noticing that is one of the most effective ways to snap me out of it. I find it pretty unattractive in myself, so it pisses me off enough to take hold of myself, if that makes sense.

The worst times, though, are when my depression doesn't focus on myself at all. Those are much harder to escape.

[Harbinger]

It's horrible how the pharmaceutical advertising portrays people as victims. That just lends to the problem; they know it and capitalize on it.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Cambo- Yeah, makes sense; When I get mad at myself, it usually cycles to self-blame and more depression... I feel that any way I have of talking about this will involve lots of self-justification. Meh!

Really dark ones that doesn't focus on yourself... ick. By the way, in one of my more recent episodes, the "in my darkest moment- fetal and weeping" thing would go through my head sometimes. (though I hadn't been on the Watch so much around then, I think)

Though I think that for me, some of the times when I am depressedly agonizing over the state of the world, there is a well-concealed bit of narcissim... that it's really about me, with reference to me "having to be so aware of what things are like, because I have the 'great moral quality' to choose to not blind myself like everyone else does, yadda-yadda."

[Cambo]

Cambo- Yeah, makes sense; When I get mad at myself, it usually cycles to self-blame and more depression... I feel that any way I have of talking about this will involve lots of self-justification. Meh!

I can get on the self-blame/self loathing buzz as well, but I'm getting better and better at laughing at myself, which I've found is one of the best cures. Has to be the right kind of laughter though; affectionate laughter, not contemptuous. With a nod the forum, Foamfollower, not Foul .

Really dark ones that doesn't focus on yourself... ick. By the way, in one of my more recent episodes, the "in my darkest moment- fetal and weeping" thing would go through my head sometimes. (though I hadn't been on the Watch so much around then, I think)

I hope it helped rather than hindered- that song is one that truly inspires me. It acknowledges the darkness without shying away from anything- the first verses may imply contemplation of suicide. But it is a song about moving from the darkness into the light...something I've got some experience with . The most important thing for me is the unitary theme- no-one, not even one who shines as brightly as the moon, is the sole source of their own light. We shine brightest when we reflect the light of those around us. Truly an antidote to the instinct for isolation that comes with depression .

Though I think that for me, some of the times when I am depressedly agonizing over the state of the world, there is a well-concealed bit of narcissim... that it's really about me, with reference to me "having to be so aware of what things are like, because I have the 'great moral quality' to choose to not blind myself like everyone else does, yadda-yadda."

I know exactly what you mean. I've previously described depression as a curious mixture of self-loathing and narcissism; I am nothing, yet the world revolves around me. And the very next verse of that song, after the one in my sig, goes:

And as I pull my head out
I am without one doubt
Don't wanna be down here
Soothing my narcissism, I
Must crucify the ego
Before it's far too late
And pray the light lifts me out...
Before I pine away

One thing I have discovered: if I can bring myself to search for it, the light always lifts me out .

[Avatar]

I'm getting better and better at laughing at myself, which I've found is one of the best cures.

It's very important not to take oneself too seriously.

--A

[Cambo]

I'm getting better and better at laughing at myself, which I've found is one of the best cures.

It's very important not to take oneself too seriously.

--A

Agreed. I now solemnly dedicate myself to a lifetime of crucial frivolity.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I hope it helped rather than hindered- that song is one that truly inspires me.

I would say... mostly gave words to something I was already feeling... possibly helped, in helping me identify what was already inside me... esp. the "fetal" as in "I really want to curl up in a ball and go back into the womb where there were no responsibilities or knowledge of the world / this pain.." Sorta like when a friend pointed to her baby and mine, both about 6 months old at the time, saying, "They'e got it good." Struck a chord.

The most important thing for me is the unitary theme- no-one, not even one who shines as brightly as the moon, is the sole source of their own light. We shine brightest when we reflect the light of those around us. Truly an antidote to the instinct for isolation that comes with depression .

Of course, my soul's counter to that is often that if I touch another soul or allow someone to "truly" see me in my depressed state, I will do great damage... but there are counter-counters to that...

I am nothing, yet the world revolves around me.

Yeah, you put your finger on it. Pretty much the most horrifying thing imaginable.

[Fist and Faith]

I don't say much in this thread, because I just don't know what it's like to have actual depression. But this needs comment:

Of course, my soul's counter to that is often that if I touch another soul or allow someone to "truly" see me in my depressed state, I will do great damage... but there are counter-counters to that...

I suppose it depends on the person. Maybe someone else who suffers from it could have problems? However, you can't damage me by allowing me to see you in your depressed state. It doesn't work like that. Maybe those of you who have it can't understand how that can be. But if you have the need to talk to someone, and you know someone who does not suffer from depression, you don't have to worry about this. I think it's like this, from West Wing. Leo is a recovering alcholic and drug addict, who went to a rehab clinic six years earlier. A woman who works in personnel gave the Secret Service file on him to political enemies. Giving it to anyone is, of course, illegal. She was fired, but Leo called her to his office as she was being kicked out of the building. She turned out to be relatively young. 20's, I guess.

Leo: I wanted to meet you and I wanted you to meet me.... When you read in my personnel file that I'd been treated for alcohol and drug abuse, what went through your mind? Karen, it's okay, you can say it. The worst thing I'm empowered to do is fire you and I've already done that.
Karen Larson: My father drank a lot.
Leo: So did mine. In fact he died from it. He came home late one night very drunk. My mother was yelling at him. I'm not sure about what, but I heard the yelling downstairs from my bedroom. She came upstairs and he went out to the garage and shot himself in the head.
Karen Larson: Is that why you drank and took drugs?
Leo: Nah. I drank and took drugs cause I'm a drug addict and an alcoholic.
Karen Larson: How long did it take you to get cured?
Leo: I'm not cured. You don't get cured. I haven't had a drink or a pill in six and a half years. Which isn't to say I won't have one tomorrow.
Karen Larson: What would happen if you did?
Leo: I don't know. But probably a nightmare the likes of which both of our fathers experienced and me too.
Karen Larson: And, so after six and a half years you're still not allowed to have a drink?
Leo: The problem is that I don't want a drink. I want ten drinks.
Karen Larson: Are things that bad?
Leo: (laughs gently) No.
Karen Larson: Then why?
Leo: Because I'm an alcoholic.
Karen Larson: I don't understand.
Leo: I know. It's okay. Hardly anyone does. It's very hard to understand.

I've been drunk, though not in a couple decades. I can smell any amount of alcohol, just a hint or a stinking bar. I could hear people talk about alcohol, drinking, or being drunk, as much as they want. I could watch people of every degree of drunkenness drinking all day long. None of that will make me want ten drinks. It doesn't work that way. And neither does depression.

[Cambo]

I would say... mostly gave words to something I was already feeling... possibly helped, in helping me identify what was already inside me... esp. the "fetal" as in "I really want to curl up in a ball and go back into the womb where there were no responsibilities or knowledge of the world / this pain.."

Being able to put things into words is important. The last truly awful episode I had- as in, took me from a straight A student to failing- I had the strongest feeling there was an explanation for it. I was having symptoms I'd never had before, like anxiety attacks, and there was something I just couldn't put my finger on...When I figured out it was the one year anniversary of my psychotic episode, a sensation like a balloon bursting occurred in my head. I was afraid. Such a simple, simple explanation. I was experiencing the same stimuli as I had directly before I had one of the most traumatic experiences of my life....and I was terrified of it happening again. Once I realised that, it all just went away, literally in an instant. Unfortunately, more often than not I'm depressed for no reason at all. But being able to put that one into words was a huge relief .

Of course, my soul's counter to that is often that if I touch another soul or allow someone to "truly" see me in my depressed state, I will do great damage... but there are counter-counters to that...

There are. "Joy is in the ears that hear" springs to mind. Personally, it really helps me to be allowed into someone elses pain. It puts my own into perspective; as awful as it is for me, it's nothing unique or unsurmountable. Knowing people who have gone through so, so much worse than I have, and still remain essentially beautiful people, is a great source of hope. Of course, if I can help them while they're in that state, that's a wonderful thing in itself. Often the act of just letting someone in there does both people a world of good.

Yeah, you put your finger on it. Pretty much the most horrifying thing imaginable.

I might have agreed with you, until I saw this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0

[Fist and Faith]

Cambo... I don't want you to misunderstand this, so I'll try to be clear...

If you ever post a link to something like that again, I'll have you banned from the Close.

[rdhopeca]

I might have agreed with you, until I saw this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0

I now believe in the Devil.

[Cambo]

Cambo... I don't want you to misunderstand this, so I'll try to be clear...

If you ever post a link to something like that again, I'll have you banned from the Close.

Understood, sir. I promise not to transgress the bounds of decency again, sir. In way of recompense, I suggest this solution for those unfortunates who viewed the link.

[Linna Heartbooger]

...I think it's like this, from West Wing. Leo is a recovering alcholic and drug addict, who went to a rehab clinic six years earlier.

That was a great scene. A transcript truly does not do justice to Leo's facial expressions and dry, blunt tone of voice. I love West Wing. (in spite of me being def. on the conservative end of the spectrum.)

Yeahhh... you make a great case for personal responsibility for steering the ship of ones own soul and making ones own decisions.

What I'm thinking of / referring to has more going on, I think... I'll... hopefully get around to writing it out tomorrow... I guess the main thing is that though his father was not responsible for what he BECAME, I would say that what his father did still HARMED him and his immediate family.

I might have agreed with you, until I saw ...[something on YouTube which is best left unspoken?].

Well, I got the best of both worlds; old instincts caused me to put off viewing the video, but I recognized and appreciated that there was goofy humor aimed at me.

Also... ahh, yeah "anniversary" stuff... that is really cool that it went away as soon as you realized what it was.

[Avatar]

I am nothing, yet the world revolves around me.

Yeah, you put your finger on it. Pretty much the most horrifying thing imaginable.

That's not horrifying. That's awesome. It's incredible. It's one of the most amazing things about being alive and having a brain.

In the scale of things, we're nothing. Less than nothing. Wisps of carbon and oxygen in the unimaginable vastness of everything. And yet at the same time, we contain an entire world within us, and we are the most important thing in that world.

That's exhilirating, not frightening. (Well, I think so.)

--A

[Cambo]

I am nothing, yet the world revolves around me.

Yeah, you put your finger on it. Pretty much the most horrifying thing imaginable.

That's not horrifying. That's awesome. It's incredible. It's one of the most amazing things about being alive and having a brain.

In the scale of things, we're nothing. Less than nothing. Wisps of carbon and oxygen in the unimaginable vastness of everything. And yet at the same time, we contain an entire world within us, and we are the most important thing in that world.

That's exhilirating, not frightening. (Well, I think so.)

--A

I agree, and I think in that context "nothing" doesn't adequately describe the state of mind I'm talking about. It goes beyond cosmic insignificance. There's insignificance, yeah, but there's also worthlessness, despair, self-loathing, contempt, guilt, denunciation, and the other uglier sides of my nature. Basically the world revolving around the utterly despicable and irredeemable piece of excrement that is my soul.

Which is ridiculous, of course. Both in content and in scale. Writing that sentence didn't cause me misery, it made me chuckle . It's so grandiose and pretentious, and of course narcissistic. But that's what the insde of me head looks like sometimes.

[Fist and Faith]

...I think it's like this, from West Wing. Leo is a recovering alcholic and drug addict, who went to a rehab clinic six years earlier.

That was a great scene. A transcript truly does not do justice to Leo's facial expressions and dry, blunt tone of voice. I love West Wing. (in spite of me being def. on the conservative end of the spectrum.)

Yeah! I looked for the scene on youtube, but it wasn't there. It really is a great moment to see and hear!

Yeahhh... you make a great case for personal responsibility for steering the ship of ones own soul and making ones own decisions.

What I'm thinking of / referring to has more going on, I think... I'll... hopefully get around to writing it out tomorrow... I guess the main thing is that though his father was not responsible for what he BECAME, I would say that what his father did still HARMED him and his immediate family.

Oh, definitely. I wasn't taking the analogy that far. I just meant that I'm no more likely to fall into depression because of hearing about and seeing someone else's than I am to fall into alcohol abuse because of hearing about and seeing someone else's. It doesn't transfer that way to people who are not depressed, or who are not alcoholics.

[Avatar]

There's insignificance, yeah, but there's also worthlessness, despair, self-loathing, contempt, guilt, denunciation, and the other uglier sides of my nature.

Ah, well, self-esteem has never been one of my problems. In fact, I usually have difficulties in the exact opposite direction.

--A