Thoughts on re-reading

[Orlion]

I actually consider Lovecraft to be a demonstration of the very real limits of "merely describing something". And he can describe some bizarre things... from his description of the Elder Things in At the Mountains of Madness, I got a picture in my mind almost exactly like the artistic interpretations that float about. (I got the image in my head before I saw said art).

That said, he often describes some of the architecture as 'cyclopean'. What does that mean to people? To most... it just kinda means big. In actuality, it describes very distinctly a type of masonry that does not use mortar but instead is based on stacking mostly uncut stones on top of each other. How many people who read Lovecraft get that image? From artistic interpretations I've seen... not very many.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

And this poetry recitation is a reason for the iron-hard First of the Search to burst into tears and name Covenant "Earthfriend?" Seriously? Only pages ago, she had pointed her sword at Covenant and expressed distrust merely because his fire was black (hey, Vain's always been black, but I suppose that's okay), and now she's a crying girl overcome with warm feelings and pride?

...which proves she's just a regular fertile woman. Even with us pitiful humans it's a week of mood swings from red-hot smash-it-with-a-hammer rage to suspicion to getting teary over some insignificant memory or scrap of song, then a week's worth of bloody mess and thereafter exhaustion due to the iron loss. Perhaps that's twice the time with Giants.

Apart from that, careful reading reveals she's a very soft-cored, sentimental character who weeps almost as often as Linden, topped with a poor self-confidence masked behind a hard shell and Pitchwife (there's even a scene in TOT where she clearly has lost her compass and self-composition due to PW's absence). I can recite half a dozen teary spots from memory.

AND to add, it's the relic of the Unhomed, a sore loss to the Giants in itself, and she has witnessed their re-enacted tragedy. That should squeeze some tears even out of a fossilized oyster.

[Vraith]

I actually consider Lovecraft to be a demonstration of the very real limits of "merely describing something". And he can describe some bizarre things... from his description of the Elder Things in At the Mountains of Madness,

Oh, he CAN, and sometimes does it very well [as SRD does, especially as he developed as a writer]...nevertheless Lovecraft often doesn't, and when he doesn't he uses nearly exactly the same words every time [HEH! He's the Anti-most interesting man in the world...he always drinks Dos Equis.]

Frostie...I'm on your side with the Giant's [especially the First's] REACTIONS [not so much with the fertility/moodswings as a reason, that's a stretch. And SEXIST!!! you evil grinner you...funny though.]
...but SRD has done better, before and after this, at Effing the Ineffable.

[Zarathustra]

Hey, like I said, I appreciate what SRD was trying to accomplish, I just don't think he pulled it off. For me, the scene was like walking out of the jungles of Mexico to find present day human sacrifices still happening on the Aztec (or Inca?) pyramids, and then stand there reciting poetry about this beautiful architecture, even inventing flattering titles for each other to convey their appreciation for each other's love of architecture ... while human heads are rolling down the pyramids. "Gee, what a lovely rock," wouldn't be the first thing that occurred to me. And, "I name you Earthfriend for your poem," wouldn't be the second. Sometimes people of the Land act more like Land fanboys than actual characters.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

It's not sexist if a woman talks about womanly mundanities...or a giantess about giantessy matters. Considering how often PW and she played hide the mettwurst (SRD's "went to look for some privacy"), and TOT reveals they're attempting to get a child, perhaps their physiology does not differ so much from that of their wee'er counterparts. Pitchwife's sniffling during the same scene and before the ground-shaking poetry I cannot shove under PMS'ing, though.

Well, admittedly the whole earthfriend blatherskite appears a bit silly, but I can forgive that based on their foolish nature.

Spoiler

(The military commander of Gianthome opting to trust the fate of the earth to the ranyhyn. Starfare's Gem's crew congaing on the deck.)

Besides, they had not witnessed the whole scale of slaughter in detail, yet. Gibbon & co weren't catapulting haruheads over the ramparts, after all.

[shadowbinding shoe]

The arrangement of the balconies and outer decorations can be quite complex. Just like any big building's outer face. I'm sure the giants who built it didn't arrange them just for the sake of utility. They're the face this building presents to the world.

After all the horrors they witnessed and heard of in the Land this giantish masterpiece must have stirred their hearts. When was the last time they saw a proper Giantish masterwork? It's like traveling among the mud huts for a year to suddenly see a skyscarper. They were awed. A little plume of smoke from inside wouldn't be that noticeable anyway.

Don't we appreciate grand works of art like the pyramids, be they Pharonic or Aztec despite the suffering inflicted in their making? Revelstone isn't even tainted in such a direct way. The fact that at present Foul worshipping squatters habitate it has nothing to do with the giant builders' accomplishment. It's just a sad fact that needs to be remedied.

[deer of the dawn]

Agreed. Nothing of what was going on inside Revelstone was apparent from the outside, except the beam of light from the Banefire (and I believe their first view was just before sunrise, so that wouldn't have been "on"). Though made for humans, there was some Giantish aesthetic-- even a coded message-- that Giants would have immediately responded to. Just like any person goes "Wow" when they see the Taj Mahal or a the interior of a great cathedral with their own eyes. It totally went along with the impetuous passionate nature of Giants to stop and wax poetic at the sight.

[Zarathustra]

Well, actually, it was Covenant who waxed poetic. The guy who has already been inside, seen people killed, killed people himself, confronted a raver, already seen Revelstone numerous times under better conditions, etc. I'm not sure waxing poetic is within his nature.

[wayfriend]

I would not say that it was like seeing the Taj Mahal. For Giants, it is much more signficant. Stone, along with Sea, means more to Giants than nice architecture. It's how they express their being; it is their "means of articulation". To them, Revelstone is more like a poignant poem than a building. Indeed, an epic poem about the loss-battered spirit of the Unhomed. Which is exactly what the Giants told us: "All other expression must be dumb when the pure stone speaks. And here that speech has been made manifest. Ah, my heart! The Giants of the Land were taught much by their loss of Home. I am humbled before them."

[Vraith]

Well, actually, it was Covenant who waxed poetic. The guy who has already been inside, seen people killed, killed people himself, confronted a raver, already seen Revelstone numerous times under better conditions, etc. I'm not sure waxing poetic is within his nature.

Heh...I still agree with you the actual writing/description of it could have been better done, but what you describe there is pretty consistent with TC's character, [the previous pain/violence enhances/inspires his "poetic" side, happens to him a LOT] even if not especially well-executed.

[Zarathustra]

Well, after 5 great books, I'm bummed out about WGW. They've just entered Mt. Thunder, so I haven't got to the amazing ending yet, but the rest of the book feels like filler. And all the whining, doubting, worrying from every character remaining (TC, LA, PW, and First) is painful to read ... and not in a good way. I no longer empathize with these characters. When Pitchwife breaks his little flute and flings it like a child, I want to slap him. I want to ask SRD, "Seriously? That's the best you've got to develop this character?" I think Donaldson was going for aggrieved or fraught, but all he managed was petulant. Pitchwife deserves better.

It makes absolutely no sense for Linden to doubt Covenant based on something dead Kevin said, not after all they've been through, and the certainty he achieved in the Banefire. She can read him! She knows that he's not giving up like her father. This manufactured tension for the final stage is so obviously a ploy to frustrate the reader, I'm ... well, frustrated! But not in the way the author intends, I expect. Kevin was mastered by Foul, beaten twice by his foe, succumbed to his own despair--and she's going to trust his interpretation over her own lover's? Everyone tells Linden this obvious point, but she continues to doubt the man she loves on the verge of his greatest victory, just so we can be on the edge of our seats. It's not true to these characters. It even infects the love between Pitchwife and the First, pits them against each other emotionally as Pitchwife trusts Linden while the First trusts Covenant. No, this is worse than mere narrative tension. It's B.S.

And finally, we have Caer Caveral and his master plan of getting himself killed so that the Law of Life can be broken, which we all know becomes a vital plot point, not just for this Chronicles but also the next. But it hinged upon an event which could have easily not happened at all. Hollian could have lived. Or Sunder could have buried her before Andelain. CC isn't omniscent. He couldn't have known what people are going to do with their freewill. What if no character walked into Andelain at precisely the right moment, carrying a corpse, a magical dagger, and enough emotional baggage to murder a forestal? Several books worth of plotting comes tumbling down.

Contrived, melodramatic BS. God, why didn't I see this years ago?

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I love soppy melodramatic BS!

[Zarathustra]

To each his own ... but I prefer drama to melodrama.

[Holsety]

That said, he often describes some of the architecture as 'cyclopean'. What does that mean to people? To most... it just kinda means big. In actuality, it describes very distinctly a type of masonry that does not use mortar but instead is based on stacking mostly uncut stones on top of each other. How many people who read Lovecraft get that image? From artistic interpretations I've seen... not very many.

For me, "Cyclopean architecture" makes me think of these one-eyed towers in the Zelda games that try and zap you with lasers.

[wayfriend]

Cyclopean masonry is a type of stonework found in Mycenaean architecture, built with massive limestone boulders, roughly fitted together with minimal clearance between adjacent stones and no use of mortar. The boulders typically seem unworked, but some may have been worked roughly with a hammer and the gaps between boulders filled in with smaller chunks of limestone.

cy·clo·pe·an
adj.
1. often Cyclopean Relating to or suggestive of a Cyclops: a great Cyclopean monocle.
2. Very big; huge: has a cyclopean ego.
3. Of or constituting a primitive style of masonry characterized by the use of massive stones of irregular shape and size.

[IrrationalSanity]

When the Dead speak, it isn't exactly like us having a conversation around the kitchen table. There is Power behind their words, both by their very nature, as well as the accumulated weight of their years on the other side. Whether they intrinsically project their interpretation into the mind of the listener, or it is human nature to give great deference to such utterances, I can't say that Linden's response was necessarily out of line. She isn't much for "middle ground".

As for the other aspects my reading isn't recent enough to comment on the exact context and whether the behaviors are appropriate.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

How do you expect people to respond when some of their favorite moments get dumped under terminology such as "BS"? You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but this is not the Tank.
Then again, I'm itching to post some pictures of sickeningly cute baby animals and random MLP:FIM characters from the pinker end just because.

[Zarathustra]

Frostheart, I know this isn't the Tank. I have no intention of debating. I'm merely giving my impressions of the text. Lots of people are doing this lately as they reread. My opinions are certainly not aimed at anyone else here (not unless SRD is here ). If I've spoken harshly about a favorite passage of yours, I don't mind at all if you want to state your own opinion just as passionately. In fact, that's the main reason why I come here, to read other people's reactions to these books I love, and to give mine as well. As I said, to each his own.

I don't want to trash my favorite author's work. As I've said elsewhere, repeatedly, every book of the 1st and 2nd Chrons has gotten better, and I've enjoyed my reread. I only have a few complaints, and they are just as disturbing to me as they might be to you. I didn't expect to have this reaction, and I'm a little bummed out because I know the books didn't change ... I did. I enjoyed them a lot more at 14 (as opposed to 41), when the world was "new" and tomorrow perpetually seemed to hold the possibility for adventure.

I'm looking forward to the end of this series. Honestly, I want it to be over. I'm ready for a new adventure. I can't keep reading 30-year-old books and expect to get the same reaction each time.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The possibility for new adventure is still there for those of us in our early 40s. Unlike many here, though, I have not re-read either the First or Second Chronicles in, oh, at least 10 years and I do not plan on rereading them now. Maybe I will in my 50s but who knows?

I suspect that Mr. Donaldson himself would accept the fact that our reading of his books changes as we age or change life circumstances and I also suspect he would not feel badly if we dislike portions of his books or the way a character is portrayed.

I would be concerned if you did have the same reaction each time you reread it.

[Holsety]

I would be excited if I could really recall my reactions to as much of the books as I remember in my first reading. However, there's no question in my mind that my rereads are substantially helped (in terms of understanding) by a lack of...rushing.