The Golden Compass & His Dark Materials discussion
Moderator: I'm Murrin
Deer, a question in response to your last comments in that thread?
How does one earn the right to criticise (at any level)?
How does one earn the right to criticise (at any level)?
^"Amusing, worth talking to, completely insane...pick your favourite." - Avatar
https://variousglimpses.wordpress.com
https://variousglimpses.wordpress.com
- deer of the dawn
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 6758
- Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:48 pm
- Location: Jos, Nigeria
- Contact:
Good question, Cambo. The right to criticize would have to perhaps include a balanced perspective, in which the critic acknowledged the good in something, not just used it as a two-dimensional villain, or to borrow a kind of credibility. We're not talking about Hitler here, but the Church-- in many areas of the world (still) the only resource providing health care, education, and hope to the impoverished. It's about a lot more than control and power. And his use of esoteric factoids about angels to add a veneer of spiritual authority was cheap.
I feel so mean and harsh!! Did anyone notice how much I said I loved the books??!? *runs to the hug thread*
I feel so mean and harsh!! Did anyone notice how much I said I loved the books??!? *runs to the hug thread*
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria
ahhhh... if only all our creativity in wickedness could be fixed by "Corrupt a Wish." - Linna Heartlistener
ahhhh... if only all our creativity in wickedness could be fixed by "Corrupt a Wish." - Linna Heartlistener
- Lady Revel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:15 pm
- Location: Daytona Beach
- Lady Revel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:15 pm
- Location: Daytona Beach
- Lady Revel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:15 pm
- Location: Daytona Beach
Reliability, Av. Dependable rocks to cling to in a stormy sea
^"Amusing, worth talking to, completely insane...pick your favourite." - Avatar
https://variousglimpses.wordpress.com
https://variousglimpses.wordpress.com
- peter
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 11616
- Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:08 am
- Location: Another time. Another place.
- Been thanked: 6 times
It's been a long time, but IIRC I thought they tackled really dark and difficult subjects in view of the young minds the were aimed at. Pullman came across as the Dawkins of adolescent aimed novelists and his 'God/religion bad, secular/atheist good' approach in my view amounted to little more than atheist-humanist propaganda aimed at young impressionable minds. To tie the Church of the novels to a thinly disguised version of the concentration camps was a pretty low trick given that that is the kind of association that sticks in young minds.
Like Av, IIRC I thought the second book the best, but by the third the story had descended into an almost outright attack on any kind of belief and became a pretty confused and ill-structured affair to boot. By the end I was not sure who had won, what they had won and why they had won it! But by then I no longer cared anyway.
Like Av, IIRC I thought the second book the best, but by the third the story had descended into an almost outright attack on any kind of belief and became a pretty confused and ill-structured affair to boot. By the end I was not sure who had won, what they had won and why they had won it! But by then I no longer cared anyway.
Your politicians screwed you over and you are suprised by this?
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- peter
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 11616
- Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:08 am
- Location: Another time. Another place.
- Been thanked: 6 times
Well Pullman (I think, but might be wrong) has been up alongside Dawkins (on stage that is) at these atheist/humanist rally's, and if so I guess there might be something of that in the works. But it's entirely possible I've misread the books and created a non-existant metaphor that just wasn't there........errr........
Your politicians screwed you over and you are suprised by this?
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- ussusimiel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5346
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
- Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
You have it right, peter. I only read the first book and found that there was a distinctly materialist theme to the books that is portrayed as 'good' in contrast to the 'bad' religion. I have no doubt that someone like Dawkins would just love it!
u.
u.
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
- Orlion
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
- Location: Getting there...
- Been thanked: 1 time
It's also important to note that a series can be bad not because it attacks your ideas but just in execution in general.
I am not a fan of His Dark Materials, but do you also critique the Chronicles of Narnia for being a thinly veiled Christian Propaganda piece aimed at impressionable young minds? Do you make such connections such as, "This is the sort of book Pat Robertson may like"?
I am not a fan of His Dark Materials, but do you also critique the Chronicles of Narnia for being a thinly veiled Christian Propaganda piece aimed at impressionable young minds? Do you make such connections such as, "This is the sort of book Pat Robertson may like"?
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
- ussusimiel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5346
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
- Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
Not sure if this is directed to me, but I'll pick it up anyway. I thought the writing and storytelling in The Golden Compass were quite good. It may simply be that overt polemic doesn't sit well with me. I read some of the Narnia books when I was young and wouldn't even have noticed the religious allegory in them. Yet as soon as I started TGC I knew what was coming at me. I had a similar experience with David Weber's Safehold series and I still managed to read on (maybe because it was for adults rather than YA).Orlion wrote:It's also important to note that a series can be bad not because it attacks your ideas but just in execution in general.
I am not a fan of His Dark Materials, but do you also critique the Chronicles of Narnia for being a thinly veiled Christian Propaganda piece aimed at impressionable young minds? Do you make such connections such as, "This is the sort of book Pat Robertson may like"?
I also get it a bit when a clearly libertarian message is being pushed (can't take much of Heinlein, for example, although Stranger in a Strange Land was okay). So, yeah, maybe when the politics doesn't sit well with my own and it is overt, that is a factor. But, I think that I generally don't mind any sort of philosophy, religion, ideology etc. when it is integrated into the story. People like Ursula le Guin and L.E. Modesitt Jr. are not afraid to tackle stuff like that fairly directly and yet because it is subordinate to the needs of the story it doesn't bother me.
u.
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
- ussusimiel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5346
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
- Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland