The Rape of James Bond

[Cambo]

sophiamcdougall.com/2013/03/13/the-rape-of-james-bond/

Critique of the presentation of rape in fiction. Lots of talk of ASoIaF, which I have yet to read. Thoughts?

[Orlion]

Initial thoughts while reading: Soooo.... all the rape in Clash of Kings was too much but all the rape/Stockholm syndrome in A Game of Thrones was fine and fun?

Once I got into the actual argument, it turned out to be intriguing. The reactions of the general reading populace to male rape does seem to be considerably more volatile than to female rape.

I'm reminded by reactions to a Richard Matheson book I once read called Hunted Past Reason. It's an entertaining enough adventure story/escapism... but it is downplayed and criticized a lot not because of structural or banging the reader's head with the author's form of spiritualism. People hated/did not finish the book because of there happens to be a graphic rape of the male protagonist by the male antagonist. In fact, even though it is presented as a power trip, it suffers from the same criticism as the Bond scene where it is not only rape, but homosexual rape!

[deer of the dawn]

I think rape is certainly overused to add "grittiness" to stories; in many cases it's a cheap way to add titillation of the creepy variety to a plot that lacks depth...

I found MacDougall's stats about rape confusing. When I was a rape crisis counselor 25 years ago, the chances of a woman being raped in her lifetime were commonly said to be 1 in 3 (not 1 in 4). Maybe women are more inured to the threat and accept the threat or action in a book or movie more readily as being a possibility: it resembles reality. Statistics on men range from "1 in 6" to "1 in 33". In any case, the likelihood of a man being raped or threatened with rape are lower; so male rape looks less like reality (both to men and women); it's more shocking when depicted in lit and film.

I'm not justifying the implied double-standard by any stretch. I can't understand why people like rape as entertainment. It has its place, certainly, but I wouldn't want to read graphic depictions of rape (I don't even care for graphic depictions of consensual sex; it's too private and some things are just better left to the imagination). I'm glad to get the heads-up on Book 2 of SoIaF, I will likely decline to read it if it's rape after rape. I can have nightmares without having to read them.

[Avatar]

Honestly, I don't remember noticing that it was so apparently prevalent in book 2...

--A

[I'm Murrin]

More in book one, I think. I think the writer of the post there wasn't talking about book two specifically, but of the accumulation of it through the two books.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

She didn't mention Pulp Fiction at all, which is odd since she was trying to find movie instances of a male being raped. Either she didn't watch that movie--which I highly doubt--or she simply forgot about it. Either way, there is an example that clearly meets the definition of "rape" no matter how you interpret it.

She mentions GRRM and I thought about the collective world of which he was a member, Wild Cards. There are lots of rapes of both males and females in that series by a variety of characters, most notable The Astronomer but also Jonathan Latham (whose ace power wound up being the ability to create "jumpers", telepaths who can switch minds with you...but he could only create them if he had sex with them).

I think if rape is used simply for shock value then it is meaningless and trite, trivializing what is normally a very traumatizing event. If used only as a plot device to establish a character or create a dynamic between characters--Covenant and Lena, Angus and Morn, later Nick and Morn, even Erasmus (was that his name? it's been a long time) and Terisa (he didn't but he was going to)--then it has valid literary use. This applies for movies or TV shows, as well. Probably the most "famous" TV rape to date is still Edith Bunker from All in the Family.

[deer of the dawn]

This thread reminded me of a question I looked into years ago-- whether or not Jesus Christ was raped as part of the abuse he underwent at the hands of the Roman soldiers. I am serious on this one, because Roman men were pretty rapey. At that time, 50% of the population of the Roman world were in bondage of some kind; and slaves could be used indiscriminately for sex by their owners. It was part of the culture along with other forms of depravity.

In John 19 it says,

Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe and went up to him again and again, saying, "Hail, king of the Jews!" And they struck him in the face.

Beyond the flogging, itself cruel and disfiguring, the Roman soldiers were allowed to toy with him, humiliating him with what was apparently a customary game, sometimes played on passers-by, "The Game of Kings", dressing him up in royal colors with a highly uncomfortable crown, and abusing him, perhaps in ways that aren't spelled out.

Well, there is no way to know for sure one way or the other, I actually ended up abandoning the inquiry when I realized that the last time homosexuality and rape came into conjunction, in Sodom and Gomorrah, fire and brimstone rained down...

I think if rape is used simply for shock value then it is meaningless and trite, trivializing what is normally a very traumatizing event. If used only as a plot device to establish a character or create a dynamic between characters--Covenant and Lena, Angus and Morn, later Nick and Morn, even Erasmus (was that his name? it's been a long time) and Terisa (he didn't but he was going to)--then it has valid literary use.

Well said, Hashi. Rape is part of life and has a place in fiction, but it has to add more to the plot than easy drama.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

This thread reminded me of a question I looked into years ago-- whether or not Jesus Christ was raped as part of the abuse he underwent at the hands of the Roman soldiers. I am serious on this one, because Roman men were pretty rapey. At that time, 50% of the population of the Roman world were in bondage of some kind; and slaves could be used indiscriminately for sex by their owners. It was part of the culture along with other forms of depravity.

The probability is fairly likely, yes. That particular question, though, is likely to make some people incredibly uncomfortable. Not me, of course, but then I am not like other people.

[I'm Murrin]

I think if rape is used simply for shock value then it is meaningless and trite, trivializing what is normally a very traumatizing event. If used only as a plot device to establish a character or create a dynamic between characters--Covenant and Lena, Angus and Morn, later Nick and Morn, even Erasmus (was that his name? it's been a long time) and Terisa (he didn't but he was going to)--then it has valid literary use.

Well said, Hashi. Rape is part of life and has a place in fiction, but it has to add more to the plot than easy drama.

Indeed. The call is not so much for more rape, but to acknowledge, by looking at how little male rape occurs in fiction, that female rape is overused.

I've actually read several other excellent posts related to this one recently, and related ones talking about "grimdark" fantasy, but I'm not sure I'd be able to find them all again. I should've bookmarked.