Depression

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Post by Orlion »

Cambo wrote:I'm feeling good about myself today. After so many people helping me, directly or indirectly, with my depression, last night I was able to give something back.

I was at a birthday party for a coworker and friend. There's quite a close knit group of us from my work, who regularly hang out and drink and generally mess about. I'd been on a road trip with quite a few of them, during which we bonded and became much closer.

Anyway, in the later hours of the party, I went out outside to find a few people gathered around a girl who I didn't know all that well. I mean, we'd chatted and hung out within the group, but nothing beyond that. She was crying, and her friends were doing their best to comfort her. I asked what was up, and she gave some evasive answer, but the birthday girl piped up: "talk to Cameron. He knows all about it." Turns out the crying girl had been struggling with depression over the past few months (I'd spoken with most of my the work crew about my depression. and had especially open conversations about it on the road trip).

So three of us- myself, the crying girl, and one of her close friends- ended up sitting down and having a deep and meaningful about depression. She was echoing so much of what I've been through, and I did my best to tell her all the things I need people to tell me when I'm in those states. For example, she said she was always afraid of talking to people about it because they maight think she was weird. So I told her the simple truth- nights spent biting my pillow and sobbing through my teeth, having my world crash down around my ears...then rebuilding only to have it come falling down again. I told her how many friends I had who experienced it even worse than me. We talked and we talked, and after we'd finished talking she hugged me and thanked me and told me that I had really helped her. Another guy at the party told me that he was very impressed at my openness, that he could only admit to his own depression if someone like me went before him.

So, today I feel like I've done some good, and that I offered something of worth. I also felt very grateful for places like this thread, which have helped me learn to set my shame aside and search for true, honest communication. So, thanks guys. You helped that girl as well.
Terrific, Cambo! Quoting the whole thing so it's more accessable to those who may happen to wonder in de vez en cuando ;)
I particularly like what you have bolded. So much is depression stigmatized, intentionally or unintentionally, that pointless, unnecessary shame is added to its burden.
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rusmeister
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Post by rusmeister »

I've had experiences like that myself. I was even on the other end. When my life fell apart and I moved to the Left Coast (prior to my experiences in education there and the events that led to my conversion), the first evening my friend took me to a house party and I just broke down and cried at one point. Depression was a major theme of my life. I still struggle with it. But I have tools now and know where it's coming from.

I guess that's why I don't find talking about my personal experience so interesting. I'm much more interested in what causes it in general and how to respond to it - and I find that I am not the only one - that my own feelings are common to humanity in general. That most people do not go around in a constant state of euphoric happiness, that loneliness, sadness and depression are common, and not unique to me. Since they are common, the causes are also common. Sure, specific situations vary - but the central causes are common. Discussing that may be "impersonal" but it is certainly highly relevant to the OP.

And shame certainly can be, and sometimes is, a cause of depression. But the question of whether any shame is rightly felt is pre-answered without thought in the negative. If we really want to beat depression that arises from shame, then the best thing to do is to correctly respond to the cause. If for example, I screwed a woman (when she was hoping for a "relationship" or even marriage), left her pregnant, and then walked on her (which, thankfully, I haven't done), and then ten years down the road begin to feel shame from the fact of my guilt and depression as a result, then the wrong response is to tell yourself that it's "all right", don't worry about it, just "move on". The right response is to repent - to make any amends possible, including begging forgiveness of the woman, if possible, and a solid determination to never behave like that again - and could involve a complete and total change of one's life. An ultimate example would be from Leo Tolstoy's novel "Resurrection", where the main character discovers, when called to jury service, that the accused is a woman who he screwed and screwed over a long time ago, resulting in her fall and ruin.

It is true that a parent may beat a false and undeserved shame into a child, so I would agree with y'all that such a thing ought to be set aside - if that is the cause. But I think it much more the exception than the rule, that it is much less common than the kind of shame we do merit from our own selfish actions. I just hope people will get that shame as a concept is NOT an unqualified evil - that it is neutral - and can serve either good or evil.
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Post by rusmeister »

lorin wrote:
rusmeister wrote: I find me rather uninteresting,
I bet you're way more interesting than you give yourself credit for. :wink:
Thank you much! :)
But I think the things I am interested IN are much more interesting than me.
  • Foreign languages, language learning and etymology
  • History, literature, the history of literature and the worldview of the historian selling me his history
  • Philosophy and worldview in general
  • Faith and truth (as opposed to mere "religion")
Those are things that make 'me' simply dull and common by comparison.
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Post by lorin »

rusmeister wrote:
lorin wrote:
rusmeister wrote: I find me rather uninteresting,
I bet you're way more interesting than you give yourself credit for. :wink:
Thank you much! :)
But I think the things I am interested IN are much more interesting than me.
  • Foreign languages, language learning and etymology
  • History, literature, the history of literature and the worldview of the historian selling me his history
  • Philosophy and worldview in general
  • Faith and truth (as opposed to mere "religion")
Those are things that make 'me' simply dull and common by comparison.
what you (or anyone) is interested in makes you or anyone interesting. I am more interested in the mathematician than the math.
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Post by Linna Heartbooger »

rusmeister wrote:I'm much more interested in what causes it in general and how to respond to it - and I find that I am not the only one - that my own feelings are common to humanity in general.
...
Since they are common, the causes are also common. Sure, specific situations vary - but the central causes are common. Discussing that may be "impersonal" but it is certainly highly relevant to the OP.
But the thing I'm thinking is this: There is always a complex interplay of different things going on.

Take the example of sleeplessness. There are often a variety of causes as numerous as these in play:

Situational factors-
My kid woke up, so I woke up.
Physical factors-
I am hungry. Or I had coffee recently, or i napped this afternoon.
My choices and habits-
When I woke up last night, I couldn't get back to sleep. So I gave up and decided to stay up and get something done. (worst idea ever!) Then I get in the habit of not sleeping and expecting I cant, so I have even less success the next night.
My fears and worries-
Worrying about things out of my control, and also worrying about things that I am able to influence; but don't know how successful I will be. But I will probably be less successful if I am tired!
My worries relating to genuine has-a-point guilt-
Worrying because I've been doing a poor job of setting boundaries with my kid and worrying that I've not really been "there" for my family. (because I was tired during the day that day, because I didn't sleep well last night!)

Even with the most significant cause of "what ails us as humans" being our estrangement from God and our fellow humans - played out in the soul-harming and damaging actions we take... even from within that worldview, I say that the day-by-day, moment-by-moment path to renewal and reconciliation with God and others ought to look at ALL the complexities of how these problems play out for the individual right NOW.
rusmeister wrote:An ultimate example would be from Leo Tolstoy's novel "Resurrection", where the main character discovers, when called to jury service, that the accused is a woman who he screwed and screwed over a long time ago, resulting in her fall and ruin.
Interesting. Sounds like a then-modern retelling of the Judah and Tamar story.
rusmeister wrote:It is true that a parent may beat a false and undeserved shame into a child, so I would agree with y'all that such a thing ought to be set aside - if that is the cause. But I think it much more the exception than the rule, that it is much less common than the kind of shame we do merit from our own selfish actions.
Actually, I'm MUCH less certain of that "more the exception than the rule." Time permitting, I will totally debate you on some of the intricacies of shame; I am pretty sure there's plenty I disagree with you about, if not the core "guilt & shame can be useful if they lead to repentance." Thread split it is!
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Post by Linna Heartbooger »

Fist and Faith wrote:Regarding "fake it till you make it", my first thought is that, if you decide to try such an approach, you have, to some degree, already made it. If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't think there is any value in fitymi. And the "faking it" is really just developing a habit to go along with the attitude. Know what I mean?
Actually... I started coming to that conclusion while I was typing my post...

Buuut - I still think it's DEPENDENT upon two souls seeing each-other more clearly (and positively) than before. If someone starts with the "new, changed intention," but only holds out for 20 "good morning"s before giving up and deciding the co-worker's REALLY is a hopeless jerk... that may not happen.

Also... motive.. sometimes a people's motives starting out is actually all about them; like the hypocritical churchgoer who is only interested in thinking well of himself or herself... but then sees something outside himself to draw him.
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Post by Cambo »

In the black tonight. Gonna go to bed soon and hope like Hell it passes overnight before I have to go to work tomorrow morning. Sigh. Times like these just gotta hold on tight and push through.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Oy. Good luck. I'm sending white thoughts your way. Milk, chalk, cotton balls, clouds... (Humor to lighten your mood, not to trivialize.)
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Post by aliantha »

Hang in there, Cambo, and know that we love you. |G
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Post by rusmeister »

Yeah, in my own dark times on the Left Coast, I made the grand discovery that there is also love in the world.

I had to humble myself to accept the charity (love) of others, and discover that my pride was a barrier to accepting love from others.

Even if you're in a bad place where you can't see or feel it, there is love there - including the kind that isn't looking to get anything out of you.
Gandalf wrote:And that IS an encouraging thought.
God bless you, Cambo, even if you haven't found Him yet.
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Post by Linna Heartbooger »

Cambo wrote:In the black tonight. Gonna go to bed soon and hope like Hell it passes overnight before I have to go to work tomorrow morning. Sigh. Times like these just gotta hold on tight and push through.
Yes. Hope you managed going to work, whether you were "ready" or not; sometimes I think that work and tasks we need to do can be an "inconvenient gift" when we're depressed.

If it's possible to "see" or useful to remember- don't forget that you have helped others, and will yet again.

(I certainly think of this thread and your contributions to it whenever I go to counselling!)
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Post by Cambo »

Fist and Faith wrote:Oy. Good luck. I'm sending white thoughts your way. Milk, chalk, cotton balls, clouds... (Humor to lighten your mood, not to trivialize.)
:lol: Naturally. :)
Aliantha wrote:Hang in there, Cambo, and know that we love you.
:) And I love you guys.
Rusmeister wrote:Even if you're in a bad place where you can't see or feel it, there is love there - including the kind that isn't looking to get anything out of you.


Always. :) And thank you for the words of Gandalf! He's such a comforting character.
Linna Heartlistener wrote:Yes. Hope you managed going to work, whether you were "ready" or not; sometimes I think that work and tasks we need to do can be an "inconvenient gift" when we're depressed.

If it's possible to "see" or useful to remember- don't forget that you have helped others, and will yet again.

(I certainly think of this thread and your contributions to it whenever I go to counselling!)
That's good to hear, Linna. I value that. Helping others is essential to me; like Covenant, I've had so much help I don't feel I could ever give it all back.

And I did get to work- not only does manual labour help sometimes, the last thing I need right now is emplyment strife.

Thank you all so much for your kind words. Arohanui.
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Post by lorin »

rough times right now. Very sad and filled with regrets. I go through this periodically, sadness over not having children. There is a huge void in my life, nothing seems to fill it. I love kids and so miss them in my life. I have stopped talking about it in 3D. I am so tired of people telling me to do volunteer work with children, yada yada yada. It is even harder for me working in my field, seeing these women who ignore and mistreat their children, women who have children so they can keep getting welfare checks, unbathed, unclean, ignored, neglected and uncherished children. It has gotten to the point where I avoid all children because I can't handle the sadness anymore.

Ok, I'm done whining (for now)
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Post by Cambo »

lorin wrote:rough times right now. Very sad and filled with regrets. I go through this periodically, sadness over not having children. There is a huge void in my life, nothing seems to fill it. I love kids and so miss them in my life. I have stopped talking about it in 3D. I am so tired of people telling me to do volunteer work with children, yada yada yada. It is even harder for me working in my field, seeing these women who ignore and mistreat their children, women who have children so they can keep getting welfare checks, unbathed, unclean, ignored, neglected and uncherished children. It has gotten to the point where I avoid all children because I can't handle the sadness anymore.

Ok, I'm done whining (for now)
|G

Yeah my mother sees that kind of thing all the time, working in a poor school in the rough part of my hometown. Kids who don't know what the moon is, kids doling out little lines among their friends in the sandpit....heartbreaking :( .

Keep holding on, Lorin.
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Post by Savor Dam »

Oh, lorin...
|G
Those of us who know the lengths you went to to provide for the kids you plucked out of the dismal system that you work within, how you turned your life upside down for years to make a home for them and provide an example of what an adult should be to a youth -- and then how they treated you as they grew into their own (nominal!!) adulthood -- well, we honor you for all of that.

You have every reason to be proud of what you did. The purity of the service is not tarnished by the results that are due to flaws in the material you worked with or the adverse conditions those materials were subject to when not being shaped by you.

Hail, lorin!

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Post by Avatar »

To become a little more general again, was chatting to the GF on the topic and she pointed out an interesting thing...everybody treats depression as though it's a terrible thing.

Unless it's constantly and significantly interfering with your ability to go about your life, is it necessarily?

--A
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Post by Loredoctor »

Cambo wrote:In the black tonight. Gonna go to bed soon and hope like Hell it passes overnight before I have to go to work tomorrow morning. Sigh. Times like these just gotta hold on tight and push through.
If you ever need a friend, or just someone to talk to, send me a pm. I'm happy to chat. Same goes for you, Lorin.
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Post by Linna Heartbooger »

lorin wrote:rough times right now. Very sad and filled with regrets. I go through this periodically, sadness over not having children. There is a huge void in my life, nothing seems to fill it. I love kids and so miss them in my life. I have stopped talking about it in 3D. I am so tired of people telling me to do volunteer work with children, yada yada yada... It has gotten to the point where I avoid all children because I can't handle the sadness anymore...
I second what Cambo said:
|G
I'm sorry. What you want is... so thoroughly a good thing.

Well.. I feel honored (and I'm sure I'm not the only one!) that you have felt able to share one of "the big things" on your heart HERE.

(also, you might NOT want to watch that "inspiring video" I posted in the Galley, if you haven't yet...) :roll:
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Post by rusmeister »

Linna Heartlistener wrote:
lorin wrote:rough times right now. Very sad and filled with regrets. I go through this periodically, sadness over not having children. There is a huge void in my life, nothing seems to fill it. I love kids and so miss them in my life. I have stopped talking about it in 3D. I am so tired of people telling me to do volunteer work with children, yada yada yada... It has gotten to the point where I avoid all children because I can't handle the sadness anymore...
I second what Cambo said:
|G
I'm sorry. What you want is... so thoroughly a good thing.

Well.. I feel honored (and I'm sure I'm not the only one!) that you have felt able to share one of "the big things" on your heart HERE.

(also, you might NOT want to watch that "inspiring video" I posted in the Galley, if you haven't yet...) :roll:
What she said...
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Post by aliantha »

Avatar wrote:To become a little more general again, was chatting to the GF on the topic and she pointed out an interesting thing...everybody treats depression as though it's a terrible thing.

Unless it's constantly and significantly interfering with your ability to go about your life, is it necessarily?

--A
Let's not lose this. It's a good question.

Creative people have been quite successful in tapping that wellspring of feeling to propel their work. Certainly lorin's mother did. And she's just one example. And stories abound of artists of all types who suffer from depression and who are afraid that they'll lose their creativity if they're cured.

I guess the question is whether it's worth the tradeoff.
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