Whither the Watch?

[[Syl]]

So in which forum do I post the Mhoram/Pietten slash piece I've been working on?

[kevinswatch]

-jay

[I'm Murrin]

I am certainly not saying that I am against encouraging that type of activity here, Frostheart. All I was saying is that this board has 10+ years inertia of not having that, and so introducing it into the way people engage here isn't going to be something that instantly and easily takes off. By all means keep trying, if you believe it will draw people who are interested into the community. That's exactly the kind of thing this topic is about doing. (But until that interest exists, having a near-dead forum dedicated to it becomes actively discouraging, IMO. I don't want to bury fanart - I want to see the Hall of Gifts become a hub of creative activity on the Watch for those who like it, combining prose and art contributions into one spot so that the increased activity in a forum begets more activity.)

I used myself as an example of the disinterest that comes from not getting into the fandom from that side of things, which seems to be the norm here. I do not at all think that means others shouldn't try to engage in that way.

You think there are people out there who want this stuff and just aren't getting it now because this community hasn't really been interested in catering to their interests. In that case, keep doing what you do! Show them you are into that side and want to see more people like you around. Yes, you're already trying that and are disappointed by the response; I was just saying that you can't expect a big response from people who've previously not shown interest. The way this forum is right now, that interest has to be built from scratch.


To address things more generally, here are a couple of thoughts on why we're not seeing a lot of new members appearing and sticking around:
- Inertia: we've got over a decade of entrenched behaviours and attitudes on the forum here, and a small core community that's generally accustomed to just talking amongst itself.
- Donaldson is still big enough to get a major hardback release and sell well, but I never see anyone talking about his recent books outside of this forum. I don't know who all these readers of his are, but they don't seem to be discussing it online.
- Donaldson's writing has never seemed to me to be the kind that'll easily attract new, young readers. Maybe that's just me, but the style of his prose and the harshness of Thomas Covenant's character for a lot of the first trilogy make it not the easiest to engage with. He also has to contend with being a writer from the 70s, while people tend to read mostly from the last ten years unless they're deliberately seeking out classics of the genre.
- Having this discussion at the top of our main forum. :p

I'm probably screwing up the tone on my posts in this thread. I'm not interested in treating this like a super-serious place, and I'm not meaning to be harsh to anyone. I'm just trying to put across a viewpoint on these things. I apologise for this wall of text, if it turns out I'm not actually saying anything useful.

[aliantha]

So in which forum do I post the Mhoram/Pietten slash piece I've been working on?

Mallory's.

[ussusimiel]

Some good points, Murrin.

As regards fan art and fiction I'm quite happy to have it in the SRD forums. While it is clearly a minority interest among the current membership, if it has the potential to attract new and younger members then I agree with Frosty that it should be prominent on the Home page.

I want to see the Hall of Gifts become a hub of creative activity on the Watch for those who like it, combining prose and art contributions into one spot so that the increased activity in a forum begets more activity.

I also agree with this, Murrin. I've recently joined the Writers' Circle, started some new threads in General Literature and posted in the Win Deer's Dollars thread in the Hall of Gifts, and my sense is of a low level of activity in all these separate places. I know that the Writer's Circle is special case, but I'd definitely agree with the gathering of creative activity to a more focused point. Even a general thread for creative work would give a better sense of the real level of activity.

- Donaldson is still big enough to get a major hardback release and sell well, but I never see anyone talking about his recent books outside of this forum. I don't know who all these readers of his are, but they don't seem to be discussing it online.

I think that this is an indication of the age profile of SRD's readers. I think many of them are of an age where they either haven't ever fully embraced the Internet or aren't online at all.

He also has to contend with being a writer from the 70s, while people tend to read mostly from the last ten years unless they're deliberately seeking out classics of the genre.

I also agree with this. I recently met a group of fantasy writers, not one of them had read SRD (most hadn't even heard of him ). This is why I think that actively promoting the books by word-of-mouth, Facebook, blogs etc. is so important.

u.

[Sorus]

Murrin did a good job of summing up what I came here to say, so I won't repeat it.

This is a fan site at heart - we're all here because we're SRD fans. Fan art and such should be encouraged. If you're not into that aspect of fandom, you're not required to participate.

There's room for everything here. That's one of the nice things about KW.

[rdhopeca]

I want to see the Hall of Gifts become a hub of creative activity on the Watch for those who like it, combining prose and art contributions into one spot so that the increased activity in a forum begets more activity.

I also agree with this, Murrin. I've recently joined the Writers' Circle, started some new threads in General Literature and posted in the Win Deer's Dollars thread in the Hall of Gifts, and my sense is of a low level of activity in all these separate places. I know that the Writer's Circle is special case, but I'd definitely agree with the gathering of creative activity to a more focused point. Even a general thread for creative work would give a better sense of the real level of activity.

I will continue to engage the Hall Of Gifts as well as much as I can, and put up stuff for critique and so on. I think that those of us who write would be hard-pressed to find a better initial audience for our material.

[Ananda]

Back on subject...

I think one of the problems, which I'm not sure has been addressed, is the format. The Watch isn't as busy as before because it's dated. It doesn't work very well on a smart phone (I've tried).

Suggestions:
-Kill the banner or move to the bottom of the page
-Simplify the menu items under the banner and put them on drop-down menus
-Smaller avatars.
-Add a link for all the poster details (including store items) and remove them from the posts
-Fewer icons and images
-Larger reading area and more readable standard font
-Improve link embedding and standardize embedded images.

You could make css for a responsive site that does not get rid of all these things in a larger viewport. But, I get a prompt to install an app to view this site with when I access it from a small viewport on a regular basis. I never installed it, so I don't know if it works, but, if it does, there is that. Has anyone tried to install that app? If not, maybe I will install it next time I get the option.

Also, there are free responsive themes for phpBB www.idesignmaz.com/2014/01/best-respons ... hemes.html
www.rockettheme.com/phpbb/styles
etc.
Just google phpBB responsive theme free and you get many options.

[[Syl]]

So in which forum do I post the Mhoram/Pietten slash piece I've been working on?

Mallory's.

Mallory's? I may be compelled to write thinly-veiled, NAMBLA-esque erotica, but I have standards you know.

But, yeah, what Murrin said (again). I got no problem with those who do it (looking down the bridge of my nose at people for entirely different reasons); it just doesn't float my boat.

If you think more of that kind of thing will attract more members, go to some of those forums and poach any Donaldson readers. I pulled Cyn from Bakker's 3-Seas board and Fist from an IRC chatroom (#philosophy. He went by the name Foamfollower, I believe, and I'm pretty sure I was UnbelieverDjak).

Casually drop mentions on sites like io9 or what have you in the context of whatever author discussions are going on.

Heh. We could pool together some money and get an ad in one of the spec fiction mags.

[aliantha]

io9 spamming is not a bad idea.

Also, somebody is trying to resurrect "Amazing Stories" as an online mag. Dunno if we could do something with that. I connected with a guy on Facebook who's doing some writing for them.

[Avatar]

Great post Murrin.

I'm gonna mail Vain and get him into this thread. If we're all trying to do stuff, he can damn well help out.

--A

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I got no problem with those who do it (looking down the bridge of my nose at people for entirely different reasons); it just doesn't float my boat.

I'm sorry, but...what? First you imply you loathe fanartists, fanficcers, their works, etc. and now you counter it? I'm very sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. Whatever your stance, please consider exercising some politeness. Drawing fanart doesn't make anyone an inferior person.


Also while we are at it: people, please stop these claims that fan content is posted just to get praise. I've heard that too many times on this board and I'm seriously tired of it. Nobody in my circle of internet friends does it for that. It's one form of socializing, and I should know my own motives better. Such misjudgements just throw creative people into bad light and make them appear shallow.

I find it interesting that while I’ve slowly taken steps to extend my activity to the Tank (partly because Hashi’s a sweetie <3)

Flatterer.

I would probably even change my avatar to whatever ponified version of me you create.

I'm off to a longer break now, but I'll do it after that. Are you sure you didn't mean "Flattener"? Poor Stonemage was not careful enough with one of the burly Woodhelvennin, and now she feels devastated over his fate.

[kevinswatch]

To be honest, I created this entire message board just to get praise. -jay

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Are you sure you didn't mean "Flattener"? Poor Stonemage was not careful enough with one of the burly Woodhelvennin, and now she feels devastated over his fate.

No, I chose the correct word.

The poor Woodhelvennin....but at least he died happy.

[[Syl]]

If you have to apologize twice in the same response, you should probably rethink it. If I had said I loved it, would we know be discussing my undue feelings toward you? I assure you, that is not the case.

My regard for a person has very little to do with what type of art or lit they produce. My regard for them as artists, however... By its very nature, the product is derivative and imitative, pretty much the hallmark of bad art (second only to "sloppy" which most of that stuff has in spades). I'm sure there are exceptions, but I personally don't care to wade through the dross to find it.

I find it unfortunate that my aesthetic displeases you, but I intend on changing it for you about as much as you plan on stopping your pursuits because I don't care for them.

(Written about as politefully as I could manage)

[Frostheart Grueburn]

If you have to apologize twice in the same response, you should probably rethink it. If I had said I loved it, would we know be discussing my undue feelings toward you? I assure you, that is not the case.

My regard for a person has very little to do with what type of art or lit they produce. My regard for them as artists, however... By its very nature, the product is derivative and imitative, pretty much the hallmark of bad art (second only to "sloppy" which most of that stuff has in spades). I'm sure there are exceptions, but I personally don't care to wade through the dross to find it.

I find it unfortunate that my aesthetic displeases you, but I intend on changing it for you about as much as you plan on stopping your pursuits because I don't care for them.

(Written about as politefully as I could manage)

So we clearly have nothing in common, and anything I "produce" would be sloppy dross by default in your regard. I find it amusing that you judge a person without knowing anything about them, not bothering to find out either due to existing prejudices, and at the same time choose to insult the whole fanartist base here on the Watch. Do you even draw yourself? Have a solid knowledge of art history and that most masterpieces are derivative works to begin with (Bible scenes, mythology...)?

Please do not address me again, preferably never.

[I'm Murrin]

Also while we are at it: people, please stop these claims that fan content is posted just to get praise. I've heard that too many times on this board and I'm seriously tired of it. Nobody in my circle of internet friends does it for that. It's one form of socializing, and I should know my own motives better. Such misjudgements just throw creative people into bad light and make them appear shallow.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone suggesting that in recent discussion of the subject?

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Also while we are at it: people, please stop these claims that fan content is posted just to get praise. I've heard that too many times on this board and I'm seriously tired of it. Nobody in my circle of internet friends does it for that. It's one form of socializing, and I should know my own motives better. Such misjudgements just throw creative people into bad light and make them appear shallow.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone suggesting that in recent discussion of the subject?

It started raising its head a bit back there, and I just don't want that to escalate again.
I need to calm down and think about Hashi ponies. Or Murrin ponies.

[Orlion]

Also while we are at it: people, please stop these claims that fan content is posted just to get praise. I've heard that too many times on this board and I'm seriously tired of it. Nobody in my circle of internet friends does it for that. It's one form of socializing, and I should know my own motives better. Such misjudgements just throw creative people into bad light and make them appear shallow.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone suggesting that in recent discussion of the subject?

It started raising its head a bit back there, and I just don't want that to escalate again.
I need to calm down and think about Hashi ponies. Or Murrin ponies.

Well, for what it's worth your past few posts have helped elucidate some misconceptions I've had about "fan content", and I'll be sure to try to keep that in mind for the future.

[rdhopeca]

Also while we are at it: people, please stop these claims that fan content is posted just to get praise. I've heard that too many times on this board and I'm seriously tired of it. Nobody in my circle of internet friends does it for that. It's one form of socializing, and I should know my own motives better. Such misjudgements just throw creative people into bad light and make them appear shallow.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone suggesting that in recent discussion of the subject?

I think it would be wise to distinguish between posting works here for praise versus posting for feedback. There's a big difference between putting up something for a virtual high five and ego stroke, and putting up something for honest criticism and discussion. It would seem that on a board of this type with these members that we should assume the latter on behalf of the poster. In addition, we should assume the same about the response, or lack thereof, that it is not personal and that people are not required to respond, and will do so if they feel it is necessary.

From my own vantage point, my purpose in posting my recent project is to get honest, objective feedback on whether or not the project is enjoyable and quality, not as a virtual high five, but whether it engages enough that I should continue. Validation may be a more appropriate word? I have decided to do this both to get the opinions of people I care about as well as try to further engagement on the Watch. If no one responds, so be it, that's fine with me. But I would not want people assuming I am putting my project up on the board just to get an ego boost, or reacting to it from that viewpoint.