Depression

[deer of the dawn]

Why are you so sure that you're "flawed?" Don't give too much credence to some sort of ideal that probably doesn't exist anyway, except in your head.

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do....For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-- this I keep on doing.

I think we all know that there is an ideal, a perfection that exists somewhere, even if not here; which is why we experience the kind of tension Paul of Tarsus describes (in Romans 7). If it were only in our heads, why would we all experience it? I haven't met a person yet who does everything they know they should exactly as they know they should do it. "To err is human, to forgive divine." -Alexander Pope

The problem comes when we magnify or minimize our own flaws out of proportion.

[aliantha]

Well, see, now we're getting into a different sort of discussion.

I agree that people make mistakes and do stupid stuff, but I don't see that as a flaw. Rather, I see it as being inherent in being human. Perfection doesn't enter into it because it's an impossible standard for a human being to meet. And if that's what you're striving for, then yeah, you'll always fall short and you'll always feel like a failure.

I believe we're here to learn and grow, and to ready ourselves for the next plane of existence. My job here isn't to be perfect -- it's simply to be the best person I can be. And that *is* an attainable goal.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Linna, honey, we're all just pixels on a screen here.

You might get jumped for being flawed in the Tank. But elsewhere on the Watch? Nah.

BTW, I love your new avatar. So peaceful.

Ahh, don't worry. My original comment was actually trying to just ironically point to the fact that childhood "tapes" / mythical thinking / hiding patterns are hard to change - in spite of evidence to the contrary.

And thanks! I like picking things that I find pretty for my avatar! I love to be by streams, and it's also one of my favorite bits of symbolism ever.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Why are you so sure that you're "flawed?" Don't give too much credence to some sort of ideal that probably doesn't exist anyway, except in your head.

--A

Well, I lie to myself a lot.
I harm others (mainly the people most vulnerable to the consequences of my actions) regularly, and I keep doing it.
And my ability to learn is currently.. rather broken.

The thing is, you're also right, Av:
The "ideal" that I have for myself in my head is also flawed and based off of false assumptions of what "good" is.

Deer- that's definitely one of the verses I find most relevant to my situation!
I totally identify with Paul's struggle: "For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."
I think he gives a wonderful description of "what it's really like," from the inside.

[Avatar]

I think we all know that there is an ideal, a perfection that exists somewhere, even if not here; which is why we experience the kind of tension Paul of Tarsus describes...

Who says we all experience it? If I want to do something, I do it, and if I don't, I don't. That's also very different

If you're experiencing any tension there, it seems to me that the truth is that you don't actually want to do what you claim to want to, (or think you should want to) do. And that's why you don't.

If an ideal exists, it exists only in our heads. Because what we have learned or been taught is ideal is ideal only in that system.

Well...

It's tough to argue with what's in your head. I'll content myself with saying at least you know it, and work on rooting out self-deception. Everything else is fine. As long as you know you're doing it.

--A

[Linna Heartbooger]

Well...

It's tough to argue with what's in your head. I'll content myself with saying at least you know it, and work on rooting out self-deception.

Except when I'm not!

But yes... one of the fruits of a recent episode of depression was that about the time I came out of it, I was saying I'd do something even though it was late at night, and then stopped myself saying, "Actually, that just felt like a lie."

A lot of times when I'm shaken up, it's made me realize I need to seek a greater vision for my life (than the one I'm functionally working with) to continue.

[Ananda]

Just interjecting a poem to go with the topic of desires, ideals and feelings on that. And this band did a very lovely cover of the poem.

John Hall

141. On an Houre-glasse

MY Life is measur'd by this glasse, this glasse
By all those little Sands that thorough passe.
See how they presse, see how they strive, which shall
With greatest speed and greatest quicknesse fall.
See how they raise a little Mount, and then 5
With their owne weight doe levell it agen.
But when th' have all got thorough, they give o're
Their nimble sliding downe, and move no more.
Just such is man whose houres still forward run,
Being almost finisht ere they are begun; 10
So perfect nothings, such light blasts are we,
That ere w'are ought at all, we cease to be.
Do what we will, our hasty minutes fly,
And while we sleep, what do we else but die?
How transient are our Joyes, how short their day! 15
They creepe on towards us, but flie away.
How stinging are our sorrowes! where they gaine
But the least footing, there they will remaine.
How groundlesse are our hopes, how they deceive
Our childish thoughts, and onely sorrow leave! 20
How reall are our feares! they blast us still,
Still rend us, still with gnawing passions fill;
How senselesse are our wishes, yet how great!
With what toile we pursue them, with what sweat!
Yet most times for our hurts, so small we see, 25
Like Children crying for some Mercurie.
This gapes for Marriage, yet his fickle head
Knows not what cares waite on a Marriage bed.
This vowes Virginity, yet knowes not what
Lonenesse, griefe, discontent, attends that state. 30
Desires of wealth anothers wishes hold,
And yet how many have been choak't with Gold?
This onely hunts for honour, yet who shall
Ascend the higher, shall more wretched fall.
This thirsts for knowledge, yet how is it bought 35
With many a sleeplesse night and racking thought?
This needs will travell, yet how dangers lay
Most secret Ambuscado's in the way?
These triumph in their Beauty, though it shall
Like a pluck't Rose or fading Lillie fall. 40
Another boasts strong armes, 'las Giants have
By silly Dwarfes been drag'd unto their grave.
These ruffle in rich silke, though ne're so gay,
A well plum'd Peacock is more gay then they.
Poore man, what art! A Tennis ball of Errour, 45
A Ship of Glasse toss'd in a Sea of terrour,
Issuing in blood and sorrow from the wombe,
Crauling in teares and mourning to the tombe,
How slippery are thy pathes, how sure thy fall,
How art thou Nothing when th' art most of all! 50

[Holsety]

Good poem Ananda.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I'm having a rough couple of days.

Frustrated that so often people try to "simplify" things with one-sentence sayings and "solutions"; partially cause I -WANT- one of those to be true.

Not sure whether I'm more afraid of being terribly important or of being unnecessary. (but as one friend of mine reassured me months ago, "but the truth lies... somewhere in between")

[Cambo]

The truth always lies in between. Beware false dichotomies!

You are a tiny bunch of ancient stardust cobbled together on a tiny planet in one of billions of solar systems....but to a few other bunches of stardust, you mean more than all the rest of it put together.

[Avatar]

There is no truth.

Or everything is true.

I haven't decided yet.

--A

[Cagliostro]

You missed the point then, Av....everything is maybe.

[Cambo]

Well I've read some books and I've grown quite brave
If I could just speak up I think I would say
That there is no truth, there is only you
And what you make the truth

[Avatar]

Sounds good to me.

Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted

Whatever you believe to be true is true, within limits to be defined by experience and experiment.

--A

[Linna Heartbooger]

The truth always lies in between. Beware false dichotomies!

False dichotomies agaaain? There should be a dude holding a "beware false dichotomies" sign.

You are a tiny bunch of ancient stardust cobbled together on a tiny planet in one of billions of solar systems....but to a few other bunches of stardust, you mean more than all the rest of it put together.

appreciate much of the sentiment...

[Linna Heartbooger]

Sounds good to me.

Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted

But isn't that first part false then?

Whatever you believe to be true is true, within limits to be defined by experience and experiment.

Reminds me of your comment on the Fear thread RE: humans in general not integrating probabilities into their decision-making very well.
(btw, I actually know someone who does extra mental gymnastics to intentionally do that! Constantly!)

[Avatar]

Maybe it is. *shrug*

Maybe everything I think or say is wrong. It doesn't bother me much.

--A

[Holsety]

False dichotomies agaaain? There should be a dude holding a "beware false dichotomies" sign.

There is. He's in Lord Foul's Bane. But the "false dichotomies" bit broke off so all he's left with is "Beware".

[Linna Heartbooger]

False dichotomies agaaain? There should be a dude holding a "beware false dichotomies" sign.

There is. He's in Lord Foul's Bane. But the "false dichotomies" bit broke off so all he's left with is "Beware".

There are false dichotomies and paradoxes theeere too, as in the real world?

Her mind bifurcated.

(actually, I'm not sure if that quote works there; perhaps a bifurcation would be a true dichotomy?)

[Holsety]

There are false dichotomies and paradoxes theeere too, as in the real world?

Maybe. I actually didn't think about it enough. I should have added some smilies to make it clear I was speaking in jest. I just saw "Beware" and wanted to make the crack. It's a symptom of rereading the chronicles.

But hmm...are there false dichotomies in the Chronicles? Covenant weighs the decision to believe in the land as one of his sanity: if he goes too far towards interacting with it, he believes it will drive him mad. But I think that one could argue that his "survival at any costs" living which he developed post leprosy was a kind of madness already - not an unnecessary madness, but an unfortunate one. His trips into town were already a method of trying to deal with the isolation he felt without other humans. The Land was in part a way for him, and for those others who visit it, to find healing. He even recognizes this as a possibility despite believing he's in dreamland in LFB; it's sometime prior to the rape of Lena. Which is why I think that TC's refusal to acknowledge the land as real is really an escape of what he did to Lena.

(actually, I'm not sure if that quote works there; perhaps a bifurcation would be a true dichotomy?)

Ah, to be two divergent things at once and therefore ambiguous is my fondest dream.