www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16158374The most coveted prize in particle physics - the Higgs boson - may have been glimpsed, say researchers reporting at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) in Geneva.
The particle is purported to be the means by which everything in the Universe obtains its mass.
Scientists say that two experiments at the LHC see hints of the Higgs at the same mass, fuelling huge excitement.
But the LHC does not yet have enough data to claim a discovery.
Finding the Higgs would be one of the biggest scientific advances of the last 60 years. It is crucial for allowing us to make sense of the Universe, but has never been observed by experiments.
This basic building block of the Universe is a significant missing component of the Standard Model - the "instruction booklet" that describes how particles and forces interact.
'Exceptional' quality
Two separate, enormous experiments at the LHC - Atlas and CMS - have been conducting independent searches for the Higgs.
Because the Standard Model does not predict an exact mass for the Higgs, physicists have to use particle accelerators like the LHC to systematically look for it across a broad search area.
The rumours suggest that both Atlas and CMS see a data "spike" at the mass of 125 Gigaelectronvolts (GeV; this is about 130 times heavier than the protons found in the nuclei of atoms).
However, the statistical certainty of their measurement is still too low to claim a formal "discovery", which will require further experiments and analysis.
Nevertheless, the results have generated enormous excitement among particle physicists.
Prof Stefan Soldner-Rembold, from the University of Manchester, called the quality of the LHC's results "exceptional", adding: "Within one year we will probably know whether the Higgs particle exists, but it is likely not going to be a Christmas present."
Greatest Discovery of Our Lifetime: Higgs Boson
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Greatest Discovery of Our Lifetime: Higgs Boson
Looks like we're on the verge of discovery! It could happen next year.
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For those of us who don't normally follow such science, and who need a little more explanation, here is Brian Green's take on the announcement.
Brian Greene Reacts to Today's CERN Announcement
Brian Greene Reacts to Today's CERN Announcement

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Nope. I'm usually pretty good at understanding this stuff but I think I need the comic book version or something.
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I'm confused. Halp me.
What exactly are they trying to find here?
This basic building block of the Universe
If it has decay products, how is it the basic building block of the universe? Wouldn't the decay products be the basic building blocks?but, rather, they infer its presence by seeing its decay products.
What exactly are they trying to find here?
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It doesn't say it is the basic building block, uniquely.
Fundamental particles can still decay into less massive particles. In particular particles like the W and Z bosons, and the Higgs itself, only exist in the brief periods of interaction of other particles, forming and decaying as part of the interaction.
Fundamental particles can still decay into less massive particles. In particular particles like the W and Z bosons, and the Higgs itself, only exist in the brief periods of interaction of other particles, forming and decaying as part of the interaction.
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It's an odd thing, because it's counter to how we think in normal life...but unless almost everything we know is nearly black is white variety of wrong, it has to be there.Holsety wrote:I'm confused. Halp me.This basic building block of the UniverseIf it has decay products, how is it the basic building block of the universe? Wouldn't the decay products be the basic building blocks?but, rather, they infer its presence by seeing its decay products.
What exactly are they trying to find here?
there isn't anything we know that doesn't somehow depend on mass. without mass nothing anywhere anytime at all even resembles what we think of as anything. The universe is not made of things building up...it is made of things falling apart.
Higgs is mass. If you think quantum is weird, inexplicable, beyond understanding...quantum is to a higgsless universe as 'see spot run' is to 'Hamlet.'
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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
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the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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From TheGodParticle.com
Basically, we've got a wonderfully successful model of how the most fundamental pieces of the universe (particles and the fields which describe how they interact) work. This theory predicted dozens of fundamental particles, which have been painstakingly confirmed by experiment for decades. But it all depends upon the Higgs Boson, which is the last one to be still be unconfirmed. Without it, the theory would be entirely different. Our working model for the 20th-21th century physics would be wrong. However, most scientists believe it exists, and the proof of its existence would complete the Standard Model ... just a monumental achievement for mankind. It would be proof that we've correctly figured out the biggest puzzle of the universe, how all the pieces fit together.
However, there would still be important questions left ... like how the universe came into being from nothing in the first place ... and I believe it would still be a question of how quantum mechanics and particle physics connects with general relativity (connecting our "theory of the small" to the "theory of the big"). However, in terms of particles and forces--the practical bits, matter itself, the things we can get our hands on and do stuff with--works, this would be the final piece.
From CNN:Higgs boson is a hypothetical elementary particle predicted to exist by the Standard Model of particle physics. It is the only Standard Model particle not yet observed. An experimental observation of it would help to explain how otherwise massless elementary particles cause matter to have mass. If it exists, the Higgs boson is an integral and pervasive component of the material world.
How is Higgs boson important?
It plays a key role in the standard model of physics (the theory on which physicists base their whole understanding of matter), proving the existence or absence of the Higgs boson could change the entire foundation of physics, indicating the existence of particles and forces not yet imagined and paving the way for an entirely new set of laws.
"The Higgs boson is interesting because it is the only reasonable explanation we have for the origin of mass," says Dave Rainwater, a researcher at FermiLab. "Without the Higgs, all fundamental particles would be massless, and the universe would be very different. The weak nuclear forces wouldn't be weak at all, for instance, so the elemental composition of the cosmos would be radically different, stars would shine differently, and we probably wouldn't exist."
And the payoff for whoever discovers the Higgs boson? Nothing less than a Nobel Prize. "Its discovery would be one of the crowning achievements of modern science, and validate decades of intense research," says John Conway, a professor at Rutgers
www.cnn.com/2011/12/13/world/europe/hig ... index.htmlWhat is the Higgs boson?
The Standard Model of particle physics lays out the basics of how elementary particles and forces interact in the universe. But the theory crucially fails to explain how particles actually get their mass.
Particles, or bits of matter, range in size and can be larger or smaller than atoms. Electrons, protons and neutrons, for instance, are the subatomic particles that make up an atom.
Scientists believe that the Higgs boson is the particle that gives all matter its mass.
Experts know that elementary particles like quarks and electrons are the foundation upon which all matter in the universe is built. They believe the elusive Higgs boson gives the particles mass and fills in one of the key holes in modern physics.
...
Why is finding the Higgs boson so important?
While finding the Higgs boson won't tell us everything we need to know about how the universe works, it will fill in a huge hole in the Standard Model that has existed for more than 50 years, according to experts.
"The Higgs boson is the last missing piece of our current understanding of the most fundamental nature of the universe," Martin Archer, a physicist at Imperial College in London, told CNN.
"Only now with the LHC [Large Hadron Collider] are we able to really tick that box off and say 'This is how the universe works, or at least we think it does'."
"It's not the be all and end all -- but in terms of what can we say practically about the world and how the world is, it actually tells us a lot."
Gordon Kane, director of the Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics, added that finding evidence of the Higgs boson would be a "very wonderful success of science and of people for four centuries."
Basically, we've got a wonderfully successful model of how the most fundamental pieces of the universe (particles and the fields which describe how they interact) work. This theory predicted dozens of fundamental particles, which have been painstakingly confirmed by experiment for decades. But it all depends upon the Higgs Boson, which is the last one to be still be unconfirmed. Without it, the theory would be entirely different. Our working model for the 20th-21th century physics would be wrong. However, most scientists believe it exists, and the proof of its existence would complete the Standard Model ... just a monumental achievement for mankind. It would be proof that we've correctly figured out the biggest puzzle of the universe, how all the pieces fit together.
However, there would still be important questions left ... like how the universe came into being from nothing in the first place ... and I believe it would still be a question of how quantum mechanics and particle physics connects with general relativity (connecting our "theory of the small" to the "theory of the big"). However, in terms of particles and forces--the practical bits, matter itself, the things we can get our hands on and do stuff with--works, this would be the final piece.
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
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Yes, it would in some ways be much more interesting if Higgs was found to not exist. Quite often some of the most remarkable discoveries are not 'Eureka!' moments but rather 'That's funny, I wasn't expecting that!'.Avatar wrote:Makes sense, thanks. This is just about proving one of their necessary assumptions right or wrong I guess.
Actually, wouldn't it be more interesting if they proved it didn't exist?
--A
In terms of practical application of the Higgs (assuming of course that it does actually exist) then how knows?! Electricity was known about for ages before it was put to large scale practical use. Go back 150 years for example and the sorts of things we use elecricity for today would have been inconceivable - imagine what things may be like in 150 years time.
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Proving a negative? Pshaw. But I think I know what you mean - it would be interesting if they failed to find it.Avatar wrote:Makes sense, thanks. This is just about proving one of their necessary assumptions right or wrong I guess.
Actually, wouldn't it be more interesting if they proved it didn't exist?
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Failing to find it would indeed prove it doesn't exist. It couldn't be "hiding" anywhere else. The "where" are certain energy levels necessary to reveal it. If it's revealed at different energy levels than predicted, then it would no longer be the Higgs Boson. It would be something else.
I'm not sure what the practical applications would be, considering it takes the largest particle accelerator ever built in order to find it. But it would confirm our understanding of matter ... much like the discovery of DNA confirms our understanding of how biological organisms are built out of molecules. It has taken decades to finally start putting the discovery of DNA to use, but the possibilities are endless. Knowledge is control.
I'm not sure what the practical applications would be, considering it takes the largest particle accelerator ever built in order to find it. But it would confirm our understanding of matter ... much like the discovery of DNA confirms our understanding of how biological organisms are built out of molecules. It has taken decades to finally start putting the discovery of DNA to use, but the possibilities are endless. Knowledge is control.
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It's actually interesting that it's as light as it seems it might be: because that means the LHC is more than powerful enough to discover all kinds of other stuff that might be/happen at greater energies than higgs. [like particles necessary for supersymmetry, I think]
also, being as light as it is makes it easier to look at it a lot, in lots of different ways. that matters cuz there's more than one possibility out there...the standard model predicts one and only one kind of higgs with specific properties. but some theories [again, I think supersymmetry is one of them] say there could be multiple kinds of higgs, which still means having to change the standard, though some just extend/supplement it, while others are more damaging.
The amazing thing to me is that if there isn't a Higgs, this will be the first real prediction of quantum theory that was wrong. [the fabric of the cosmos show I mentioned elsewhere said that...as strange as quantum is, it hasn't been wrong once since the beginning...people have, but not the theory].
also, being as light as it is makes it easier to look at it a lot, in lots of different ways. that matters cuz there's more than one possibility out there...the standard model predicts one and only one kind of higgs with specific properties. but some theories [again, I think supersymmetry is one of them] say there could be multiple kinds of higgs, which still means having to change the standard, though some just extend/supplement it, while others are more damaging.
The amazing thing to me is that if there isn't a Higgs, this will be the first real prediction of quantum theory that was wrong. [the fabric of the cosmos show I mentioned elsewhere said that...as strange as quantum is, it hasn't been wrong once since the beginning...people have, but not the theory].
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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The interesting thing to me is how the guys at CERN are proceeding toward finding the HB by establishing 'where it is not' rather than where it is. There is a range of something (I forget quite what) within which the particle must be found, and over the years various teams have gradually reduced this range more and more by eliminating chunks of it piecemeal. the remaining section(s) are so small that it is predicted that within the next year or so the boson will either be found or - many think more interestingly - not. One theoretical guy I saw interviewed (as opposed to the applied guys at CERN) who had been awarded a Nobel prize for work in the field said it was quite nerve wracking to know that in the next few months all his work for the last quater century would either be vindicated - or binned!
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
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....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
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So...the Higgs Boson gives other particles mass, according to the theory.
What gives the Higgs Boson its mass? Other Higgs Bosons? Itself?
Honestly, I would prefer it if the research ruled out any possibility of a Higgs Boson existing because this would force quantum physicists to reexamine their fundamental principles and figure out where they made their mistake(s).
When pursuing knowledge the most dangerous mistake is not ignorance; rather, it is the illusion of knowledge.
What gives the Higgs Boson its mass? Other Higgs Bosons? Itself?
Honestly, I would prefer it if the research ruled out any possibility of a Higgs Boson existing because this would force quantum physicists to reexamine their fundamental principles and figure out where they made their mistake(s).
When pursuing knowledge the most dangerous mistake is not ignorance; rather, it is the illusion of knowledge.
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To quote Richard Fenyman on this "Science is what we learn about how to keep from fooling ourselves".Hashi Lebwohl wrote:When pursuing knowledge the most dangerous mistake is not ignorance; rather, it is the illusion of knowledge.
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
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As near as I can tell, the existence of the Higgs Boson (or the lack thereof) won't really affect 'quantum mechanics'. It'll essentially affect the 'Standard Model of Particle Physics' which, in of itself, would still have plenty of problems even with the discovery of the Higgs Boson... the discovery of the Higgs Boson would just lend it more credence.
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