Thoughts on re-reading

[Holsety]

Regarding Deus Ex Machina, I believe that it is best used in displaying in some sense a lack of control the characters may have. The Covenant series has a lot of consideration of free will which tries to give many characters some form of being able to "make a difference" in their own lives and in the fate of the land.

There's another book I have in mind where DexM really is an essential point of the plot, in part because the book seems to revolve around predeterminism and the narrator having a crucial role in some cosmic plot.

[Zarathustra]

Well, I said that's all I had to say, but I just noticed that I overlooked WF's points.

Like I said above, I see no essential difference between Caer-Caveral breaking the Law of Life (essential to the final resolution, Covenant unaware he even needed it) and the ur-viles providing Vain (essential to the final resolution, Covenant unaware he even needed it) and meeting up with the Search (essential etc, unaware etc) and finding the Haruchai (essential, unaware) and Memla's switching sides against the Clave (dittos), and I am sure many more things. If anyone can say why Caer-Caveral's actions are different somehow, I'd like to hear of it.

I think I've already listed the differences between Vain and CC's actions: 1) planned vs coincidence or foreknowledge, and 2) a tool for Linden to express her fundamental characteristics vs reshaping reality to fix a flaw in TC's solution.

I think those are essential differences in terms of DexM. Being crucial to the final resolution isn't the point, (though being unaware of such a need perhaps is--but they knew they needed Vain from the beginning). The point is that a "seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. There's nothing sudden about Vain, nor contrived or unexpected about his intervention. That was built into the story for three books. We absolutely expected Vain to do something crucial, even if there was an element of surprise to his actual purpose. An author can't be accused of a DexM if his plot device is constantly reminding us of its presence and future purpose. That's the opposite of contrived/abrupt.

Meeting the Search was unexpected, but that didn't abruptly resolve anything, much less a fatal flaw in TC's final solution. And Covenant had to win over the Search himself by the amazing and moving performance of a metaphysical caamora for an entire population of Unhomed ghosts. So he earned that help. It wasn't given gratuitously without his knowledge or participation.

Finding the Haruchai may have been unexpected, but again Covenant earned their help by helping them. And while they were certainly useful, there's nothing about their actions (except maybe Brinn's) that were absolutely necessary. Even the Guardian could conceivably been defeated by someone else. Donaldson didn't have to make that a physical combat scene at all. He could have written any number of Guardian-type tests.

Melma switched sides because of TC's actions and influence, opening her eyes just like he opened Sunder's. I give TC credit for that, in exposing the Clave's falseness.

These are absolutely indisputable differences between the kind of help CC provided. For various reasons, his help is on an entirely different level.

SRD specifically constructs the Chronicles so that the dilemmas that the characters face are ultimately internal. Covenant's real quest is for the awareness and self-mastery and resolution required to defeat Lord Foul. Everything that happens outside of that has no importance, except insofar as it brings Covenant internally to a necessary mental and emotional state, a state required to defeat Foul. Nothing from the Land matters at that point -- all that matters is what is in his head. At the end, he needs nothing specifically from the Land, neither lore nor power nor artifact nor acquaintence.

I agree with that. However, since confronting Foul is the whole point of this internal conflict, and he wouldn't have been able to confront him at all without CC's miraculous intervention (he would have been a spectator to his own internal conflict, not a participant), CC's intervention can't be dismissed as tangential plot device. TC planned on giving Foul the ring, and letting Foul kill him. That was his plan. And it was his crucial character dilemma: i.e. how to deal with Foul this time. The ONLY thing that made it unlike Linden's father's suicide was that he planned on allowing Foul to attack him, sacrificing himself to save the Arch and the Land. But that would have been impossible if he was nothing more than a spectator and couldn't act. His standing against Foul as a sacrifice *was* his solution, but it was only possible due to CC.

No other plot feature is like that. Not Melma, not Vain, not the Search ... nothing else allowed him to confront Foul specifically how he confronted Foul in his final showdown. Nothing else would have rendered his solution naive, pointless, and futile if it was removed from the plot.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I disagree, Z. It seems like you assume the story can only progress through the actions of Covenant and maybe Linden. But there are other characters beside them and Foul in the books. And we should give credit to Donaldson for giving them an unsuperfluous role in the books.

This particular plot was about Hollian, Sunder, Troy and Elena. The chance for Sunder and Hollian to find their happy ending and for Troy (as CC) to correct as much as possible Elena's mistake.

As for the apparent flaw in Covenant's solution, he has always depended on outside forces to aid him. This is in fact a central theme in the Chronicles. As long as he does his part, things will work out.

[Zarathustra]

Orlion, I agree that secondary characters should have roles that aren't superfluous. That's why I said to WF that all his examples weren't DexMs, and I have no problem with those examples of help.

[Billy G.]

Every time I re-read the Search's visit to Elemesnedene, I can't get over how utterly disgusting those Elohim are.

Last Chronicles spoiler:

Spoiler

I just hope that Jeremiah (or the Worm first) does wipe them all out in The Last Dark.

[Eggthang]

Z
I have to agree with the others that CC's actions should not be regarded as Deus Ex, any more than any of the other 'co-incidences' on which the plot ultimately turns. For example LA's actions in ceding possession at the end. If she had not TC's plan would be equally naive pointless and futile.
After all the whole chronicles are (1) an exercise in self fulfilling prophecy see e.g. the wounds being replicated at the end of each cycle and in particular Chapter 12 of TWL. (2) it is not CC's cunning plan - it is that of Mhoram the seer and oracle who has foreseen these needs and (3) in a sense that is not dispelled by the reality of the land the product of TC's imagination (LFB page 4) and any device which aids the resolution of his internal conflict is therefore legitimate

[wayfriend]

(Welcome [back] Eggthang. Sure is eggsiting to hear from you again.)

I agree that Caer-Caveral's final act was surely planned or at least anticipated from the beginning, and is part and parcel with the planning/anticipating behind Vain. The Staff could only have been made by Linden with the ring, therefore Covenant yeilding it was anticipated, therefore Covenant defeating Foul through death was anticipated. The two helps were similarly planned, albeit delivered at different times.

I find it odd that proclaiming something is pre-ordained proves it isn't deus ex machina, but here I am.

The notion of externalization of conflict I also commend. As I was trying to say above, that's what it's really all about. No one solved that problem for Covenant. Therefore, nothing was cheapened. All else that happens only serves this greater end.

[Zarathustra]

Eggthang, Linden didn't make TC's solution work, she merely abstained from preventing it. That was inaction, not action, and TC's solution would have been the same whether she had interrupted it or not. Her choice was to trust TC to do what he'd planned, not to alter it in any way. Besides, her actions are on par with TC's since they are dual protagonists. They can't ever be DexMs for each other, since we expected from the beginning for them to help solve each other's conflicts. I thought that was the whole point in introducing her as a character. Their interaction and co-resolutions were essential to the plot, rather than unexpected and contrived.

So I suppose that I agree with you that her "help" or involvement was a perfectly legitimate element to the story, but I don't see how it was anything like CC's.

This has been fun. Everyone has argued his position well. The point about Mhoram's foresight and scheming with CC is pretty strong. I suppose I'm in the minority on this issue, but I don't mind. I don't think my concerns have been sufficiently addressed*, but I'm willing to call it a draw and move on.

*[e.g. I was challenged to find a difference between CC's help and the help of others'. I found many differences, and no one has shown that they were superficial.]

[Vraith]

I find it odd that proclaiming something is pre-ordained proves it isn't deus ex machina, but here I am.

Hee...it does sound funny phrased like that.
but really, it's fundamental to the definition.
I don't think many things people call by the name are DEM.
They're contrived, manipulative, often damaging to integrity [of author, tale, or both], other things and just bad writing.
[heh...not that contrivance and manipulation are bad in themselves. You can't have a story without them. They just have to be successfully veiled.]

But they aren't DEM...which has become so broad in use at this point that it means, basically, "if it has a coherent plot, it is DEM...and the same, probably, if the plot is incoherent or non-existant."

Bah...off-topic.
Heh...but it's OK, Z declared a draw on topic anyway.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Can something even be DEM if it's only noticeable in retrospective at the end of the book? We didn't know that Covenant's plan suffered from this fatal flaw until the end. Having to die resisting to bring this about is a further deviation from classic DEM. Not really textbook DEM.

[Zarathustra]

SS, perhaps you're right for a first read. That may be part of the reason why I never noticed before now.

[Orlion]

SS, perhaps you're right for a first read. That may be part of the reason why I never noticed before now.

Donaldson's style is such that his stories are highly structured... I mean HIGHLY structured. A leads to B which leads to C and so forth, and in the reverse: to get to Z one must pass through Y and so forth. As a result, you hear a lot of "it HAD to happen" with Donaldson.

How organic this feels depends on the work and, perhaps, the reader. I could, if I really was going to be critical, claim that the deaths of the Giants in the Illearth War was totally DEM because it created the emo Foamfollower which was necessary for Covenant to even get INTO Foul's Creche. Covenant would have failed if the Ravers did not slaughter all the Giants save one. They had to be prevented from leaving!

[Holsety]

SS, perhaps you're right for a first read. That may be part of the reason why I never noticed before now.

Donaldson's style is such that his stories are highly structured... I mean HIGHLY structured. A leads to B which leads to C and so forth, and in the reverse: to get to Z one must pass through Y and so forth. As a result, you hear a lot of "it HAD to happen" with Donaldson.

How organic this feels depends on the work and, perhaps, the reader. I could, if I really was going to be critical, claim that the deaths of the Giants in the Illearth War was totally DEM because it created the emo Foamfollower which was necessary for Covenant to even get INTO Foul's Creche. Covenant would have failed if the Ravers did not slaughter all the Giants save one. They had to be prevented from leaving!

Well...it was more like the author structuring the work...

What I mean is, it's conceivable for Covenant to have gotten into the Creche without Foamfollower. There didn't have to be Hotash Slay - if anything, I'd bet that that lava was created for Foamfollower as a test rather than the other way around, if you follow my meaning.

The emo foamfollower is more important for emo foamfollower in and of himself (his redemption esp) than for getting Covenant through trials that could have been created differently for a different character (for instance, Bannor could have been the one to guide Covenant).

And there's also the possibility that even if the giants weren't slaughtered, they would have stayed around for the land's time of need if they had actually been communicated with at all (rather than the scenario we see where contact is suddenly cut off). Not to say they would have had to, but it's conceivable.

Also, IIRC emo foamfollower already existed when he killed cavewights etc in LFB. He just got worse after his kinsmen were slain.

But...let me know what you think

[Zarathustra]

What I mean is, it's conceivable for Covenant to have gotten into the Creche without Foamfollower. There didn't have to be Hotash Slay - if anything, I'd bet that that lava was created for Foamfollower as a test rather than the other way around, if you follow my meaning.

Ha, excellent point. We keep treating this work as if it all exists "out there" already, instead of in the author's mind. Hotash Slay didn't exist as a physical obstacle for SRD to kill off an entire population of Giants merely to circumvent this obstacle in the most roundabout way possible. That's completely backwards thinking. I think you've nailed it: SRD needed a final caamora for Foamfollower, more than a lava-proof transport for Covenant. The Hotash didn't hav to be there at all; it was for FF's character development. And there was nothing unexpected or abrupt about this solution, because it followed directly from the examples and significance of caamoras and Giants in general.

I've just finished WGW a few minutes ago. I think I'll let Covenant speak for me in my final input on this topic. When Linden asks ghost-Covenant how he did it [i.e. beat Foul], TC responds:

"I don't think I did it at all."

And that's exactly the problem.

[deer of the dawn]

"I don't think I did it at all."

And that's exactly the problem.

Maybe that's Linden's problem in the Last Chrons. She feels like she has to do everything.

I was re-reading and I got stalled in Runes. For a quick break, I decided to take a look at Game of Thrones, LOL. I just started book 4.

Now that I am in the states I have to go to a Library to borrow the books, and read like hell to catch up before TLD comes out. Which is fine because there is no TV where we are living, Hallelujah!!

Why did I stall out in the Plains of Ra? I think what I have been dealing with IRL is too close to what Linden is going through. Unsolvable problems that cost others I care about too much.

I know that when I do get through it I will be grateful for her perseverance and the serendipities that move the plot along when all hope seems lost, and balance out the tragedies and disasters that also come along. Because that's like life.

[Menolly]

I know that when I do get through it I will be grateful for her perseverance and the serendipities that move the plot along when all hope seems lost, and balance out the tragedies and disasters that also come along. Because that's like life.

Like HLT did, this is difficult to admit...

...but for reasons left unsaid in this forum, this staunch OPAL member is starting to lean towards LA.

Oy...

[Zarathustra]

"I don't think I did it at all."

And that's exactly the problem.

Maybe that's Linden's problem in the Last Chrons. She feels like she has to do everything.

...

I know that when I do get through it I will be grateful for her perseverance and the serendipities that move the plot along when all hope seems lost, and balance out the tragedies and disasters that also come along. Because that's like life.

I think Linden's story is very moving, and the trials she encounters do indeed ring true as things real people like you and me could very well encounter (or even have encountered ... YMMV).

However, just because it's impossible for us to *do* everything doesn't mean that it's okay to accept or expect miraculous/magical intervention as necessary, or even realistic. For me, it undermines what I've always liked best about Donaldson's work. Despite all the magic, he still insists:

[See below, the SRD portion of my signature.]

I read his stories for inspiration and insight into what it means to be human. Magical help beyond one's knowledge or desire isn't part of that meaning, in my experience, and therefore says absolutely nothing to me regarding my core motivation for reading his work (not to mention what *he* says is "the point").

[shadowbinding shoe]

"I don't think I did it at all."

And that's exactly the problem.

Maybe that's Linden's problem in the Last Chrons. She feels like she has to do everything.

...

I know that when I do get through it I will be grateful for her perseverance and the serendipities that move the plot along when all hope seems lost, and balance out the tragedies and disasters that also come along. Because that's like life.

I think Linden's story is very moving, and the trials she encounters do indeed ring true as things real people like you and me could very well encounter (or even have encountered ... YMMV).

However, just because it's impossible for us to *do* everything doesn't mean that it's okay to accept or expect miraculous/magical intervention as necessary, or even realistic. For me, it undermines what I've always liked best about Donaldson's work. Despite all the magic, he still insists:

[See below, the SRD portion of my signature.]

I read his stories for inspiration and insight into what it means to be human. Magical help beyond one's knowledge or desire isn't part of that meaning, in my experience, and therefore says absolutely nothing to me regarding my core motivation for reading his work (not to mention what *he* says is "the point").

Actually that may be your slant on such a situation. Many people, perhaps unrealistically, expect their country or their neighbours or humanitarian organizations or their employers or even their insurance company to help them in times of need.

[Zarathustra]

Actually that may be your slant on such a situation. Many people, perhaps unrealistically, expect their country or their neighbours or humanitarian organizations or their employers or even their insurance company to help them in times of need.

Oh, I definitely have a slant (as we all do), and it's possible that I'm at least partially blind to how much I'm letting that drive my interpretation. However, I'm not sure how you connect my points to anything about country/neighbors/humanitarian organizations. I was talking about magical or miraculous intervention (the Caer Caveral DeM above). I don't think it's unrealistic to expect help from others, and I've noted multiple examples from the books where I don't think this concept is problematic at all.

But while we're on the subject ... I don't expect help from anyone who has not previously obligated themselves by a promise or a contract. I do not expect (or need) help from my neighbors, though I'd expect my wife to help me (that's one of the reasons why she's my emergency contact, and not my neighbor). I don't expect my insurance company to help me, I expect them to provide the service that's spelled out in my Certificate of Coverage, for which I've paid. I don't expect help from my country, I expect it to do the tasks spelled out in the Constitution. The only thing I would expect from an employer is a paycheck.

Now, even if we're talking about Linden's situation in the Last Chronicles (which, technically, we shouldn't in this forum), I'm not sure how any of these comparisons apply. She gets help from her friends. [I hope that's not too spoilerific.] I do expect help from my friends, but not because I think they owe me anything. Instead, I expect their help because I'd think they would want to help, just as I'd want to help them. The expectation is based on a relationship of mutual respect, admiration, fondness, etc., so that it's simply part of what it means to be friends. That's not a statement of how I think things should be, but merely a recognition of how I understand them to be. In other words, I wouldn't be offended if my friends didn't want to help me, I would simply adjust and correct my appraisal of our friendship, and realize that we weren't as good friends as I thought.

But all of this is off-topic and beyond the scope of this forum. Linden's issues with accepting help in the LC has nothing to do with the problem of Covenant not solving his own character arc in the 2nd Chrons.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I was talking about Covenant, not Linden. The miraculous intervention, as you refer to it, is the analog of a higher power (the State or other such organizations) intervening to your benefit beyond the call of duty. Obviously you don't expect such powers to give you more than your due but many people expect the high and mighty to be charitable. They beg, they go on strikes, they pray. Now obviously often enough life is disappointing and such organizations are not only uncharitable, they don't even give you your due in your times of need but we are talking about an ideal world here. The Land. Covenant repeatedly states that if he does his part some power will intervene to make what he wants possible. Maybe this incident is a more stark example of this than other incidences but it fits his stated beliefs like a hand to a glove.