Thoughts on re-reading

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The Eighth Ward
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Post by The Eighth Ward »

Thank you Ussusimiel.
ussusimiel wrote:
Why do you refer to the 'blue' books? Are those the middle books of the trilogies?
Well, not so much that, and they do not leave me in a blue mood either.

I have the original U.S. paperback version of TIW from Del Rey - a blue cover with an image of Mhoram beseeching the Forestal.

I also have the original U.S. hardback of TOT, also a blue cover with an image of Elemesnedene.

No more complicated than that... :P

I hear you - Troy is not a really complicated character, and his sacrifice redeems him in the end, which is fundamental and necessary for the ongoing story. My reaction is much more emotional than rational. I suppose I should be grateful, for without Caer Caveral we would not have the quote "And the woman of your world would raise grim shades here".

I'll have to dig up the thread you mentioned. In my lurking I have typically found Wayfriend's postings to be excellent. I feel confident this one will not disappoint. Thanks for the recommendation.

And in the re-read I am just now approaching the point where the Questimoon sweeps them along towards the Heart of Arrogance.

One of my favorite things about TOT is the increase in obscure word use, and I have had so much fun laughing and learning with them in these books. When I found that thread up here a few years back, I started a re-read and began tracking through all the books. I made lists with chapter and verse for each one that I found...I wonder where those are now...

The chapter Elemesnedene is, imho, the pinnacle of this. I feel this somehow fits in with your comment about heightened style - mundane words simply do not do justice to the exalted nature of the Elohim.
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Post by ussusimiel »

If the link I provided works you shouldn't have to dig to find it. Just in case, here it is again: Reading Runes: A Tale of Two Cosmologies. But just because you have the link doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of digging left to do, as there always is in one of wayfriend's deeply-researched posts.

I really enjoy SRD's obscure words. One of the ones that continues to baffle the philologists on the Watch is 'analystic'. I've gone as deeply into the OED as I can and I'm fairly sure now that this word does not exist. I think SRD should come right out and claim it as his own :lol: I always see it as some amalgam of 'catalytic' and 'analyse' with a dash of 'majestic' and 'mystic'. Just digging a bit more into it it looks like the 'stic' ending is related to a Greek word formation. I'm fairly sure that SRD knows his Greek!

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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

ussusimiel wrote:If the link I provided works you shouldn't have to dig to find it. Just in case, here it is again: Reading Runes: A Tale of Two Cosmologies. But just because you have the link doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of digging left to do, as there always is in one of wayfriend's deeply-researched posts.

I really enjoy SRD's obscure words. One of the ones that continues to baffle the philologists on the Watch is 'analystic'. I've gone as deeply into the OED as I can and I'm fairly sure now that this word does not exist. I think SRD should come right out and claim it as his own :lol: I always see it as some amalgam of 'catalytic' and 'analyse' with a dash of 'majestic' and 'mystic'. Just digging a bit more into it it looks like the 'stic' ending is related to a Greek word formation. I'm fairly sure that SRD knows his Greek!

u.
Where does this word appear?
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Post by ussusimiel »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Where does this word appear?
I'm fairly sure that it gets a number of outings especially in Andelain and Elemesendene, but at the moment the only solid reference I can give you is three pages from the end of Chpt. 20 ('The Sun-Sage'), in WGW, p. 487 (in my paperback edition):
She was a storm upon the mountain, a barrage of determination and fire which no eyes but hers could have witnessed. From every league and hill and gully and plain of the Land, every slope of Andelain and cliff of the peaks, every southern escarpment and northern rise, she drew ruin into herself and restored it to wholeness, then sent it back like silent rain, analystic and invisible.
A couple of other great SRDisms are 'unhermeneuticable' and 'unambergrised'. I'm not as impressed with these because their roots are clear but 'analystic' seems to be a totally new word! The obscure words thread has a hoard of the great words in the 1st and 2nd Chrons.

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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Googling the word confirmed my suspicion that it is widely used for computer analysts' paraphernalia. So, assuming Donaldson was a visionary in this field, like Gibson with Neuromancer, we see here a fine example of a computer-themed metaphor for an analysis and rebooting of the world's Laws.
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Post by ussusimiel »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Googling the word confirmed my suspicion that it is widely used for computer analysts' paraphernalia. So, assuming Donaldson was a visionary in this field, like Gibson with Neuromancer, we see here a fine example of a computer-themed metaphor for an analysis and rebooting of the world's Laws.
My google must be broken as I can't find a single mention of 'analystic'. I can get any amount of 'analytics' hits. Help!

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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

ussusimiel wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:Googling the word confirmed my suspicion that it is widely used for computer analysts' paraphernalia. So, assuming Donaldson was a visionary in this field, like Gibson with Neuromancer, we see here a fine example of a computer-themed metaphor for an analysis and rebooting of the world's Laws.
My google must be broken as I can't find a single mention of 'analystic'. I can get any amount of 'analytics' hits. Help!

u.
The trick is to use quotation marks like you mean it:

lmgtfy.com/?q=%22analystic%22
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Post by ussusimiel »

Ahhh! I always forget that. Never again though thanks to sbshoe and 'analystic' :lol:

Interestingly, I can still only find a few actual uses of the word and most of those seem to be as brandnames. Most of the hits I am getting seem to be misspellings of 'analytic'. I'm still behind SRD for this one!

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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

ussusimiel wrote:Ahhh! I always forget that. Never again though thanks to sbshoe and 'analystic' :lol:

Interestingly, I can still only find a few actual uses of the word and most of those seem to be as brandnames. Most of the hits I am getting seem to be misspellings of 'analytic'. I'm still behind SRD for this one!

u.
There is also the Romanian angle: in Romanian the word analystic means analyst!
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Post by The Eighth Ward »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Where does this word appear?
I just passed another passage in Elemesendene, page 107 of my hardback TOT:
Chant bowed as if she had shown graciousness; but she could not shake the impression that he was laughing at her secretly. Then the two Elohim moved away. Walking as buoyantly as if they shared the analystic clarity of the air, they went out into the yellow grass toward the heart of the maidan.


Having never found a definition for the word, the way SRD used it in this passage gave me an impression of combining diagnosis and healing, not so much in a physical sense - more in an organic/spiritual/metaphysical way...as if the very air of Elemesendene can sense what our soul needs and provides it for each of us if we are open to receiving it.

Your assessment of how it is used in the passage quoted by Ussusimiel looks right on target for that passage.
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Post by Zarathustra »

I assume others have already noticed this, but I thought it was a nice way to tie the 1st and 2nd Chrons together by having the brief discussion of the nurse at the end of TPTP, and then introducing LA at the beginning of TWL. This is a detail that's easy to overlook, considering that it's only a sentence or two in TPTP. And given that Donaldson first considered making LA a grad student fan of TC, I suppose we can conclude that he overlooked it, too. But I really enjoy the symmetry of having a nurse who considers putting TC out of his misery, and then the doctors talking about transferring her and getting TC someone who can properly take care of him, give him the treatment he needs. And then LA enters the picture--a woman who also put someone out of her misery--but is also the medical professional to give TC the "care" he needs. A nice touch. It almost seems planned from the beginning this way.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Mirroring my experience with each book so far during this reread, The Wounded Land is noticeably better than the previous books. The addition of Linden was a stroke of genius. Seeing Covenant from the outside makes him more of an enigma, even after we've spent 3 books inside his head. We get to see his mysterious mixture of strength and vulnerability from the perspective of someone else, someone who needs what he has. I think it does a better job of putting the audience into the book, drawing the reader in, because Linden is almost like the personification of us. We can sympathize with her as someone else viewing Covenant, because we too share these feelings of wonder and awe for what makes this man tick. We now have a surrogate standing in our place, taking this ride for us with Covenant. A perspective that allows a little bit of distance from him, so that his POV isn't so overwhelming.

The real world segments of this book far surpass the previous books. The dialog, the ochre-robed beggar, Joan, the religious fanatics ... all of it is better. And the translation into the Land with a guide who has been here before is (again) like taking us into the Land with TC. He's not lost this time. He's somewhat in control. Though we've "been" here, before too, we can sympathize with Linden's shock and imagine what she's going through as a Land newbie. Thus, we get both perspectives at once, experiencing the newness of the Land all over again despite being seasoned travelers in this place. I'm reminded of how much fun it is watching a classic movie from my childhood with my son, who has never seen it. Reliving it vicariously through his eyes and seeing his wonder makes it new for me, too. Linden does that for the Land. Like I said, stroke of genius.

The writing is much better, too. Covenant is more likable as a familiar guide with hidden strength. After solving his crisis in the first trilogy, he has attained a gravitas that feels earned. Though he's plagued with doubt over selling his soul for Joan and the changes made to the Land, he is still sure of himself as he meets these challenges. It's nice knowing that he's not going to rape a girl in the next few pages.

Honestly, I think if a Covenant movie was ever made, it should start with the Second Chronicles. It's a much more original story, more fantastic, and with more likeable characters including a built-in vehicle for audience "participation" in the form of Linden.

One small complaint ... it bugs me that Covenant wonders what there is to fight for in a Land without Earthpower. Well, gee Covenant, what about all the people in the Land? I realize that Earthpower is the symbol of life itself, and therefore it is self-evidently Good, but so are living beings. Magic doesn't make life meaningful. Life itself is magical. I don't like the idea that if we have to burn wood for heat, then life isn't worth living, or if there is no magical Healthsense, that we're incapable of recognizing Beauty. This seems to miss or undermine the point of Covenant's growth during the last trilogy. Life is precious, even when flawed or diseased or broken.
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Post by Stevo »

I just finished TOT today - for the 3rd or 4th time - and had suddenly made the connection to Vain's arm "transformation" being a catalyst for making the new Staff of Law. I even started a thread asking if anyone else had come to this conclusion. And now a read this:
The Eighth Ward wrote: Another thing...in LFB, they retrieved the Staff, a victory of sorts. In TIW though much is lost the hoard of Fleshharrower is destroyed, a victory of sorts. In TPTP, an obvious victory of sorts. In TWL, they survive, and win free of, the Sunbane, a victory of sorts. In TOT, it is the first book that ends in seemingly irremediable defeat as they limp away from the Isle. Ugh!!

(Edit: apparently there is a victory of sorts in TOT. Found it in the post that U recommended. In the Gradual Interview, SRD wrote:
I think of the "transformation" of Vain's forearm as the catalyst which makes his later changes possible. After all, how can you possibly have a Staff of Law that doesn't come from the One Tree? Vain carries the true victory of the Quest for the One Tree with him when Covenant, Linden, etc. flee the sinking Isle.
(09/06/2004)
True victory? Or only victory? I will have to think on this (and not be dismayed) as I continue the re-read.)
Proof that I am indeed slow to get things! :oops: But hey, at least it came to me on my own, right? :biggrin:
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Post by Zarathustra »

Stevo, I'm a little bit behind you. The Quest has just left the isle of the Elohim in another apparent "defeat." I've enjoyed your other thread, and posted a few thoughts there. All I can say here is that the progression I've noted several times before is still on course: each book better than the previous one. The transition to the giantship is a clean break from TWL, especially switching to Linden's perspective. I like associating her own personal "black mood" with the perception of a Raver. This is a great externalization of her internal character. And then Covenant's relapse is a thing of terror. Finally, we're starting to see what all this venom was for, and how powerful it can be. After spending the first Chronicles wishing that Covenant could use his power willfully, without a trigger, I now realize that I should be careful what I wish for. After Linden helps to heal him (after a fascinating deliberation which leads organically to her big Past Reveal Part I), his power comes easier than ever before, threatening to burst out of him catastrophically. And the Elohim section is truly wondrous, one of the best "faerie" stories ever.

I remember being disappointed with most of TWGW, so we'll see if this holds up.
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Post by Stevo »

Just finished WGW. I forgot how much really goes on in this book. But the one thing I did notice that I didn't realize before is the TC did not become part of the Arch Of Time. He was a ghost that was able to stand between Lord Fowl and the Arch Of Time, absorbing fouls attempts to break the Arch Of Time. It's all explained in the last couple pages of the book. I may have to re-read that a couple of times.

I also have more questions ... I'll have to find a place to post them if I can't find them being asked elsewhere.
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Post by Holsety »

This is a long post!
The bigger problem is actually why Covenant looks like one of the Lords' producing species rather than like a Cavewight. Covenant should have dragged Ookie, Drool's little missus down some dark tunnel to satisfy his craving, not Lena. So going along with this line of thought either the acclimatization process takes time and Covenant became humanish during the first dazed minutes on top of Kevin's Watch with Lena or Drool believed that the White Gold Wielder wood look the same as the Staff of Law wielders.
Oh come now! Covenant resembles Foul because Foul is an externalization of his flaws, or something like that - Covenant said so himself, and he is the white gold! And Foul somewhat resembles the Lords, because he infiltrated them at some point in the past, which is the case because he is sending Covenant to infiltrate them now, or something. Also he resembles them because pretty much anytime The Creator makes something nice or The Land evolves something nice, Foul goes and mucks it up. Believe me, I don't have any justifications except thematic roundabouts, but I'm sure what I'm saying makes sense.

I'm a little confused as to whether you mean Lords' or Landfolk. But, as to why he does, it's fairly simple IMO from a narrative point of view. If Covenant looked like a wight, why would Foul send him from the Wights to Revelstone with a message? Moreover, why would Drool be worried he would take the staff from him (in particular?). Unless Covenant was one fine figure of a Wight, Drool would just say "back in the tunnels with ye" and probably be less likely to credit he was in some way "different." This is, again, a "everything must be obvious to everyone when it is to be followed up immediately" way of looking at the books, I think.

As far as the difference between TC's world and ours, it seems somewhat like disputing a difference between the different worlds we all live in. While we can accurately say there are things that happen that wouldn't really happen, I think his environment is comparatively closer to one we can reach and interact with...?
I admit, I've never come into immediate contact with a rattlesnake.
Conceivably, the Creator could have created the world in such a way as to ensure Covenant could understand the language. Built the world "for" him. He certainly interfered with his creation during the creation phase. He gave it gravity Covenant could cope with, air Covenant could breath, food Covenant could eat, germs Covenant could resist, temperatures Covenant could be comfortable in, etc. Why is giving it a language Covenant could understand out-of-bounds?
This perhaps suggests to much purpose on the part of the Creator (?). I certainly know little of what it is to craft a real, breathing world on such a scale, and I'd suppose you know little of it as well.

But it may well be that the Creator has limits - I certainly don't believe that he suggests otherwise - and that a certain framework and such are the natural results of his limits. His decision to employ the agent of another world, who can survive within his world, may have been the result of convenience, unless the Creator ministers fully over every world. Foul, who professes a desire for certain perfections, may well be frustrated by the limitations which complex life given comfort places on its surroundings. I don't feel like going further into the questions of whether Foul and the Creator are the same entity - I think what I've said can be maintained as a possible counter, without really bothering to decide something no one can be sure they've figured out (can we really trust these high entities that are in opposition to give straight answers?).
Orlion wrote:Something else: we do not know the content of the books Covenant wrote to begin with. Could be they were fantasy books :D
I feel like you should know this XD but we know a tiny bit...

Covenant wrote one book prior to contracting leprosy, which (after treatment, divorce, etc.) he saw as ridiculously pretty and optimistic and consigned to the fire, along with his second work. He also wrote some other more seemingly gloomy ones, IIRC.
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Post by Vraith »

Holsety wrote:
Orlion wrote:Something else: we do not know the content of the books Covenant wrote to begin with. Could be they were fantasy books :D
I feel like you should know this XD but we know a tiny bit...

Covenant wrote one book prior to contracting leprosy, which (after treatment, divorce, etc.) he saw as ridiculously pretty and optimistic and consigned to the fire, along with his second work. He also wrote some other more seemingly gloomy ones, IIRC.
I recall having the impression the first was kinda "romance" in tone/style?
Wasn't one of the later ones called "Or I will sell my soul for guilt?"...someone, I think Linden's boss, says something about it...didn't strike me as fantasy.
Just my impressions, though...it would be funny if one of them was Fantasy, though...especially if it was the second one...a Fantasy about Guilt and Ethics...who would DO something like that??? ;)
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Post by Zarathustra »

I've already noted some problems I'm having with WGW in Deer's TOT thread. In addition to those, I'm a little annoyed with how Revelstone is presented. I understand that it's an amazing piece of architecture, that it connects the giants with their Unhomed relatives, and that it's supposed to have some kind of transcendent message in its structure. But come on, it's a cliff with balconies carved into it. Is this really a reason to get all misty-eyed after traveling days through the Sunbane, after the failure of the Quest, after the death of Seadreamer, after the failure of Sunder and Hollian, after the slaughter of the mind-controlled Haruchai? I mean, people are literally getting bled and their blood burned inside this amazing structure, but it's a time to stop and recite poetry? And this poetry recitation is a reason for the iron-hard First of the Search to burst into tears and name Covenant "Earthfriend?" Seriously? Only pages ago, she had pointed her sword at Covenant and expressed distrust merely because his fire was black (hey, Vain's always been black, but I suppose that's okay), and now she's a crying girl overcome with warm feelings and pride?

I understand what he was trying to accomplish with this scene, but it comes off more like Donaldson trying to remind us how cool his own creation is, rather than any legitimate story-telling reason. And the attempt utterly fails, because Revelstone is apparently "too cool for words." Literally, you can't express it. That's a damn convenient writer's trick. Hey, the mountains are too tall for words. This woman is too beautiful for words. The forest is too woodsy for words. It sure saves the writer the trouble of using the one thing at his disposal to describe it! Not having to come up with the words is like a musician composing a song too pretty for notes. Cop out.
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Post by Orlion »

Gee, how many descriptions of Revelstone do you need? :lol:

I do not view it as a cop-out, in either case. Namely because there are various ways of describing something aside from merely "describing" it. We've had that before, several times. In this case, we have a description based on how other characters react to Revelstone. Based on the experiences of many of the characters, you would not expect a favourable view... however, the Giants are able to see something in the workmanship no one else can AND do not have all this baggage of being tortured/possessed/sacrificed within its walls. It provides a type of why Covenant would be wanting to fight for a Land under something as terrible as a Sunbane. He knows, under the perversions of Foul, that Earthpower is a thing of beauty and wonder.
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Post by Vraith »

Zarathustra wrote: That's a damn convenient writer's trick. Hey, the mountains are too tall for words. This woman is too beautiful for words. The forest is too woodsy for words. It sure saves the writer the trouble of using the one thing at his disposal to describe it! Not having to come up with the words is like a musician composing a song too pretty for notes. Cop out.

Heh...that happens a lot [not only for SRD]...and it often bugs me a lot.
God, Lovecraft used pretty much the exact same SENTENCE in almost every story to explain/describe that things couldn't be explained/described...and often not just the same sentence/words, but same words "describing" the same THING.

That passage contrasts with a part of AATE [which I won't talk about here!] where he treats the inexpressible differently...and to stunning effect IMHO
.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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