Narcissism

[Linna Heartbooger]

Though mine is often more subtle than others', (or so I think) in the past it has ruled my life.

We think about its bad effects in the lives of others a lot.
We notice the symptoms in others so easily.
Can it - or being a person who is familiar with this thing within - be exploited for good?

I grew up taking my own narcissism for granted, not seeing it for what it was, and being very, very outraged by others' narcissism because of:
* the shallowness I perceived them to have and
* the harm I saw it causing others

And yet when I they to avoid their narcissism, I often go deeper into my own.
Insidious.

There's talk of culture-wide trends in narcissism.
But that's not what I hope this thread will be about.
For once, let's each make it "all about me."

I notice my narcissism when:
* Friends try to tell me, "just be yourself."
* I dread what others would think of me if I spoke my mind.
* I obsess over how to craft my words to dodge others' opposition.
* I have imaginary conversations in my head where I impress those I respect.
* I mostly know my conversations would not impress my family, coz they actually know me.

I could yak on all day about this, but frankly it's a little scary.
I’d be interested in seeing where y'all take this conversation.

How do you cope with it when you find it in yourself?
Or do you not approach it head-on, just let the rest of life catch up with you?
Will we be able to help one another? Who knows...

(With acknowledgement to StevieG, whose format for the "Fear" thread I sought to copy almost point by point. I also feel like I should acknowledge half a dozen others for what they've said before, but then that gets awkward.)

[Orlion]

I have a few thoughts on this. A "healthy dose of narcissism" I would call "self-confidence". This is not necessarily a bad thing to have. In fact, I'd say to function properly, you need self-confidence, otherwise you are always spending/wasting energy second guessing yourself.

When narcissism becomes a problem is when you essentially become "the source of truth". In this case, you know better than everyone else and/or only you understand what is going on. This is where narcissism becomes the most problematic for you and others, since it could lead to issues such as, say, not vaccinating your children against preventable diseases or not seeking professional help for mental issues. You essentially set yourself above the accumulation of all human knowledge and experience.

Narcissism as vanity is certainly problematic, but not so much as narcissism as arrogance/pretension. Some vanity is fine, but too much and you become, as you said, shallow.

The best way to combat narcissism sometimes is to step back from it: could you be wrong? Does it ultimately even matter? And you have to be willing to admit that you can be at fault... you have to accept that some part of your outlook is probably wrong and that you will have to change it once it is pointed out to you.

[Linna Heartbooger]

When narcissism becomes a problem is when you essentially become "the source of truth". In this case, you know better than everyone else and/or only you understand what is going on.

Thank you.

[Avatar]

Haha, not sure which thread to reply in.

Agree with Orlion. It's only narcissism when you are closed to the possibility that you may be wrong.

I don't really see any of those things you mentioned as being particularly narcissistic.

--A

[aliantha]

Linna, if you're a narcissist, I'm the queen of England.

I'm looking over your list again, and I think you've misunderstood what narcissism is. I think of it as the extreme end of a spectrum of behavior, kind of like this:

Self-sacrificing--------Balance--------Narcissistic

Self-sacrificing people, to my mind, are those who *never* put their own needs first. It's someone who always takes care of everyone else to the detriment of their own health and well-being, someone who always lets the other person win the argument, etc. *This is not healthy.*

I posted the clinical definition of narcissism in the other thread. But basically, it's someone who considers themselves to be so special that everyone else should cater to their own needs all the time.

Interestingly, I think both mindsets come from the same place: a shaky sense of self and an ingrained belief or suspicion that they don't really matter. The self-sacrificer responds by trying to make herself indispensible; the narcissist responds by demanding that others give in to her every whim.

In looking over your first post, I'd venture to say that you're closer to the self-sacrificer end of the spectrum. If you're worried about opening your mouth because people would then realize that you have needs and opinions, too? Yeah. *So* not a narcissist.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I see... you're viewing that sort of a spectrum.

I don't think I see it quite that way, but I would definitely say that each of us needs to look to his/her own interests... "but not only to his or her own interests, but also to the interests of others," to steal someone else's wording.

Interestingly, I think both mindsets come from the same place: a shaky sense of self and an ingrained belief or suspicion that they don't really matter. The self-sacrificer responds by trying to make herself indispensible; the narcissist responds by demanding that others give in to her every whim.

I agree with this a lot.

I think you might be right about me.
I've done more than my share (haha, get it?) of "sacrificing" only to find out that when the other person didn't reciprocate I was put out.
And then.. is that really what was orig. meant by "sacrificial love"?


So then, what is the right word for what I was thinking?
The person who always feels like she's "on stage" and like she always has to say the right thing, yet deep down feels a bit like a phoney?

[Vraith]

So then, what is the right word for what I was thinking?
The person who always feels like she's "on stage" and like she always has to say the right thing, yet deep down feels a bit like a phoney?

That sounds a lot more like impostor syndrome, or some features of it/connected to it.

[aliantha]

"Impostor syndrome" sounds about right. Like you don't believe, deep down, that you deserve the success or accolades (or respect or love) that you've been given by other people.

[wayfriend]

Social anxiety is the fear of social situations and the interaction with other people that can automatically bring on feelings of self-consciousness, judgment, evaluation, and scrutiny. Put another way, social anxiety is the fear and anxiety of being judged and evaluated negatively by other people, leading to feelings of inadequacy, embarrassment, humiliation, and depression.

If a person usually becomes anxious in social situations, but seems fine when they are alone, then "social phobia" may be the problem.

[Dondarion]

Linna wrote:

So then, what is the right word for what I was thinking?
The person who always feels like she's "on stage" and like she always has to say the right thing, yet deep down feels a bit like a phoney?

I think what Linna might be trying to say here is not that this person might be experiencing a bit of “stage fright”, but that she has perhaps let herself develop a certain amount of unchecked self-importance, to the point that she even feels the responsibility of living up to that when she’s around others, and has now come to recognize that this is not who she truly is, but nonetheless may at times allow it to continue anyway, and so it becomes a “phoniness” to her.

To me, this is a wonderful interchange and expression of becoming aware of a trait I am sure we all have to some degree, probably based on our personal circumstances (beauty, wealth, friends, etc). At some point, when we begin to “notice” the world, and open or eyes and perspective to the realities of what we as humans face every day, and how hard it is (and yet how wonderful it can be), we simply change on the interior, but not always on the exterior right away. There’s a lag on that part, because of the human ego. When we let that part go (sort of like a conversion, or a letting go of the self), then we truly won’t care (as much anyway) about all this. There will be remnants, there to remind us for our own good (that there is always a struggle to overcome, and that we can overcome it), but not to control us.

Linna wrote:

I've done more than my share (haha, get it?) of "sacrificing" only to find out that when the other person didn't reciprocate I was put out.
And then.. is that really what was orig. meant by "sacrificial love"?

I have to laugh ‘cuz I do the same thing! Even when I don’t think I am doing it, I catch myself in a moment of honesty, and I know that I am. I think true self-sacrifice that comes from love for others (for the mere sake that they need love just as we need love) does not seek reciprocation, but is given for its own sake (which returns its own satisfaction anyway). What a worthy ideal, and one that I believe we are each meant to recognize as a reality via the course of our human journey.

[aliantha]

See, it's this idea of "unchecked self-importance" that I have trouble with. On one hand, yes, people can be narcissistic jerks. But on the other hand, if something in your upbringing or your environment is constantly telling you to put others first, you could be beating yourself up for a problem that isn't there.

Women in particular fall into this trap. Some facets of society still expect us to be everybody's caretaker, even to our own detriment: being too busy to eat, not sleeping enough because we have to get all the housework done while the baby is napping (or the kids are at school, or it's finally quiet because everyone else is in bed, or...). And if we try to demand a little time for ourselves, we can be accused of being narcissistic by the people who have come to expect us to be at their beck and call.

But that's not narcissism. That's simply taking care of yourself the way you would take care of someone else.

[Vraith]

But that's not narcissism. That's simply taking care of yourself the way you would take care of someone else.

Truth. There is a difference between only caring for yourself and taking care of yourself.
And peeps can conflate them. [in self-image and in judging others]. I'm not sure you're correct that it's more common for women to be caught up [whether by their own traps/judgments or others]---you could well be, I just don't know---but it sure seems more noticeable/visible/recognizable thing as it affects women.

I should ask my mom about narcissism...it's part of her field. But I probably won't. My personal experience is three flavors of narcissism---though two of them are...hmmm....pseudo?
The true one is in the line of psychopaths.
The first pseudo is in the "imposter" family...a self-definition/identity issue.
The second pseudo is shielding. The self-centering is the management structure/plan that keeps sensitivity and pain from becoming fragility.

[wayfriend]

I don't think impostor syndrome applies unless it is a response to a surfeit of success. It's IMO an inability to internalize accomplishments.

Worrying about how you present yourself, in all the different ways you can do this (not 'being yourself', rehearsing conversations, fear of 'opening up'), is normal, even healthy, unless it becomes disproportionate or debilitating, and then it's just anxiety.

Narcissism is not "thinking about yourself". Even if you think about yourself a lot.

In fact, being concerned about others, even it it's just concern over what they think of you, is the antithesis of narcissim, isn't it? Narcissists don't worry whether people think that they are awesome - they know that they are. Their concern for others is about whether others respect and reward their awesomeness sufficiently.

[aliantha]

Right, Way. And it may be that if you think you might be narcissistic, you're pretty definitely not.

[Vraith]

Right, Way. And it may be that if you think you might be narcissistic, you're pretty definitely not.

Heh...for a real one? No, I think they know it. They just don't think it is bad/insulting to be one [though they may well find pretending NOT to be a brilliant strategy].

Way, I don't think the "imposter" is actually an narcissist, either.
I did say "pseudo." It's messy, though dealing with inside/outside, appearance/reality, self- and other-judgement.

[wayfriend]

Way, I don't think the "imposter" is actually an narcissist, either.

I know. What I was trying to say is that I didn't think it applied to the problem as Linna describes it.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I am always myself. If other people don't like it then they can sod off.

I always think I am correct unless I am certain that I am not. Strangely enough, even then I wind up being correct so I don't have to worry about it too much.

[Avatar]

My solipsist leanings probably lend themselves toward a flavour of narcissism. Still, I'm so wonderful that that is scarcely surprising.

--A

[aliantha]

(throws up her hands)

[wayfriend]

(throws up her hands)

(Avatar will interpret that as you doing a one-man wave just for him.)