Whither the Watch?

[[Syl]]

I'm certain we have a lot in common. We're both here, for instance. Your rather irrational response to my opinion on fan works (which, to be perfectly clear, has very little bearing on my appreciation for fans themselves) would seem to preclude it being relevant.

Look, I have a good amount of poetry in the Writers' Circle. Some of it is bound to be bad, both subjectively and objectively. I wouldn't take your opinion or lack therof on it as an indictment of my personality. Same for some of my creative writing for GT games. And if that's not your thing, it's just not. I don't care; why should you? Unless you value my opinion (unlikely), what relevance does my opinion on your work have?

Feel free to ignore anything I post, but don't presume to dictate my responses.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I'm not sure I've seen anyone suggesting that in recent discussion of the subject?

It started raising its head a bit back there, and I just don't want that to escalate again.
I need to calm down and think about Hashi ponies. Or Murrin ponies.

Well, for what it's worth your past few posts have helped elucidate some misconceptions I've had about "fan content", and I'll be sure to try to keep that in mind for the future.

Glad to hear that.

I started thinking about how many of today's books held in high regard are actually derivative works. Lord of the Rings springs instantly in mind. It has whole chunks yoinked from the Eddaic poetry and the Kalevala, down to the individual dwarf names in the Hobbit. I have sometimes called it Norse mythology fanfiction.

The Gap Cycle itself is based on Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen, as is the TCTC collection. Holt Fasner for instance is a mix of Fasolt and Fafner, the latter of whom transformed himself into a dragon. There's a hint of those in Saltheart Foamfollower as well, when you roll the name around in your mouth. During the fest, I asked SRD about his influences, and he directly nodded to me when I talked about Jörmungandr vs Worm and Wagner, for instance.

From my own vantage point, my purpose in posting my recent project is to get honest, objective feedback on whether or not the project is enjoyable and quality, not as a virtual high five, but whether it engages enough that I should continue. Validation may be a more appropriate word? I have decided to do this both to get the opinions of people I care about as well as try to further engagement on the Watch. If no one responds, so be it, that's fine with me. But I would not want people assuming I am putting my project up on the board just to get an ego boost, or reacting to it from that viewpoint.

Which project? Do you have a link?
I post stuff for discussion and concrit. I have asked for English grammar help about half a dozen times with one piece in HoG over the past one and a half years, unsuccessfully.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Your rather irrational response to my opinion on fan works

I wouldn't take your opinion or lack therof on it as an indictment of my personality. Same for some of my creative writing for GT games. And if that's not your thing, it's just not. I don't care; why should you?

I'm not American, and have grown up in a culture rather different from yours. You cannot presume that everyone thinks exactly as you do. Let's just say that in some other countries/cultures, the separation between a person's work (especially something into which they have put a great deal of..."heart-care" in the lack of a better word) and soul/personality is not as stark as you make it seem, and I for one cannot grasp this kind of detachment. So call it irrationality, whatever, but everything you pour into the piece in progress stems from your inspiration and passions, from your persona. All linked together. Very inadvisable to begin deriding someone's...products without even bothering to take a look at them first. That way, you're directly telling the person that they're a third-grade citizen in your regard.
That's how it functions on these latitudes. But you probably won't care either way.

[aliantha]

Frosty, Rob's story is in the writers' forum.

I rarely read stuff in the HoG, to be honest. I guess I should poke my head in and take a look around, huh?

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Frosty, Rob's story is in the writers' forum.

I rarely read stuff in the HoG, to be honest. I guess I should poke my head in and take a look around, huh?

Found it, and I'll read it when I get the chance.

[Sorus]

Also while we are at it: people, please stop these claims that fan content is posted just to get praise. I've heard that too many times on this board and I'm seriously tired of it. Nobody in my circle of internet friends does it for that. It's one form of socializing, and I should know my own motives better. Such misjudgements just throw creative people into bad light and make them appear shallow.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone suggesting that in recent discussion of the subject?

It started raising its head a bit back there, and I just don't want that to escalate again.
I need to calm down and think about Hashi ponies. Or Murrin ponies.

I'm sorry if what I said somewhere up there may have contributed to the escalation. I meant well. I realize that you are not fishing for praise, but praise is about all I can offer, as my own artistic talents fall somewhere in the stick-figure range. I thought it would be better to acknowledge something I enjoyed seeing, than to contribute to the impression that a thread was languishing and ignored. But I can lurk if lurking would be preferable.

I'm good at lurking.

Bring on the ponies.

[Ananda]

If you have to apologize twice in the same response, you should probably rethink it. If I had said I loved it, would we know be discussing my undue feelings toward you? I assure you, that is not the case.

My regard for a person has very little to do with what type of art or lit they produce. My regard for them as artists, however... By its very nature, the product is derivative and imitative, pretty much the hallmark of bad art (second only to "sloppy" which most of that stuff has in spades). I'm sure there are exceptions, but I personally don't care to wade through the dross to find it.

I find it unfortunate that my aesthetic displeases you, but I intend on changing it for you about as much as you plan on stopping your pursuits because I don't care for them.

(Written about as politefully as I could manage)

So we clearly have nothing in common, and anything I "produce" would be sloppy dross by default in your regard. I find it amusing that you judge a person without knowing anything about them, not bothering to find out either due to existing prejudices, and at the same time choose to insult the whole fanartist base here on the Watch. Do you even draw yourself? Have a solid knowledge of art history and that most masterpieces are derivative works to begin with (Bible scenes, mythology...)?

Please do not address me again, preferably never.

Welcome back, Syl!

[[Syl]]

Do you even draw yourself? Have a solid knowledge of art history and that most masterpieces are derivative works to begin with (Bible scenes, mythology...)?

No, I do not draw. Nor do I play music. That doesn't mean I can't have an informed opinion about whether or not the vast majority of karaoke singers are any good (hint: I side with mostly "not"). Entertaining, sure. Fun for people who are into it, probably. But actually good music?

And unless you think it's just me, check out this quote from the G.I.

I believe it was T. S. Eliot who said, "Bad writers borrow. Good writers steal." The distinction, as I see it, is that borrowing (imitation) preserves the character of the thing borrowed in an obviously recognizable form, while stealing transforms the thing stolen until it appears to belong exclusively to the thief. Tolkien's work is heavily based on such things as "Beowulf" and the Elder Eddas; but people reading LOTR don't experience it as, "Oh, here's another retelling of 'Beowulf,' or, here's another version of the 'ring' saga." If readers ever become aware of such things at all, they do so upon reflection, upon re-reading, upon study. No matter how many older sources Tolkien drew upon, he made them uniquely his own when he wrote LOTR. In contrast, it's impossible to read Brooks' "Sword of Shannara" *without* thinking, "Oh, here's a retelling of LOTR."

I hope that's clear.

So: If I became aware that another writer had stolen from my work, I would feel both pride and humility. If I became aware that another writer had *borrowed* from my work, I would feel disgust and pity. Fortunately I'm spared such reactions. I read too slowly--and therefore I'm forced to read very selectively. The moment I suspect *any* author of *borrowing* from *anyone*, I toss the book aside and read something else.

While Donaldson has no problem with fan fic, I don't see him mentioning anywhere that he likes it. In fact, he says there are probably more rewarding uses of someone's time than creating it.

As for not being American, I don't see that it matters. For one, if I was writing on a (Norse, Swedish? Sorry, memory fails) board, I'd try to fit in with that mode of communication. As a former linguist who is fluent in two languages and knowledgeable of three others, I know a thing or two about other cultures (in fact, I even have an award from the University of California for "superior understanding of a foreign culture and language"). I don't think your entire culture is as sensitive as you're suggesting, nor is the sentiment you expressed not often found in American thought, where everyone is "special," every input "valuable," and we're all unique, beautiful snowflakes.

...but everything you pour into the piece in progress stems from your inspiration and passions, from your persona. All linked together. Very inadvisable to begin deriding someone's...products without even bothering to take a look at them first. That way, you're directly telling the person that they're a third-grade citizen in your regard.

First, I didn't deride anyone's (specifically "one." Chances are it's crap, but it's just a chance, not a certainty) products, just the medium. If you're going to have a debate rather than stomp your foot and say how angry you are and rude everyone else is, keeping these distinctions clear is important. It's entirely possible you created the most original, stunning fan art of all time, but I wouldn't know. Even then, I would say that description is damning faint praise, because if you have to prefix it, does it really stand on its own as art?

Second, this is where I get confused. If your work is so special, personally meaningful, and yet fragile to unreceptive opinions, why send it out in the first place? And if it's not praise that you want, who cares what some nobody on an internet backwater things about its origin? As I alluded to earlier, do we all have to nod and tsk respectfully over the finer points of slash fic, furriedom, or cat video addictions simply because a member or potential prospective members are into it? Or do we just accept that some people ain't into that kind of thing and respect the fact that people have differences of opinion on what constitutes worthwhile expenditure of effort. I vote for the latter.

And thanks, Ananda?

[MsMary]

How many of y'all have kept the same email address for the last 10 years?

It's a nice idea, but some of the real old-timers who I miss probably aren't getting them. (Still, no reason not to do it for everybody else.)

--A

I have had the exact same address for the last .....oh.......since computers were invented. I just keeping adding addresses.

This.

I just can't bring myself to ditch the old addresses.

Though it just so happens that I actively use the address I signed onto the Watch with all those years ago.

[SoulBiter]

I have had the same email account since about 1999. It replaced my old account that I had for 6 years prior to that after I had to get rid of a stalker. Not the dangerous kind, but sadly enough a 'gaming' stalker. I played EQ (Everquest) for several years, this chick thought there was more going on than a game. I tried everything including brutal honesty and couldn't get rid of her... So I changed my online identity, moved my characters to new servers...etc etc etc.... and had to cancel any links to anything she could find. Those were easy.. I really hated giving up my email account.

So I have had two email accounts since the early 90's.

[aliantha]

Let's see...there's the main one that I've had since 2000 or so (which is set up to flag every sender who's not in my address book as suspect because that account gets so much spam)...and the work email, and the gmail one that I use for the writing business, and the one from my college alumni association that I signed up for and never use, and....

[Avatar]

Hahaha, I have 3 primary personal ones, one or two I use as throw-aways, and about 5 different work ones, depending on which hat I happen to be wearing at the moment.

--A

[sgt.null]

I have had the same email address (and password) for some 14 years now.

[Sorus]

I think my oldest email address is about 20 years old. (Remember when AOL cost $3/hr to use? Those were the days. Or not.)

As to the last time I actually checked it... I fear the spam may have achieved sentience.

[ussusimiel]

Just wanted to note that we have clocked up over 2000 posts already, which means that we will definitely crack 3000 for the month. The last time the board was that busy was April 2013. If we go over 3600, we'll have activity that is higher than any time since Sept 2012.

Just sayin'

u.

[Sorus]

Just wanted to note that we have clocked up over 2000 posts already, which means that we will definitely crack 3000 for the month. The last time the board was that busy was April 2013. If we go over 3600, we'll have activity that is higher than any time since Sept 2012.

Just sayin'

u.

Post! Post! Post!

[kevinswatch]

I will help contribute to the spam.-jay

[ussusimiel]

I will help contribute to the spam.-jay

You already have, you already have!



u.

[Sorus]

Spam? Hey, this is about quality and quantity.

If anyone needs me, I'll be in Mallory's.

[Avatar]

I think my oldest email address is about 20 years old...

My oldest (still extant) one was opened in 1996. I don't think it actually works anymore, but it is possible to log into it.

--A