Berek and Thomas

[Furls Fire]

I was dismayed at that too at first, Sky. But, you know, it was always hinted that Foul was just another part of Covenant. When Donaldson says that Covenant becomes Foul, maybe that isn't meant as a "bad" thing. Maybe Covenant consumes Foul, overpowers him within himself, thus getting rid of him forever and making the Land new again.

Or, it could mean that Covenant becomes Foul, decieves Kevin a second time and does the Desecration thing all over again, but this time, it literally does destroy the Land and everything in it...

Nah... that can't be what happens... right?

[Skyweir]

yeah or .. if he becomes Foul .. being the keystone to the AoT ... he can just let himself out of his earth prison!!

whaa whaaa

but surely TC would say .."thats too easy" .. and yeah on the face of it .. it certainly would seem so

lol .. well ..that makes for a quick ending

haha .. i truly have the most immense faith in SRD .. but as usuall he's just shocked my socks off!!

lol .. not that i'm wearing any .. but if i were lol

[Furls Fire]

LOL!! Well, you know SRD is going to end this, so there can be no possibilities for future stories. I believe that the only way to actually end it is to do away with the Land as we know it. I just hope it's a joyous and glorious end and not a devastating one.

[Skyweir]

.. even a knowledge of THE END of the Land is a depressing one

lol .. but as you say .. SRD will not disappoint .. but lol .. he is capable of such ruthlessness ..

i recall all too clearly the horror of walking into THE WOUNDED LAND .. and discovering all i greatly loved .. gone!!!!!!!!

i fear he will not pamper to the miserable wants of this audience <me> .. and will probably rip the floor from underneath ..

in a sweeping blaze of terror and destruction .. leaving absolutely no hope .. as you say .. for any future demands for more!!

i just need to prepare myself more fully for that ..

there is no reason whatsoever .. for SRD to deal softly such a literary blow

[Furls Fire]

I cry your pardon, Sky. I did not intend to throw into the depths of despair

We can only hope it will be a..umm..."happy" end?

[Skyweir]

*sobs* *sniffs* .. its ok furls my mentor and friend .. it is inevitably something i have to accept ..

<thinks of enrolling self into an acceptance therapy class

*blows nose really hard*

.. *sniffs* .. i'm curious to know what kind of .... 'ending' ... SRD has in store

happiness just doesnt seem part of the destruction of this amazing fantasy

*crosses fingers and holds breath*

[Furls Fire]

In the words of Theoden King...

"If this is to be our end, then I will have them make such an end..."

I have no doubt that King Donaldson will make this end glorious. And we will all come away from it bawling and breathless, but smiling.

Do you realize that my oldest child will probably be out of school by the time the last book comes out...and the one I'm carrying will probably be in the 1st grade... and I will be...*GASP* almost 50!!!

Dear Gods... now I'm depressed...

[aTOMiC]

Dear Gods... now I'm depressed...

Be not troubled, Furl. "There is also love in the world. "

[Furls Fire]

you say true, Sai Cromas, thankee

[Skyweir]

Do you realize that my oldest child will probably be out of school by the time the last book comes out...and the one I'm carrying will probably be in the 1st grade... and I will be...*GASP* almost 50!!!

Dear Gods... now I'm depressed...

good lord what did you have to go and say that for??? i never think that far ahead .. lol .. .. I dont even like to think of my babies growing up!! and damnit they insist upon growing!!! despite my best efforts to keep them babies!!

there are somethings that do not bare accepting!! LOL

umm this stuff .. and the end of all things TCTC!!

[Furls Fire]

I'm laffing so hard I can't breath!!

[Skyweir]

[Furls Fire]

Bump

I started this thread as a speculation about Berek and Thomas being one...but it went into a discussion about the corruption of time. I thought I would bump it up for Xar to compliment his excellent "Law of Time" thread.

[Xar]

Thank you... as you can see, I appreciated the efforts and decided to reply I've read the various posts on the topic of TC and Berek being one, as well as that part of SRD's interview regarding TC becoming Foul by the end of the Last Chronicles... Here's what I think on the topics.

That TC be truly Berek sounds to me a little too easy... in that, as we can easily see, it's what almost everybody expects, and we all know that SRD doesn't really go for the obvious most of the times But supposing that is what will happen, a few thoughts that come to my mind are:

1) The legend of Berek is truly old in the Land, and as such, it's unlikely it was passed on faithfully from generation to generation, especially during the years following the Desecration; certain things might have changed in the telling, or outright removed, we can't know about that. To make an example: someone theorized that if TC were Berek, then he would eventually fall in love with the Queen, side with her against the evil King, and so on - but where does Linden enter the equation? Is the old story truly accurate? What if Linden were the Queen herself? How could TC/Berek use a Staff of Law if he is outside the Law ( as he himself recognizes by the end of the First Chronicles - and interestingly enough, using the Staff of Law is something Foul can't do either )? Who is the evil King? Although I must admit that the growing similarities between TC and Berek are intriguing events - even his being titled EarthFriend by the end of the Second Chronicles, the same title Berek bore.
Another question: is it just me, or do the differences between Berek and Foul appear to make them strikingly complementary? A far-fetched theory: could Covenant be somehow both, or rather, could each of them be an aspect of Covenant incarnated? Berek the Land-lover, the seer, the prophet, the hero, the saviour - and Foul the despiser, the destroyer, the Gray Slayer, the bringer of doom. I would not trust characters who SRD depicts in such stark blacks and whites - especially since the psychology of his characters is far too developed to craft such two-dimensional beings.

Also, even if we suppose Berek is TC, someone said he could change the world, avoiding Kevin's Desecration and all the evil that comes before and after; but that above all he could NOT do, because if he did it, he would create a terrible paradox. After all, if he passes on all he knows about the later Ages, if the Desecration doesn't occur, then the line of the Old Lords wouldn't be broken, and the Lords of the Land would have mastered all of Kevin's Lore, and would have never lost the Staff of Law, which would therefore have made it impossible and needless for Covenant to be summoned by Drool in the Land's time of need, therefore undoing what we know, and above all, making it impossible and useless for Covenant to go back in time and turn into Berek, thus undoing what we just described - a confusing statement to explain how TC being Berek and changing things would cause the breaking of the Law of Time.

So: if TC goes back in time and becomes Berek, then he would be unable to change anything that he knows will happen. But would he psychologically endure a life knowing that all he builds will be brought down by his great-grandson Kevin? And would his impersonating Berek be enough to undo Time's corruption?

As for the theory about Berek being alive in our world: that theory holds some fascination, in that it isn't contradicted by anything we know of Berek and his final years. The fact that the singer retracts having called for Berek, before TC's third summoning, might just be seen as protective instinct: if you knew a Berek and you mistakenly were to call someone by that name, and then that someone later comes to you and feverishly asks you why you called him Berek, wouldn't you deny it as well, not knowing what this strange and possibly dangerous man could do to your friend?
Apart from that, isn't it curious that nobody knows what happened to any of the Old Lords once they died? We know they died - but we don't know whether they were cremated, buried, or for all we know, simply dissolved into sunlight. But if they were buried, as it appeared to be the later custom for the Lords - then shouldn't Berek Earthfriend's tomb be a place of reverence and respect? Why isn't it? Why do we not know what happened to Berek when he died, or even IF he died? That's something interesting to ponder, I think.

I'll stop here, or I'll really write too much... let's see what are your comments on my theories

[UrLord]

"he would create a terrible paradox"

Since when have paradoxes in TCTC been a bad thing? They almost always seem to work out in TC's favor...maybe the paradox results in Lord Foul never having existed in the first place, and thus everyone is happy...

[Xar]

The problem is that THIS paradox would not be contained within TC or the Land, but would affect both Land and the real world, in that TC comes from the real world, after all. Besides, all paradoxes we have seen in TCTC derive from no breaking of Laws, while the breaking of the Law of Time in such catastrophic fashion might create more of a paradox than the Land, the real world ( and our mortal minds ) might handle To make an example, comparing TC's madness and sanity paradox with the paradox of something that, if it happened, would not have set the conditions for itself to happen, thus not happening, save that then it would have set the conditions for itself to happen, thus happening ( and so on ) might not be applicable in this situation. Then again, it's just my opinion... I've been toying with theories on the nature of Time and its implications for a while now, not just related to TCTC, but in general, even though I'm not the greatest physics scholar of all times

[UrLord]

Of course you're probably right, but I can never think of a "paradox" in terms of Thomas Covenant in the same way that most people think of paradoxes (even/especially of the self-cancelling time variety). And who knows, it's still possible for SRD to throw in some kind of crazy time-paradox-thing that has unusual consequences.

Yeah, I'll just spoiler this whole thing, due to its being full of spoilers:

Spoiler

"The Ravers, in their excessive stupidity, disobeyed Foul in an attempt to get the ring...again...and managed to create a time paradox which cancelled them out of existence. Because of that, the Unhomed were never massacred and instead managed to sail away, the Clave never happened, and Foul couldn't find the keys to his car. And his rage caused him to explode. Thus TC was sent back to his world...alive...because he never needed to sacrifice himself to stop the now-exploded Foul."

[Furls Fire]

*bump*

Another fun thread. Altho, I probably shouldn't have read it because Sky had me laffing again, it really hurts to laff!

Oh, and forgive all the "Dark Tower" lingo going on, I was in the middle of reading it when I was posting back then.

[aardvriend]

This topic suddenly seems to has come to an end? What is for me a bit strange, because after the release of the 3th chronicles there is some "new" information about the Berek - TC enigma. Also about the white gold issue.. "how did that appear into the old legends?".

I am from the Netherlands, and so I read the Dutch version of the TCC. (what also explains my worse english grammar, bare with me, thanks )

Unfortunately I do not know what the characters are called in english :/
But I am pointing here at the counterparts of the Elohim, also mighty creatures, and one of them went back in time together with Linden, they met Berek at his moment of desparation, and that creature even stayed with Berek to teach him earthpower. and to guide him along his way to the "one tree".

We do not know at this time what the last two books will bring, but for me this is a good start in the explanation for a lot of questions concerning the Berek - TC enigma.

[Avatar]

Welkom AardVriend. The topic comes to a sudden end because it's actually 5 years old. Furls was just bumping it for fun.

But you're right...there is indeed new information. However, I'm sure it's discussed in one of the last chronicles forums...probably Fatal Revenant somewhere.

--A